General Discussion Thread #2

[Carol70]

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/50-000-for-oscar-s-bullet-door-1.1483298#.UTnYFdaG39M

LOL, we wont be waiting long for someone to cave!!!

 

[DriveBy]

FYI, she is not a politican and she is highly regarded in SA. Quite frankly, I absolutely agree with her. I dont think there is another country that has the high rate of home invasions that ends in extreme violence and levels of cruelty. What kind of person has the mentality to pepper spray a 4mo old baby while he is sleeping...and it appears the victims were cooperating with the robbers? Cry the Beloved Country indeed!

And as an aside, Mr Zuma has a cheek to say we are a "peace loving nation" when he himself felt justified enough to use 250 million ZAR of tax payers money to do security upgrades to his private residence. I wont even go into what that money could have been used for when his very own people are starving and living in extreme poverty. Its a disgrace.

I stand by my previously stated opinion - and this one: "Once a Politician always a Politician." Power, control, influence, manipulation of events to achieve objectives, either for herself or for those office holders who share her goals, etc... no matter how highly regarded she is in retirement from office and not being married to an office holder anymore.

It was an Off Topic post anyway, why all of the replies to one opinion?


Quote: "I dont think there is another country that has the high rate of home invasions that ends in extreme violence"

Care to do some research on that and let us know how South Africa compares to other African nations or say Brazil or something? I mean a more objective statement. And I would be extremely interested in examples of that happening in the fortress like communities, such as OP's?

 

[Carol70]

<modsnip>

And if you have followed this thread from the beginning, you will see there have been a few examples of atrocities against suburban middle class families who's homes have been invaded as well as discussions about South African security estates in SA. And trying to compare South Africa against other African countries is absurd, most of our neighbours are in the midst of their own civil wars with people dropping like flies from famine, genocide etc etc. Half the African population now resides in South Africa due to the horrendous conditions of their own countries among them Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Sierra Leone, DRC etc. but I dont hear of babies being pepper sprayed, little boys being drowned in boiling water, families being hacked to death with panga's so that some thieves can steal their telly and a few cellphones .. the list of cruelty is endless against people who supposedly live in a FIRST world country.

 

[believe09]

No one should be insulting another sleuther-WS is a heavily moderated board and we like it because we dont allow free for all's on our fellow posters. The policy is to attack the post, not the poster. If there is a post that seems outside of TOS or is abusive, click on the red and white triangle in the top corner of the post. A mod will review it.

None of us need to agree but we need to respect each other's POV. :grouphug:

 

[DriveBy]

OK I'll stop yelling......will you stop being derogatory about my posts? bet your ears don't hurt half as much as my feelings. TRUCE.

I did not have any intention to be hurtful. If you feel that way then I apologize to you.

I personally do not like to debate, just discuss what I have learned, what I know, or what I believe; but all you did was tell me why what I believe is not realistic, true, proven, etc...

 

[Patticake]

Excerpted:

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pistorius-cop-We-did-the-best-we-could-20130308

Pistorius cop: We did the best we could

Johannesburg - The former lead investigator in the murder case against paralympian Oscar Pistorius believes police management could have assisted in the case a lot sooner, it was reported on Friday.

"Right from the beginning they knew how serious and high profile this case was," Hilton Botha told The Times.

"They could have helped a lot earlier than they did.... Having a senior general on the case would have seen things being done and reports completed a lot sooner."

-snip-

"Everything I did was above board and in line with the best international policing practices," Botha was quoted as saying. "We worked with what we had and did the best we could."

At the Pistorius bail hearing, advocate Barry Roux tried to force Botha to admit that he bungled his initial investigation.

Gauteng police spokesperson Brigadier Neville Malila dismissed Botha's assertions that he was not given assistance.

.

 

[liverpoollou]

I did not have any intention to be hurtful. If you feel that way then I apologize to you.

I personally do not like to debate, just discuss what I have learned, what I know, or what I believe; but all you did was tell me why what I believe is not realistic, true, proven, etc...

Let's not get into an argument. I have never been on a forum of any kind before so I am just feeling my way around. I am quite conscious that some of my ideas in the cold light of day are stupid.

I am also not computer literate......in fact I did come across an article which I wanted to post to you but don't know how to do it......But I will get help this evening and hopefully post it.

IIRC it was quoting the Defence who said Reeva was still alive when Oscar picked her up but by the time he reached the bottom of the stairs she had died. I just wondered (and I'm not being funny) where did you get the information from that Reeva died 30 minutes later? I know Oscar said he tried to do some first aid on her but apparently she was already dead.

Everybody keep calm (including me).

 

[DriveBy]

in fact I did come across an article which I wanted to post to you but don't know how to do it......But I will get help this evening and hopefully post it.

.

Go to the address of the website that you want to share, at the top of your screen. Highlight that address, copy it, and then paste that address in your post.

 

[liverpoollou]

Go to the address of the website that you want to share, at the top of your screen. Highlight that address, copy it, and then paste that address in your post.

Thanks for instruction. Here goes.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/door-is-key-to-oscar-defence-1.1476164

 

[whiterum]

]I posted early about how it is impossible that Reeva died in the toilet closet, she died downstairs after bleeding for approximately 30 minutes, she was alive for a long time. I point this out because some have become confused with all of the conversation and think that she died after being shot, in the toilet closet. She didn't, even OP admits that she died downstairs "

Reggie Perumal, OP's hired forensic pathologist confirms that RS still alive and bleeding when OP lifted and carried her downstairs by the trail of blood at the crime scene.

"

There was a lot of blood on the scene. We can tell when Oscar picked Reeva up by the blood from her hair swipes".

&#8220;And from the blood markings we can see she was still alive at that time.

&#8220;There were also swipes on the wall where he carried her down the steps. And we can tell that by the time she got to the bottom of the steps she was already dead.&#8221;

That doesn't surprise me, lifting and carrying a critically injured and bleeding woman when he knew help was on its way and in fact had just arrived in time to witness his efforts to save before he reached the bottom step.

 

[DriveBy]

I just wondered (and I'm not being funny) where did you get the information from that Reeva died 30 minutes later? I know Oscar said he tried to do some first aid on her but apparently she was already dead.
.

The first call about this by Pistorious went out to someone at his estate at about 3:20 - (though he also called a bunch of other people, including his father and brother, and both of them arrived before paramedics did) - and the neighbors were awakened by sounds of arguing, shot(s), screaming, and more shots. The paramedics arrived at approximately 3:50 AM. So approx. 30 minutes.

I may be off by a few minutes or left out a detail. Someone else can fact check me on this, I don't feel like researching it again.

 

[liverpoollou]

The first call about this by Pistorious went out to someone at his estate at about 3:20 - (though he also called a bunch of other people, including his father and brother, and both of them arrived before paramedics did) - and the neighbors were awakened by sounds of arguing, shot(s), screaming, and more shots. The paramedics arrived at approximately 3:50 AM. So approx. 30 minutes.

I may be off by a few minutes or left out a detail. Someone else can fact check me on this, I don't feel like researching it again.

Fine, it was your saying she was alive downstairs that made me think it's possible he is telling the truth. I am not necessarily going to stick with this view, may change my mind as things develop. I can see it either way at the moment.

 

[JBean]

PSA: getting entirely too personal in here.
Some posts were removed-more may be.
Please- the discussion is never about each other. If a post violates do not respond.
Alert on the post and scroll past it.

POST LANDS AT RANDOM ON THE THREAD

 

[whiterum]

Let's not get into an argument. I have never been on a forum of any kind before so I am just feeling my way around. I am quite conscious that some of my ideas in the cold light of day are stupid.

I am also not computer literate......in fact I did come across an article which I wanted to post to you but don't know how to do it......But I will get help this evening and hopefully post it.

IIRC it was quoting the Defence who said Reeva was still alive when Oscar picked her up but by the time he reached the bottom of the stairs she had died. I just wondered (and I'm not being funny) where did you get the information from that Reeva died 30 minutes later? I know Oscar said he tried to do some first aid on her but apparently she was already dead.

Everybody keep calm (including me).

So sorry Liverpoollou, I had posted the above before I read your post.

 

[DriveBy]

Thanks for instruction. Here goes.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/door-is-key-to-oscar-defence-1.1476164

“There was a lot of blood on the scene. We can tell when Oscar picked Reeva up by the blood from her hair swipes. And from the blood markings we can see she was still alive at that time. There were also swipes on the wall where he carried her down the steps. And we can tell that by the time she got to the bottom of the steps she was already dead.”

I am equally inclined to both take this and push it aside. Because I have read other accounts - namely by OP - saying she was breathing, gurgling sounds, blood all around her downstairs = alive, etc... You should read a bit more to find what is on the record for us now that you threw this bomb. I would do it for you, but I am looking at another issue right now.

 

[DriveBy]

URBAN FORTRESSES
Gated communities as a reaction to crime

Do you think that the Judge who will hear this case knows about this:

One of the consequences of the recognition that the state cannot protect the life and property of all citizens—especially in developing highcrime societies—has been the development of private alternatives to crime prevention and control. Gated communities are one such popular alternative.

Most factors associated with high crime rates characterise cities to a greater extent than small towns. Population density, for example, is thought to be associated with crime, in that greater concentrations of people lead to competition for limited resources, greater stress and increased conflict. Other factors which characterize urbanisation, such as overcrowding and high levels of gang activity, are mainly evident in urban areas and are known to be related to criminal activity.

levels of crime in large urban centres were considerably higher than the national average (Figure 2). In the Johannesburg police area, for example, the crime rate was over three times the national average. That is, in 2000 the average resident of the Johannesburg police area was over three times more likely of becoming a victim of a recorded crime than the average South African.

Recorded crime levels vary between cities. Johannesburg has significantly higher levels of crime than other large South African cities. For example, in 2000 just over 18,300 crimes were recorded per 100,000 residents of the Johannesburg police area, compared to 8,361 for Port Elizabeth.

For many urban South Africans security measures in and around their homes is not enough. They want to live in a more secure environment in terms of the larger area surrounding their homes. In this way the idea of ‘total security’ is becoming increasingly popular. This has led to the increase of security villages and enclosed neighbourhoods in urban areas.

In South Africa security villages have a variety of uses, ranging from smaller townhouse complexes to larger office parks and luxury estates. The distinguishing factor of security villages is that they are purpose built by private developers, with security being the crucial design requirement, although lifestyle requirements are also important.

Larger security estates (similar to the horizontal condominiums of Alphaville) are mostly located on the urban periphery where bigger portions of land are available, as well as natural elements such as rivers, dams, and patches of trees which can enhance the layout of such estates. These estates offer an entire lifestyle package in a secure environment. Security estates include a range of services (garden services, refuse removal), and a variety of facilities and amenities (golf courses, squash courts, cycle routes, hiking routes, equestrian routes, water activities).

Certain types of gated communities in South Africa, due to their nature, size and location, are starting to contribute to urban sprawl, fragmentation and separation. They are creating physical barriers in many South African cities. As gated communities increase (both in numbers and size), so is their impact. The consequences for cities and large metropolitan areas in South Africa could be divisive

http://www.iss.co.za/pubs/ASR/11No4/Landman.pdf

 

[Zinn]

Ok. OP's team claims that Reeva went to the bathroom while he was on the patio bringing the fan inside and he did not see her get out of bed and walk to the toilet closet. Then he heard the "noise," and etc... As proof of that they point to the autopsy finding of her bladder being completely empty, so they say she definitely had to be sitting on the toilet, finishing, when OP opened fire, hitting her with three bullets in the toilet stall.

I posted early about how it is impossible that Reeva died in the toilet closet, she died downstairs after bleeding for approximately 30 minutes, she was alive for a long time. I point this out because some have become confused with all of the conversation and think that she died after being shot, in the toilet closet. She didn't, even OP admits that she died downstairs "in his arms."

In autopsy the volume of urine in the bladder is always measured. Even if only a small amount is there it will be collected and measured, with great accuracy. The procedure involves introducing a known amount of saline or water in to the bladder and then evacuating the contents and taking the measurement.

In 20% of all deaths the bladder voids in the last 2-3 minutes of life, leaving the bladder completely empty. In the remaining 80% of all deaths there is a volume of urine in the bladder. The body continuously produces urine, approximately 1 ml per minute.

At death the body shuts down all functions, no more urine production. But Reeva was alive for 30 minutes after being shot three times in the toilet closet! So whether she went to the bathroom to pee or not there should have been at least 30 ml of urine in her bladder. But since it was completely empty, she had to have voided her bladder in the last 2-3 minutes of her life, downstairs.

So why she was in the bathroom is still open to what I believe, she fled there and was hiding. IMO

I'm really enjoying your posts, and this one is no exception. Many interesting points. However, I don't recall the defense claiming she was sitting on the toilet "finishing" when she was shot. If they did, please correct me. They did say she had gone to the toilet to empty her bladder and the empty bladder found at autopsy was evidence of this. They also acknowledged she was "dressed" at the time, as claimed by the prosecution. But I don't know if the significance of her being "dressed" is that she was A) wearing street clothes, or B) fully clothed, meaning her shorts were buttoned/zipped/pulled up. The prosecution didn't elaborate, as far as I know. Either way, I suspect the defense will argue she became alarmed by OP's warning, pulled up her pants and locked the door before being shot.

What you've said about how much urine should have been present, even if she'd urinated in the bathroom, is very interesting. The defense did concede to the magistrate that she could have emptied her bladder due to the trauma of being shot, but I assumed they meant at the time she was shot. I hadn't thought about the time after that. Great point.

---------------------------------
All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[whiterum]

“There was a lot of blood on the scene. We can tell when Oscar picked Reeva up by the blood from her hair swipes. And from the blood markings we can see she was still alive at that time. There were also swipes on the wall where he carried her down the steps. And we can tell that by the time she got to the bottom of the steps she was already dead.”

I am equally inclined to both take this and push it aside. Because I have read other accounts - namely by OP - saying she was breathing, gurgling sounds, blood all around her downstairs = alive, etc... You should read a bit more to find what is on the record for us now that you threw this bomb. I would do it for you, but I am looking at another issue right now.

Does make you wonder why RP felt the need to make this so called blood evidence public especially since he then added that his lips were sealed until he testifies at the trial.

 

[DriveBy]

Does make you wonder why RP felt the need to make this so called blood evidence public especially since he then added that his lips were sealed until he testifies at the trial.

The website for OP's Fortress Community says that there are two hospitals nearby; one 6 km and another 11 km away. I'm wondering why, if it looked as bad as it did (gunshot wound to the head) didn't he just rush her to the nearest hospital, minutes away, instead of calling his family to come over, carrying her around the house with no seeming purpose, etc... But I do have my thoughts.

 

[liverpoollou]

I have been trying to find articles pinpointing when Reeva actually died. Not much success yet.....just the Defence claim that she died before Oscar reached bottom of stairs.

Anyway, I did come across this link

http://metro.co.uk/2013/02/17/oscar...enkamp-on-instinct-claims-his-father-3481185/

I am only posting this because I have mentioned before that I had read numerous articles stating Reeva was shot in head, HAND, hip and head and one bullet went through her head and hand. The bloodied blonde hair found in Reeva's hand that was mentioned in my previous link would suggest she had her hand to her head when shot.

Don't know if this means anything or not.