General Discussion Thread #4

[Pisto_lius]

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/2/20/15624/2229/crimenews/Oscar-Pistorius-Bail-Hearing-Day-2

How can a witness be told by Botha that they got it wrong? Don't you accept it until it is verified by another witness or check with evidence. Surely it was too early for Botha to say this. So why did he say it? I used to think he was trying to hold back evidence until they heard OP's version.

He apparently made a mistake about the distance of 600 metres so he could have also made a mistake about the number of shots.

But didn't another witness verify that they also heard 3 shots then 10 minutes silence then 3 more shots.

One witness was apparently only 50 metres away but this came out in the media later.

I realise they have said that they did not find six bullets but like the one found in the toilet bowl, they could have been picked up but then thrown away by someone in OP's team.

It will be important for them to prove that the 3 bullets which went through the door actually were the ones which hit Reeva's body.

Am I making any sense here?

BIB - Look at this image of OP's confiscated pistol



It looks like the trigger is pulled back. This could means the magazine was empty.

This type of gun has 6 rounds of ammunition in the magazine.... And this would fit to what whitnesses heard

 

[Pisto_lius]

I also have been thinking on this photo but can't find the answers to the questions in my mind..Altering witness statements, number of shots and cartridges that we dont know exactly , Reevas changing place from here to there make it even more confusing perh. delibaretly .

But this photo should tell us what really happened imo. We have Reeva's wounds on her right hip, right arm, right hand and head.
*As Pisto mentioned above in the first shot she couldn't be at the sitting position on the floor next to the toilet as her hip would be behind the bowl and there are no crashes on the toilet bowl..
*She possib. wasn't sitting on the toilet as there is not much blood on the right side of the toilet.
*And to me this scene just doesn't look like Reeva was pulled/dragged
on the floor.. There is no such trace on the floor..
*Also those three stickers on the floor .. they possib. indicate the places
where cartridges were found but isn't it odd that those three are so close to each other? That doesn't make sense.. And if she was dragged to the bathroom part how could those cartridges stay still there ? Her body should have scattered them..

JMO

I agree with your opion regarding the BIB.

That this three stickers could indicate the places where the cartridges were found was my first though because it were three. But you're right - that doesn't make sense because

a) her body should have scattered them when she was dragged to the bathroom

b) they also should have been scattered when OP opened the door if the cartridges were so close to the door.

But I also don't believe the forensics marked bloody drag marks on the floor because they are clearly visible even without marking.

So, my next idea is that this might be the (paper) back side of three of the marks forensics taped/used to other places ??? Sorry, but I don't know the right english term for this, hope you although understand what I mean .

Maybe these (paper) back sides fell on the floor and they forgot to collect them?

 

[Estelle]

I agree with your doubts regarding all the blood spatters. So, let me summarize my doubts about this once more – even I’m not a forensic expert

A - Blood stains on the sofa

1. The photos show no sofa under the part of the stairs without wall. So where the sofa was located if there were blood stains on it?

2. There were quite a lot of blood spatter on the sofa - spread over a fairly wide range.

3. If this blood dropped down on the sofa when OP carried Reeva downstairs, her head would have hung over the railing. But directly before and after the area with stair rail were walls against which her head then would be beaten.


B – Blood stains on the stairs

1. If the blood of Reeva's head wound dropped down (on the sofa), as OP carried Reeva downstairs, then her head must have been on the left side of the stairs (view from bottom of the stairs).

2. The photo of the stairs shows only occasional splashes of blood on the lower stair treads - and all these blood spatters are on the right side of the stair treads (view from the bottom of the stairs). There is not a single spot of blood on the right side of the stairs.

3. There is not a single spot of blood on the wall at the bottom region of the stairs.


C – Blood stains on the wall

1. It’s unknown what area show the blood spatter on the wall.

2. But if you compare the photo of the stairs and the photo of the blood spatter on the wall, the blood spatter on the wall could be at the top of the staircase area. Both photos show a dark shadow - the stairs photo right above, the wall photo on the right side. Because the stairs were photographed from below, it may be that these blood stains are not visible on the stairs photo because this photo doesn’t show the top of the wall.

3. The blood spatter on the wall are (for me) to widely dispersed than they are incurred when OP carried Reeva downstairs. Her body was weighty. A man with two prosthetic legs and wearing an unconscious body in his arms is likely to have difficulty keeping balance while going down the stairs. So, even if OP swayed when he carried Reeva downstairs he wouldn't have wavered as strong as her head dangled back and forth so strong that there were this kind of widely scattered blood spatters on the wall, because then OP certainly would lost his balance.


Because of all that, I don't believe anything OP or his DT want make us believe about what happened.

In my opinion there was a dispute and fight outside the bedroom.

- They weren't in bed - not for a second - because both were dressed (as paramedic said).

- Reeva wasn't shot in the toilet but previously somewhere else in the house.

- Maybe then she dragged herself with her last strength in the toilet but she no longer had the strength to lock the door.

- Thus, OP could easily open the door and saw Reeva was already dead on the floor.

- Then he called Stander and his family members. Some of them came to the house within a few minutes and together they invented the story of the burglar to save Oscar's neck.

- They prepared the crime scene suitable to their story - but made a lot of mistakes.

- And only just before someone phoned paramedics OP carried Reeva downstairs. Maybe they even told him what he should do, so it became blood spatters on the wall downstairs to fit their story.

I agree with the possibility of this scenario.

But you have not explained the blood on the sofa.

2. There was quite a lot of blood spatter on the sofa - spread over a fairly wide range.

How did it get there?

I am coming to a new hypothesis that Reeva could have been trying to leave the house (as that sofa is near the front door) and her car door was open apparently so he shot her downstairs and he later put the body there to cover up that initial bleeding.

She then either sat on the sofa later or he laid her there (hence the blood there) to think about what he was going to do next. Then he either carried her up the stairs or she went up to the toilet herself depending on the gravity of her injuries.

I agree with you about the possibility that that toilet door was not locked because either he had put her there himself as she was already dead or she dragged herself there and then died.

- Maybe then she dragged herself with her last strength in the toilet but she no longer had the strength to lock the door.

- Thus, OP could easily open the door and saw Reeva was already dead on the floor.

He then closed/locked the toilet door and did his cover up by firing three (or four) more shots at her dead or dying body through the door up to 17 minutes later.

He then got his cricket bat to knock down the door. But why was it bloodied?

He then washed his hands and put the two mobile phones in the bathroom after encrypting them. I don't think she had a chance to make an urgent call.

He later carried her body down the stairs and placed it where the first blood stains were on the floor at the bottom of the stairs.

I used to think of such a scenario in the early days but another poster used to tell me that for some reason to do with the blood, Reeva would have been alive while he carried her down the stairs. But I have never really believed that. Nor have I believed that no urine in her body meant she had gone to the toilet as I suspected she was already dead in there.

From early on, I saw this as a "cover up" case and not to take things as being factual as it seemed intentional and he and his team had plenty of time to tamper with evidence and concoct a feasible intruder story.

Like you, I am not a forensics expert. But I think this crime did have two stages - the murder and then the cover up.

 

[Estelle]

I did not react aggressively.

As I noted there never were any steroids.
I also noted that it is not a crime for cops to remove evidence.

Why are you reacting aggressively?

Shane, how would you know if there were any non-herbal steroids there if they had been removed from the crime scene by OP's team (not police)?

IMO to act in the way he did, OP would have to have been drunk, on steroids or something else or mentally ill to act in a way that could ruin his career? Surely if they were not getting on, it would have been better to say goodbye to each other!

 

[whiterum]

According to an annotated photo in Beeld, the stickers on the floor are drag marks - 'sleepmerke' in Afrikaans
http://www.beeld.com/nuus/2013-06-01-foto-ontstel-oscar-se-span

This is the post I referred to earlier about the stickers on the floor indicating drag marks.

 

[Estelle]

BIB - Look at this image of OP's confiscated pistol



It looks like the trigger is pulled back. This could means the magazine was empty.

This type of gun has 6 rounds of ammunition in the magazine.... And this would fit to what whitnesses heard

You are absolutely brilliant.

I know nothing about guns but I am convinced now about the possibility of six bullets.

 

[Estelle]

BIB - Look at this image of OP's confiscated pistol



It looks like the trigger is pulled back. This could mean the magazine was empty.

This type of gun has 6 rounds of ammunition in the magazine.... And this would fit to what whitnesses heard

This is the post I referred to earlier about the stickers on the floor indicating drag marks.

So OP did drag the body out of the toilet and they are not where three cartridges were found. Is that a correct conclusion now?

 

[whiterum]

So OP did drag the body out of the toilet and they are not where three cartridges were found. Is that a correct conclusion now?

I think Estelle, Botha said the crime-scene noted three casings found on the bathroom floor one casing in the passageway at the bathroom entrance. The cartridges (bullets) I wouldn't think would be found in that position. Those drag smears on the floor could be anything, who knows he didn't drag her in bleeding.

Also who knows if Reeva ever locked that door. Surely the crime scene forensics would have found the key in the unlocked position on the outside of the door. Could be in order to explain that away and support his locked door scenario, OP claims he supposedly lifted the key from the floor and unlocked the door.
She could have been placed there injured or unconscious before he shot her through the door, then dragged her out to support his story. Even this suspect bail hearing claim of '' no sign of assault' I would think very hard to determine with bullet shattered bones , skull , hip and arm and the massive bruising that would incur over her whole body. Even OP lifting her and carrying her is nothing more than a cover up IMO.

 

[whiterum]

Shane, how would you know if there were any non-herbal steroids there if they had been removed from the crime scene by OP's team (not police)?

IMO to act in the way he did, OP would have to have been drunk, on steroids or something else or mentally ill to act in a way that could ruin his career? Surely if they were not getting on, it would have been better to say goodbye to each other!

Also Estelle, just because something is in a ' testicles exposium' or whatever container with label, doesn't mean that's what it actually is. How can the DT positively claim it was not steroids just because it's in the herbal substance container and may appear to be it, this in no way proves that it actually is that herbal substance, it could be anything. OP is certainly not going to have a container with a steroids label on it about his house, who knows it could be a cover. An old neighbour of mine used to hide her vodka in a medicine bottle so her daughter would not know she was drinking lol.

Botha said the contents had been sent for testing, so he could not possibly know for sure what this substance was either. Considering how long these tests seem to take in SA , it could be a while before true results are returned, if they ever are.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

What about that complex's cameras? I would assume that the cameras should be on esp at nights for security purposes. We saw Reevas footage in her car to begin with , so those cameras should have recorded all those people arrivals with their timings unless that CD is lost.

*Were the cams recording that night?
*If not, were they recording the previous nights?
*WHo was in charge of that cams and CD's?Was it the Estate Manager?
*Are there any other entrances to that complex to avoid cams?
*There must be some street cameras also .They should all be checked IMO..

Just my opinions ...

Reply to my own post

Yes. The cameras were recording all night long prob... So everyone's arrival time should have been recorded there Below is the footage of paramedics captured..



http://www.zimbio.com/Oscar+Pistori...kr/Oscar+Pistorius+Chaos+police+station+Blade

In the article it says
On camera: Miss Steenkamp was pictured on a camera pulling into the guarded entrance of the Silver Woods estate in her Mini Cooper car just before 6pm on the day before Valentine's Day.
Ten minutes later, Paralympic champion Pistorius is also shown arriving in his white BMW.
He uses a lane that is further away from the CCTV camera and it does not capture his facial expression.

 

[Pisto_lius]

I agree with the possibility of this scenario.

But you have not explained the blood on the sofa.

2. There was quite a lot of blood spatter on the sofa - spread over a fairly wide range.

How did it get there?

BIB - I tried to explain my opinion regarding the blood spatter on the sofa weeks before but this isn't an accusation , because of the lots of postings no one can remember every single.

So, here once more :

IMO - the blood stains on the sofa fit a lot more to the theory that there was a battle at the foyer where Reeva got the first shot before she ran upstairs where she got others or maybe the final shot to her head.

Maybe she was hit in the hip or arm, ran through the foyer, past the sofa (that was located near the stairs), trying to dodge Oscar's attacs while her blood sprayed on the sofa. And for this scenario - IMO - the reports of the trophies strewn across the floor would fit.

Let me give my opinion to some other points of your posting :

I am coming to a new hypothesis that Reeva could have been trying to leave the house (as that sofa is near the front door) and her car door was open apparently so he shot her downstairs and he later put the body there to cover up that initial bleeding.

I don't believe the reports about Reeva's car with open doors in front of the house. If this would be true, Botha or Nel would mention this in the bail hearing because this would change their opinion of what happened.

But I agree that he put her body downstairs to cover up her initial bleedings arised of the shot he fired to her in the hallway.

She then either sat on the sofa later or he laid her there (hence the blood there) to think about what he was going to do next.

If Reeva sat on the sofa or OP laid her there then it must have been more blood at one place at the sofa and not only some blood splatter spread over a fairly wide range as the photo shows.

Then he either carried her up the stairs or she went up to the toilet herself depending on the gravity of her injuries.

I don't believe OP carried Reeva upstairs. To me it makes more sense Reeva ran upstairs by herself . And at the point where the photo shows blood spatters at the wall of the stair he hit her the second time.

Maybe this time in her arm so that she flailed. This would explain to me the blood spatter on the wall in this area.

I could imagine the cartridges of these two bullets (shots outside the toilet) later were collected by OP or his team.

He then closed/locked the toilet door and did his cover up by firing three (or four) more shots at her dead or dying body through the door up to 17 minutes later.

If Reeva already was hit two times before she reached (and closed the toilet) and Oscar then fired four times through the door, only one of those bullets could have hit Reeva. The other three bullets would have left marks on the wall in the toilet.

But if my theory before - Reeva was hit two times outside the toilet - isn't right and Reeva really had been hit three times inside the toilet with closed door then I still wondering how he could know so exactly where she was in the toilet that three of four shots could hit her but only one failed?

The whole scenario of the shooting is very suspicious but as OP and his DT try to make us believe how it happend I don't believe it - never ever ! But until now I still have no explanation that makes sense for all points

He then got his cricket bat to knock down the door. But why was it bloodied?

He SAID he used the cricket bat to knock down the door but is this the truth?

It was found in the bathroom on the bath mat - but there was no blood. And Reeva lay on the ground so he couldn't hit her with the bat when he smashed the door.

I have no explanation why the cricket bat then was bloody.

He then washed his hands and put the two mobile phones in the bathroom after encrypting them.

I believe Reeva could take her phone to call for help before she fled into the toilet. Her overnight bag was on the sofa beside the bed - very close to the bathroom passage. But it get out of her hand befor she could close the toilet door and fell on the bath mat.

And I believe OP ran back into the bedroom after the shooting to fetch his phone with which he made his first calls. His phone also was found on the bath mat. And while he was waiting for the first people coming to the house he encrypted both phones.

For the rest of your posting - I quite agree with you

 

[shane13]

Shazam

Thanks.

But I guess I did not make myself clear.
I and my friend wondered about the distance between the security gate and OP's house.
That photo is nice, but ipso facto does not yield the actual distance between the 2 sites.

 

[shane13]

Shane, how would you know if there were any non-herbal steroids there if they had been removed from the crime scene by OP's team (not police)?

IMO to act in the way he did, OP would have to have been drunk, on steroids or something else or mentally ill to act in a way that could ruin his career? Surely if they were not getting on, it would have been better to say goodbye to each other!

Again, those were not herbal, those were not steroids.
Those were Testis Compositum--homeopathic remedies.

They come in sealed vials if they were liquid, made by HEEL of Germany.
All this settled here months ago, and also settled in court.
Mag Nair chastised Botha for not quickly checking online to verify this. And here he was right (and Botha has admitted this). A few seconds online and the world never would have heard of "steroids."

Obviously analysis will have the final say. But that's like saying every bottle of food and everything else in OP's house might have steroids in them, and should all be checked. A waste of time and money.

If that remedy had any appreciable amount of steroids, Germany would not allow it to be sold.

There are "countless" medical and psychological conditions that cause people to act irrationally and/or impulsively and/or with rage. We aready know that OP had problems with impulsivity and rage.

The initial shot was probably done in a rage. As I pointed out the 17 minute gap and final volley of shots may be a whole 'nother matter.

And the recent question I posed is why did not security respond immediately to the first shot--thus facilitating (inadvertently or deliberately) the final volley.

Reeva likely would have been saved if help were summoned after the first shot.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

BIB -
He SAID he used the cricket bat to knock down the door but is this the truth?

It was found in the bathroom on the bath mat - but there was no blood. And Reeva lay on the ground so he couldn't hit her with the bat when he smashed the door.

I have no explanation why the cricket bat then was bloody.

Resp. snipped


Maybe she was not dead yet with the final shot to her head and as you mentioned in yr above post, he did use all 6 bullets already ...so he might have finished with the bat.. Just a thought

There were rumors abt head skull crash in the beginning and then the autopsy report controverted that but I don't trust any released statements there..

 

[Pisto_lius]

Before I forget it again - there were other (yet not named) points in OP's affidavit that makes me wondering:

1. OP said he was on this stumps until the shooting.

Idk, but didn't he then needed his arms for moving?

And if he needed them how could he carry the fan from the balkony into the bedroom?


2. After the shooting Oscar said

I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance.

I assume he moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping his eyes on the bathroom entrance, because he still thought his "intruder" could come out of the toilet to attack him So, for this reason I assume he still had his pistol in his hand.


3. When he reached the bed and realised that Reeva was not in bed he

- returned to the bathroom calling her name

- tried to open the toilet door

- rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help

- put on his prosthetic legs

- ran back to the bathroom

- tried to kick the toilet door open

- then again went back into the bedroom

- grabbed his cricket bat to bash open the toilet door

- found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door

- battled to get Reeva out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom

....etc......

At no point of all this actions he said THAT or WHERE he put down the pistol.

So, did he all these actions with the pistol in his hand? It also was found in the bathroom on the bath mat beside the two phones and the cricket bat....

 

[shane13]

BIB - Look at this image of OP's confiscated pistol



It looks like the trigger is pulled back. This could means the magazine was empty.

This type of gun has 6 rounds of ammunition in the magazine.... And this would fit to what whitnesses heard

No, this is likely all wrong, as well as your implications.

The semi-automatic Taurus I believe holds 12 rounds in the magazine. If not 12 they usually hold at least 8 or 9.

Secondly, it is standard operating procedure for safety reasons (at least in many locales), for officers to remove the magazine and the round in the chamber (after taking prints), and so it will look like it does in the photo. This is likely what happened and not that he fired all rounds in the magazine.

 

[shane13]

You are absolutely brilliant.

I know nothing about guns but I am convinced now about the possibility of six bullets.

No, rather the opposite most likely, as I wrote above, it is standard operating procedure for safety reasons, for cops to remove the magazine and the round in the chamber, and then it looks like that.

See e.g. George Zimmerman's gun. He only fired 1 round IIRC, yet the cops removed the magazine and the round in chamber.

See this photo: The semi is cocked back like OP's gun, though Zimmerman fired only 1 round.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Before I forget it again - there were other (yet not named) points in OP's affidavit that makes me wondering:

1. OP said he was on this stumps until the shooting.

Idk, but didn't he then needed his arms for moving?

And if he needed them how could he carry the fan from the balkony into the bedroom?


2. After the shooting Oscar said



I assume he moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping his eyes on the bathroom entrance, because he still thought his "intruder" could come out of the toilet to attack him So, for this reason I assume he still had his pistol in his hand.


3. When he reached the bed and realised that Reeva was not in bed he

- returned to the bathroom calling her name

- tried to open the toilet door

- rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help

- put on his prosthetic legs

- ran back to the bathroom

- tried to kick the toilet door open

- then again went back into the bedroom

- grabbed his cricket bat to bash open the toilet door

- found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door

- battled to get Reeva out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom

....etc......

At no point of all this actions he said THAT or WHERE he put down the pistol.

So, did he all these actions with the pistol in his hand? It also was found in the bathroom on the bath mat beside the two phones and the cricket bat....

1. I thought that he was able to walk on his stumps without the help of his arms cause he mentioned that he has limited mobility on his stumps
but not sure now...
:waitasec:

 

[shane13]

1. I thought that he was able to walk on his stumps without the help of his arms cause he mentioned that he has limited mobility on his stumps
but not sure now...
:waitasec:

OP can not only walk quite well on his stumps.
But as he says in his autobiography, Blade Runner--which I read--he can run quite well on them without "needing his arms".

In his autobio, he relates that he "beat the competition" as a lad, while running on his stumps.

That's how great his athleticism and balance are.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder

''According to Botha, the bullets had struck her on the right side, which meant that she was not sitting on the toilet but probably crouching behind the locked door. From the location of the bullet casings in the bathroom, the detective believed that Pistorius had fired at the door from less than five feet away. By standing straight and imagining himself pointing a gun at the door, Botha believed that the bullet holes were slanted down, which would indicate that Pistorius had been wearing his prosthetic legs, not, as he would later claim, that he was on his stumps. ''



As Botha thought if Reeva was in a sitting position behind the door her arms crossed .. (as she got left finger and right arm wounds ) ,
shouldn't there be more blood behind the door if she was injured from her right hip and arm there? That doesn't make sense to me...