General Discussion Thread #4

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I am not sure this has been posted before but I was quite surprised to see New Scientist had even commented on the issue. It doesn't add much, if anything, to the story but is an acknowledged superior publication and worth a read.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23200-how-forensic-science-will-solve-pistorius-shooting.html

Thanks for that, interesting article from (IMO) an excellent publication.
"Uncovering what really happened could, however, be complicated by the possibility that the crime scene was contaminated by police on initial investigation."
I believe this quote absolutely puts it in a nutshell to question as to whether the SA police can be relied upon to gather circumstantial and more importantly forensic evidence in a proper manner.
Personally I believe after hearing the circumstances that have been made public about this case, that OP killed RS in a fit of rage. (MOO) His story seems more than highly unlikely.
I'm sure many people from around the world will be watching closely to see how an alleged corrupt and inept SA police force and legal system will deal with this extremely high profile case.

All just my own opinion
 
Food for thought or just my ramblings - LOL. Why did P need to retrieve the fan from the balcony at 3am? The temperature in the Jo'berg area that night at 3am was 18C. Would it have been necessary to cool the bedroom below that? I used the following link to find the historical weather conditions for the night of the 13th. There was a waxing moon on the night of the 13th.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/FAOR/2013/2/14/DailyHistory.html

Were the doors to the balcony closed at all during the evening/night before the crime? I don't recall him saying in his affidavit that he had to open them to retrieve the fan. We have often heard how he closed the doors, pulled the blind and the curtains. WHY pull the blinds and the curtains as well as close the doors? Was this to bolster his alibi that the room was very dark? If they had been left open all evening and into the night he could hardly claim he was concerned with his or Reeva’s safety.

We have seen reported that at least two witnesses heard them arguing furiously earlier in the evening and that security had visited them due to the noise. We have also heard reported that there was a gap between the shots being fired. At the moment this is all hearsay but perhaps this is nearer the truth that we realise.

Maybe there was a terrible row earlier and Reeva tried to leave the house but was restrained. Apparently she was fully dressed and not in a nightie as had been reported. Maybe P was furious for whatever reason and in temper first shot Reeva (but only wounded her) in the bedroom where a spent cartridge was supposedly found. Maybe at this point he realised that he would have to create a feasible alibi because if this news were to become public (as surely it would) his future would have been in grave doubt. The only way for this non-lethal shooting, in temper, of Reeva would not become public knowledge was to silence her forever.

If he decided then to murder her he would need to create a storyline, ie retrieve the fan, close the doors, blinds and curtains, claim he could not see when he re-entered the bedroom, thought he heard a noise and we know the rest. Just maybe Reeva was already fatally injured at this point, having been chased to the bathroom and injured so badly that she was unlikely to survive. Did he really shout from the balcony before her death or was that also afterwards in an attempt to strengthen his alibi? Why shout from the balcony anyway. Reeva, he says, was in bed. Surely any normal being would have gone to her, gently woken her and then both have taken the stairs and exited the building ASAP. Why on earth would he do anything else? What sort of idiot would ignore the safety of the love of his life and choose to go stalking a non-existent burglar.

Why was the cricket bat so bloodied? I hardly think breaking down the door would have caused the bat to be anywhere near the blood. Had it been used to hit Reeva at some stage?

Why did the dogs, who were in the yard, not bark if there was an intruder climbing a ladder? They look the type of dog that would eat you alive if you were an intruder.

Why was Reeva's phone on the bathmat and not with her in the toilet? Why did the DT not hand over his phone immediately? They must know removing evidence from a crime scene is illegal. IMO they should be prosecuted over this if it proves to be true.

Of course, the story may be completely different from that gleaned from P’s affidavit and a very eager press. This surely is going to be a very interesting trial when eventually it starts. The 19th August court hearing will give us a lot more information to digest and a much clearer idea of what the prosecution feels happened.
 
Time is ticking by quickly and soon we shall hear what evidence the prosecution team have. The defence team, of course, should not have much of that information but, no doubt, the DT may have gleaned a some of it via a corrupt route. Quite a depressing thought.

I have been checking back through some of the links and reading the associated posts on them. It seems a number of contributors feel as we do, ie how on earth (in the pitch dark as Pistorius claims) could Reeva feel/stumble her way to the bathroom and lock herself in without making any noise. BIB 1 - P is claiming that moonlight and bright security lights caused his lack of vision on re-entering the bedroom from the balcony. At the time I checked on the level of moonlight on that evening in SA and it was around 12 per cent, ie low. BIB 2 - I know nothing of any blindingly bright security lights in the vicinity. Has anyone else any information about the security lighting on the estate and, in particular, in the vicinity of his balcony? There would be a degree of loss of visual acuity if he can prove these lights were very bright but it would only be for a short while.

The forensic team may have a problem proving some of their theories as I have read that forensic science in SA is immature. However, in the UK press I read that a serious number of UK experts offered their help with this case. Though I can no longer find the link, I do hope this is the case. Without external help I feel there is a good chance P may only be found guilty of manslaughter and, no doubt, given a non-custodial sentence. I do hope I am totally wrong. In a week or so there will be "some more meat on the bone" and I look forward to seeing new theories on the case.


BIB 1 - I never heard this before :confused:. Do you have a source (link) for this information, please, because I found nothing about it in OP's affidavit.


BIB 2 - According to this image I found there are 6 streetlights in the vicinity of OP's house - 2 in front of the house, 2 behind the house. And the 2 streetlights behind the house are fairly close to the bedroom/balcony resp. bathroom/toilet.




Even if there wasn't any moonlight this night but only the light of the streetlights, this wouldn't delay significantly the light-dark adaptation of his eyes because the lighting conditions at the balcony were nearly the same as in the bedroom.

In the darkness, the pupil is widely found so much light can fall into the eye.

And even if you wake up in a dark room, without any lamplight but with open window it takes just a few seconds until your eyes get used to the light conditions and you can at least discern outlines. Try it by yourselves :)

The balcony door was open at this time. As he claimed Reeva slept on the right side of the bed - directly near the big balcony door. If he came (with the fan) from the balcony and entered the bedroom again, the right side of the bed must have been clearly in his focus. So, there is NO way he couldn't see whether Reeva was in the bed or not before he closed the balcony door, curtains and blinds.

But I wouldn't be surprised if his DT would say OP went backwards when he brought the fan into the bedroom :D


And his lawyers argued that Pistorius had suffered an injury to his right shoulder and wore a "medical patch" the night of the killing, forcing him to sleep on the left side of the bed.

As practically, just this night! But despite his "bad shoulder injury" - which he didn't mentioned in his affidavit - he was able to

* carry a big fan several meters
* bend down and grab the pistol underneath the bed (in the pitch-dark room)
* try to kick the toilet door open
* beat the toilet door with a cricket bat several times

* squeeze in his arm (and shoulder) through the narrow hole of the broken panel(s) to grab a key lying on the floor of the other side of the door (at this time he had his prosthetic legs on)

* drag Reeva's lifeless body several meters from the toilet into the bathroom
* pick up Reeva's lifeless body from the ground
* carry Reeva's lifeless body downstairs through the whole house
* put Reeva's lifeless body down to the ground

That alone shows how full of holes his affidavit is and I guess his DT has already repented to give this affidavit so quickly :floorlaugh: Let us hope, prosecutors will use it in the right way.....
 
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-trial-defence-team-1941092

I'm curious, if the defense actually would cite Reeva's letter. :notgood:


Can't wait they will use this letter, but not believe so :)

From the source:

The Blade Runner’s lawyers will say the letter shows the couple shared their fears about violent raiders.

If they really will use this letter for the above mentioned explanation they would shooting itself in the foot :D

Precisely because Reeva was so afraid of violent intruders she never ever would allow that the balcony door and the window in the bathroom are open when they were ready to go to bed.

And if OP is so scared of South African crime why he then go to the firing range in the middle of the night if he can't sleep and why he want to have a midnight run as he tweeted on 16-01-13????

Nothing like a little insomnia to get emails done! Haha seriously feeling good, maybe a midnight run is in order?
https://twitter.com/OscarPistorius

OP mentioned the bathroom window was open when he reached the bathroom with his gun in the middle of the night.

He never mentioned he opened the balcony door before he went out and bring the fan in - so the balcony door was open when they went to bed as well.

The fact that the balcony door and the bathroom window were open although OP claimed they went to bed and both fell asleep since about 10.00 p.m. (after Reeva finished her yoga exercises) would help prosecutors to say they weren't in bed this night but had an argument, heard by several neighbours who called security/police earlier the night before the shooting.

IMO
 
Thanks for that, interesting article from (IMO) an excellent publication.
"Uncovering what really happened could, however, be complicated by the possibility that the crime scene was contaminated by police on initial investigation."
I believe this quote absolutely puts it in a nutshell to question as to whether the SA police can be relied upon to gather circumstantial and more importantly forensic evidence in a proper manner.
Personally I believe after hearing the circumstances that have been made public about this case, that OP killed RS in a fit of rage. (MOO) His story seems more than highly unlikely.
I'm sure many people from around the world will be watching closely to see how an alleged corrupt and inept SA police force and legal system will deal with this extremely high profile case.

All just my own opinion


BIB - I'm furious and can't understand why everybody only blame the police for contaminate the crime scene but nobody thinks about all the people who reached the scene before police - family members, friends, neighbours, security (e.g. Stander).

No one can tell me that non of them went upstairs into the bathroom.

Whose shoeprints whatever supposedly found - where is the proof that were Botha's?
 
Food for thought or just my ramblings - LOL. BIB 1 - Why did P need to retrieve the fan from the balcony at 3am? The temperature in the Jo'berg area that night at 3am was 18C. Would it have been necessary to cool the bedroom below that? I used the following link to find the historical weather conditions for the night of the 13th. There was a waxing moon on the night of the 13th.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/FAOR/2013/2/14/DailyHistory.html

BIB 2 - Were the doors to the balcony closed at all during the evening/night before the crime? I don't recall him saying in his affidavit that he had to open them to retrieve the fan. We have often heard how he closed the doors, pulled the blind and the curtains. WHY pull the blinds and the curtains as well as close the doors? Was this to bolster his alibi that the room was very dark? If they had been left open all evening and into the night he could hardly claim he was concerned with his or Reeva’s safety.

We have seen reported that at least two witnesses heard them arguing furiously earlier in the evening and that security had visited them due to the noise. We have also heard reported that there was a gap between the shots being fired. At the moment this is all hearsay but perhaps this is nearer the truth that we realise.

Maybe there was a terrible row earlier and Reeva tried to leave the house but was restrained. Apparently she was fully dressed and not in a nightie as had been reported. Maybe P was furious for whatever reason and in temper first shot Reeva (but only wounded her) in the bedroom where a spent cartridge was supposedly found. Maybe at this point he realised that he would have to create a feasible alibi because if this news were to become public (as surely it would) his future would have been in grave doubt. The only way for this non-lethal shooting, in temper, of Reeva would not become public knowledge was to silence her forever.

If he decided then to murder her he would need to create a storyline, ie retrieve the fan, close the doors, blinds and curtains, claim he could not see when he re-entered the bedroom, thought he heard a noise and we know the rest. Just maybe Reeva was already fatally injured at this point, having been chased to the bathroom and injured so badly that she was unlikely to survive. Did he really shout from the balcony before her death or was that also afterwards in an attempt to strengthen his alibi? Why shout from the balcony anyway. Reeva, he says, was in bed. Surely any normal being would have gone to her, gently woken her and then both have taken the stairs and exited the building ASAP. Why on earth would he do anything else? What sort of idiot would ignore the safety of the love of his life and choose to go stalking a non-existent burglar.

Why was the cricket bat so bloodied? I hardly think breaking down the door would have caused the bat to be anywhere near the blood. Had it been used to hit Reeva at some stage?

Why did the dogs, who were in the yard, not bark if there was an intruder climbing a ladder? They look the type of dog that would eat you alive if you were an intruder.

Why was Reeva's phone on the bathmat and not with her in the toilet? Why did the DT not hand over his phone immediately? They must know removing evidence from a crime scene is illegal. IMO they should be prosecuted over this if it proves to be true.

Of course, the story may be completely different from that gleaned from P’s affidavit and a very eager press. This surely is going to be a very interesting trial when eventually it starts. BIB 3 - The 19th August court hearing will give us a lot more information to digest and a much clearer idea of what the prosecution feels happened.


A good summary of the key points which preoccupied all of us since 14th February :cheers:

BIB 1 - And remember: Reeva did her yoga exercises earlier in the evening without a fan. I guess at 22.00 p.m. it was much warmer than at 3.00 a.m. in the bedroom.

An open balcony door and open bathroom window during the whole night causing draught. This could be uncomfortable, especially for the person who sleeps next to the open balcony door. And a person who has shoulder problems should avoid drafts even more :D


BIB 2 - I also don't recall this as I mentioned in my post #1004


BIB 3 - I don't believe we really will get more information on 19th August because this isn't the date the trial will start.

With luck, the prosecution will present their indictment this day, so we will only learn whether they still stay with premeditated murder or not. In this context, they of course will provide reasons for their indictment but this will not yet really answer the questions we discussed the last months about what happened on 14th Feb.

Only during the trial we will learn details about the evidence they have. And this might take several weeks or months. I'm afraid we shall have to wait for some time :D

IMO :)
 
I hope OP's uncle have enough alcohol in his house - OP will need it if he read those reports. Sorry, I forgot - of course, he NOT drink alcohol ! So, he will read the bible again and again and again.... :angel:


Sprinting world championships go on without Oscar Pistorius

For some of the 400-meter sprinters at the world championships, the topic of Oscar Pistorius remains either taboo or simply not worth tackling.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/more-s...-oscar-pistorius/story-fndukor0-1226695224107
 
BIB 1 - I never heard this before :confused:. Do you have a source (link) for this information, please, because I found nothing about it in OP's affidavit.


BIB 2 - According to this image I found there are 6 streetlights in the vicinity of OP's house - 2 in front of the house, 2 behind the house. And the 2 streetlights behind the house are fairly close to the bedroom/balcony resp. bathroom/toilet.



Even if there wasn't any moonlight this night but only the light of the streetlights, this wouldn't delay significantly the light-dark adaptation of his eyes because the lighting conditions at the balcony were nearly the same as in the bedroom.

In the darkness, the pupil is widely found so much light can fall into the eye.

And even if you wake up in a dark room, without any lamplight but with open window it takes just a few seconds until your eyes get used to the light conditions and you can at least discern outlines. Try it by yourselves :)


Thank you for pointing out my errors. I had been rerunning the video where the two solicitors re-enacted the events and it it was there that it was suggested P might use the lack of light and why. However, as we are all aware the studio re-enactment was incredibly poor. Turning off floodlights would have made it difficult to see for much longer than the actual prevailing conditions on the night of the crime which were low moonlight and low level street lighting. The sound recording experiment was also very poor with the recording technician's home being used on a completely different estate under completely different conditions. I am still troubled by the use of these two solicitors. They are well known for getting white SA's off the hook and I cannot help feeling both were biased in favour of P.

Thank for for the photo. It clearly shows that the lights outside his property were no more than fairly basic street lights. Also in one of the You Tube videos there is actual night time footage showing the low level of these lights. This footage was general of the estate and not specific re the lighting. There is no way he would have had a problem adjusting to the light and unless he walked backward from the balcony into the bedroom, closed the curtains etc. He would clearly have seen that Reeva was not in bed.

P must be very worried at this point now he has had time to think about his affidavit and the ridiculous nature of his excuse.

I made another mistake in suggesting he shouted from the balcony. I cannot remember if I read this or assumed it, so better to ignore that comment.

I am aware the trial will not start until, possibly, next year. Will all the charges be read at the indictment or only the intended overall charge, ie premeditated murder (or something else)? I have no legal experience and do not know. I am hopeful there will be enough information to indicate how strong the PT's case is. I am hoping we will be given more information of interest to discuss in the next few months.
 
BIB - I'm furious and can't understand why everybody only blame the police for contaminate the crime scene but nobody thinks about all the people who reached the scene before police - family members, friends, neighbours, security (e.g. Stander).

No one can tell me that non of them went upstairs into the bathroom.

Whose shoeprints whatever supposedly found - where is the proof that were Botha's?

Yes I agree with your points completely. Also your comment also brings to light the fact that some people may have been called prior to police or ambulance.
Also please note that the original quote did say "possibly"
 
Thank you for pointing out my errors.

I wouldn't' call it "error". We all speculate on information we receive from different sources. And this information are often very contradictory, so it's no wonder if one errs times - this happens to all of us :blowkiss:


I had been rerunning the video where the two solicitors re-enacted the events and it it was there that it was suggested P might use the lack of light and why.

Thanks for this information. You are right, they suggested this (and a lot of more rubbish) in the video, I remember.


I am still troubled by the use of these two solicitors. They are well known for getting white SA's off the hook and I cannot help feeling both were biased in favour of P

Most of the videos which they "sold" us as a re-construction of what happened, only were biased in favour of OP by his PR-team. That's my view too.


I made another mistake in suggesting he shouted from the balcony. I cannot remember if I read this or assumed it, so better to ignore that comment.

You didn't make a mistake about this :) OP claimed it in his afidavit

after the shooting....
I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.

This claimed "screaming for help" was nothing more than a further cover up. He and his DT knew there are witnesses allege that a woman's voice was heard to cry out in between the shots. And that's the reason why they claimed in the affidavit OP screamed for help - hoping the witnesses wouldn't be able to distinguish whether they heard a female or a male's voice.

We will see, whether it works or not - but I afraid it sadly will :(

Do you noticed that OP now only mentioned he opened the sliding door but not the curtains and blinds which previously claimed he also closed ? :D


Will all the charges be read at the indictment or only the intended overall charge, ie premeditated murder (or something else)?

The indictment will/have to contain all the charges prosecutors accuse OP. We will see whether they accuse him - as they said - also e.g. for the unlicensed .38 calibre ammunition they found even if the defence says it was his father's.

OP had no licence for a .38-calibre weapon. So, why would OP keep ammunition for his father in his safe, if his father, grandfather and uncles own 55 guns between them? Wouldn't they keep the ammunition for their weapons in their own house?

I don't know whether prosecutors have any more charges against OP - that's all I know could be possible.

But I'm curious whether prosecutors will mentioned the withhold of evidence in the indictment - i.e. the 5th cell phone and the bullet they allegedly found inside the toilet bowl.

But because it was OP's DT (not he) who withheld these evidence, I guess they can't or maybe don't want to mention this.
 
Yes I agree with your points completely. Also your comment also brings to light the fact that some people may have been called prior to police or ambulance.
Also please note that the original quote did say "possibly"

BIB - I'm aware of that :) But there were not only a lot of media reports which especially blamed Botha - also the defence and even judge Nair put the blame on Botha in the BH. And Botha was stupid enough to say he may have....

IMO It doesn't matter if they said Botha "may well have contaminated the crime scene by not wearing protective shoes" - in public opinion Botha was the one who DID it. You can see/read this opinion in almost all public discussions, e.g. twitter, facebook, forums etc. They manipulate public opinion by this way - and this is what annoys me.

No harm meant :blowkiss:
 
State preparing Pistorius indictment

MONDAY, 12 AUGUST 16:48 CAT

PRETORIA – One week before murder-accused Oscar Pistorius makes his next appearance in court, Eyewitness News has heard that the state is now preparing to serve the indictment on him.

The indictment will contain specific details of the crimes the prosecution team claims he committed.

While there's been no confirmation of a trial date, it's expected to be set for the first quarter of next year.

Two weeks ago, it emerged that the police were still struggling to access information on the iPhone Pistorius used on the night he shot Steenkamp.

Police investigators officially asked their counterparts at the International Criminal Police Organisation (Interpol) for help in acquiring the expertise of Apple staff.

While the athlete’s phone isn’t locked, investigators are trying to get his iTunes password to forensically analyse the device and access deleted or hidden data.

Officials are hoping his password can be retrieved from Apple’s servers.

Meanwhile, the Daily Voice newspaper in Cape Town has reported that Pistorius was spotted kayaking with friends in Hermanus on Sunday.

His family has said he has been spending most of his time at home.

They also announced in June that he would be resuming a “low-key track routine.”

His family's spokesperson, Anneliese Burgess, said he “is not contemplating a formal return to athletics and his training is not aimed at preparing for competition.”

http://ewn.co.za/2013/08/12/State-preparing-Pistorius-indictment
 
Oscar spotted kayaking in the Cape

Cape Town – Murder-accused Oscar Pistorius has been spotted kayaking in the Cape.

The Daily Voice saw the Olympic star enjoying the sunny weather and water sports with three unidentified friends at Hermanus’ Old Harbour on Sunday morning.

Pistorius, 26, faces charges of murder for shooting his model girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp, 29, through a locked toilet door on February 14.

<modsnip>

http://m.iol.co.za/article/view/s/11/a/454823
 
Judge Bert Bam loosened the reins and granted Pistorius&#8217; appeal to be allowed to travel both overseas and in SA, with permission and the provision of an itinerary to police

That seems ridiculous to me, but what do I know. Would it be possible in most other countries to be allowed to travel overseas if one was out on bail for a murder charge ? Serious question, I honestly don't know.
 
Oscar spotted kayaking in the Cape

"He was accompanied by bodyguards and an unknown woman, who his family identified as a cousin." :floorlaugh:

If the woman was blonde, then she wasn't a cousin.....
I'm naughty, I know.



- Justice for Reeva -
 
[/QUOTE]
Oscar spotted kayaking in the Cape

The Paralympic 400m gold medalist looked relaxed, wearing flesh-coloured prosthetic legs instead of his trademark carbon-fibre blades , a life jacket and board shorts.

Can you imagine him going kayaking, with his tousled hair, his board shorts and his trademark cheetah blades. Not a good look or a practical kayaking accessory, unless he intended to sit legs astride and use them as paddles. Is this journalist for real LOL
 
According to the paralympic athlete's uncle Arnold Pistorius, Oscar "just had to take a break from the jail he's living in" over the weekend.

Since the controversial athlete was arrested for Steenkamp's death, he had been living at his uncle's Pretoria home.

"To my knowledge it's the first time Ozzie has left Gauteng for any period of time," Arnold Pistorius told Beeld.

He explained that Oscar was in Hermanus to visit a family friend's mother, who was terminally ill, and said he also planned to visit Cape Town for a few days before returning to Pretoria for his court appearance.

http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2013/08/13/oscar-pistorius-seen-kayaking-in-hermanus

Another report of the same incident with Uncle Arnold's take on it.
 
State preparing Pistorius indictment

At the hearing, Pistorius and his legal team will learn what evidence the state has against him. When the indictment is served, prosecutors are expected to disclose the evidence to allow him to prepare a defence.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-trial-police-conclude-2159550#ixzz2bq83KaGE

Unlike the report Pisto_lius posted, the Mirror reports that the Prosecution will disclose the evidence against OP to enable him to prepare a defence.

Is that correct?
 
"He was accompanied by bodyguards and an unknown woman, who his family identified as a cousin." :floorlaugh:

If the woman was blonde, then she wasn't a cousin.....
I'm naughty, I know.


- Justice for Reeva -

I read a comment where the poster said he saw OP at the Airport recently with a statuesque blonde who attracted the attention of both men and women there. I doubt if she was his cousin!
 
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