General Discussion Thread #4

[Estelle]

"What is particularly fascinating about the Pistorius case is that it has many parallels with the 1955 killing of racehorse owner William Woodward, Jr. in his fashionable Oyster Bay, Long Island estate. In both cases, innocence or guilt resides in the court of public opinion rather than in a jury verdict. One night, Woodward’s wife, Ann, shot and killed him. Woodward had been stepping out on his Ann; and, unlike Pistorius and Steenkamp, they slept in separate bedrooms. Rumors abounded that Woodward was seeking a divorce as Ann Woodward also had been untrue to her marital vows. According to Ann, she heard footsteps on the roof of the bedroom and thought that it was a prowler who had been reported in the neighborhood. Then, she heard a crash upstairs in the hall and the sound of a dog barking. Opening her bedroom door a crack, she saw a shadow and fired her specially made shotgun into the hallway. The sound was her husband emerging naked from the bathroom. One of the shotgun pellets entered Woodward’s brain, killing him instantly. No need for high-capacity magazines."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jameszirin/2013/02/27/the-stranger-case-of-oscar-pistorius/

 

[shane13]

Magistrate takes entire court in Carl Pistorius' homicide trial on the road to visit crash site

THE magistrate in Carl Pistorius' culpable homicide trial took the entire court to a rural road to measure distances and check evidence.

Earlier, in his blue suit and open-necked white shirt, Carl Pistorius sat in the dock looking at his cellphone and a tablet device for much of the morning's proceedings, but did confer with his legal team at one point during Mr Raphadu's testimony and also smiled and shook his head in apparent disagreement with the policeman's evidence.

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/m...te/story-fndir2ev-1226629667281#ixzz2RfHpCqzd

I just read OP's autobio, Blade Runner.
People would be amazed--OP says Carl is the wild one, the adrenaline junkie, the car-speed demon. Carl himself describes his younger drunkeness.

 

[Estelle]

25th April 2013

This was my gut feeling all along....'Gradual courting' but others always disagreed with me!

"Mentor Jane Celliers — who signed Reeva to her Ice Model Management agency — has revealed the stunning model BARELY KNEW Pistorius before her death, aged 29. Jane was Reeva’s manager for seven years and says the couple had not spent more than a FORTNIGHT together in total.

She revealed: “Reeva didn’t know Oscar very well and had only seen him for a couple of weeks. “Yes, they might have met in November but it was a gradual courting — seeing each other every couple of weeks — NOT every day.

“Reeva took it slowly — it was a handful of times. That’s how new it was. It wasn’t as though she met him and from that minute they were joined at the hip.” She seemed happy. She told me she was just getting to know him. It might have been early days, but a rift had already formed between the pair over Reeva’s reluctance to join “Bladerunner” Pistorius in the celebrity fast-lane.

Jane, 43, said: “She didn’t like the racy life he led and she only agreed to appear in public with him, on the red carpet, twice — the (South Africa) Sports Awards and one other thing. "He liked all that much more and was pushing her to join him.” Sobbing throughout the interview, Jane says she hopes that Pistorius “rots in hell”. Oscar Pistorius, you are not lying lifeless in a coffin.”

But she fears the South African justice system will “mess up” the case. She said: “I believe it will come out what really happened. He is going to pay. “Reeva wasn’t in the habit of taking her phone to the toilet, so why would she do that in the middle of the night and lock the door? “Why had Reeva locked it? She could only have been afraid. I just hope it doesn’t mess up like most South African court cases that just get postponed and postponed and postponed. Reeva’s people will eventually need closure.”

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...va-steenkamp-before-murder.html#ixzz2RquQYtjB

 

[shane13]

25th April 2013

This was my gut feeling all along....'Gradual courting' but others always disagreed with me!

"Mentor Jane Celliers — who signed Reeva to her Ice Model Management agency — has revealed the stunning model BARELY KNEW Pistorius before her death, aged 29. Jane was Reeva’s manager for seven years and says the couple had not spent more than a FORTNIGHT together in total.

She revealed: “Reeva didn’t know Oscar very well and had only seen him for a couple of weeks. “Yes, they might have met in November but it was a gradual courting — seeing each other every couple of weeks — NOT every day.

“Reeva took it slowly — it was a handful of times. That’s how new it was. It wasn’t as though she met him and from that minute they were joined at the hip.” She seemed happy. She told me she was just getting to know him. It might have been early days, but a rift had already formed between the pair over Reeva’s reluctance to join “Bladerunner” Pistorius in the celebrity fast-lane.

Jane, 43, said: “She didn’t like the racy life he led and she only agreed to appear in public with him, on the red carpet, twice — the (South Africa) Sports Awards and one other thing. "He liked all that much more and was pushing her to join him.” Sobbing throughout the interview, Jane says she hopes that Pistorius “rots in hell”. Oscar Pistorius, you are not lying lifeless in a coffin.”

But she fears the South African justice system will “mess up” the case. She said: “I believe it will come out what really happened. He is going to pay. “Reeva wasn’t in the habit of taking her phone to the toilet, so why would she do that in the middle of the night and lock the door? “Why had Reeva locked it? She could only have been afraid. I just hope it doesn’t mess up like most South African court cases that just get postponed and postponed and postponed. Reeva’s people will eventually need closure.”

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...va-steenkamp-before-murder.html#ixzz2RquQYtjB

I came to the same conclusion here for many reasons.
She had long relationships--slow starter, cousin Kim, and even the depos given at bail, said the V-Day was only agreed to hours before. That is very telling.

I think he is the one who may have had marriage in mind. And he and attys got his buds to slant it that's what she wanted.

As I said here he may have had proposal in mind for V-Day.
Was still livid maybe about date with Lahoud on Tuesday.

 

[Estelle]

I came to the same conclusion here for many reasons.
She had long relationships--slow starter, cousin Kim, and even the depos given at bail, said the V-Day was only agreed to hours before. That is very telling.

I think he is the one who may have had marriage in mind. And he and attys got his buds to slant it that's what she wanted.

As I said here he may have had proposal in mind for V-Day.
Was still livid maybe about date with Lahoud on Tuesday.

I don't even think that OP had marriage in mind. IMO he made all that up and got friends and family to say things that were not true to make out that they were closer than they really were re the house buying after a couple of dates???? so that others would believe that he love her so much that he would not intentionally kill her.

If a guy proposed to me after after 14 dates, I would run a mile.

No wonder she was still seeing her ex-lovers as friends. I don't think that they were necessarily in a committed relationship with one date a fortnight! If they were so in love, they would have made sure they would have seen each other about 4 times a week even if they were busy with careers!

I had always also had the idea that they either had not had sex or that the sex was not good for one of them because passionate lovers want to keep the fire lit more than once in 14 days!

“She didn’t like the racy life he led and she only agreed to appear in public with him, on the red carpet, twice — the (South Africa) Sports Awards and one other thing. "He liked all that much more and was pushing her to join him.”

This sounds to me that they had different attitudes and values which is a deal breaker in relationships. Also sounds as if he needed a trophy woman or handbag to take to celebrity events to make him look good.

 

[shane13]

I don't even think that OP had marriage in mind. IMO he made all that up and got friends and family to say things that were not true to make out that they were closer than they really were re the house buying after a couple of dates???? so that others would believe that he love her so much that he would not intentionally kill her.

If a guy proposed to me after after 14 dates, I would run a mile.

No wonder she was still seeing her ex-lovers as friends. I don't think that they were necessarily in a committed relationship with one date a fortnight! If they were so in love, they would have made sure they would have seen each other about 4 times a week even if they were busy with careers!

I had always also had the idea that they either had not had sex or that the sex was not good for one of them because passionate lovers want to keep the fire lit more than once in 14 days!

“She didn’t like the racy life he led and she only agreed to appear in public with him, on the red carpet, twice — the (South Africa) Sports Awards and one other thing. "He liked all that much more and was pushing her to join him.”

This sounds to me that they had different attitudes and values which is a deal breaker in relationships. Also sounds as if he needed a trophy woman or handbag to take to celebrity events to make him look good.

Well we will never know about marriage.
But I think OP did have strong feelings for her. And quickly.
We have Ceceil Myers saying this in effect, and telling him to lay off or go easy.
And his calling twice to her when she was with Lahoud and had coffee.. one only gets jealous over one who you have strong feelings for.

I think he was expcting big things on Val Day. If not a proposal, maybe sex, if they hadn't yet.

 

[Estelle]

Well we will never know about marriage.
But I think OP did have strong feelings for her. And quickly.
We have Ceceil Myers saying this in effect, and telling him to lay off or go easy.
And his calling twice to her when she was with Lahoud and had coffee.. one only gets jealous over one who you have strong feelings for.

I think he was expcting big things on Val Day. If not a proposal, maybe sex, if they hadn't yet.

IMO OP bandies the word, "LOVE' around as if he does not really know the meaning of it. His parents separated when he was about 6yo and mother died when he was about 16yo so his role models were not around much in his later years to teach him what love is really about.

Since OP was 16yo, he sought ADORATION and ADMIRATION from others like a typical narcissist but it was a one-way street from fans.

IMO 'LOVE' to OP meant "CONTROL" or 'POSSESSION" just like his dogs, horses, cars and properties.

On the other hand, RS was very affectionate and loving to everyone in the language she used but it also seems she talked like that to everyone.

 

[LaurieAClaase]

"What is particularly fascinating about the Pistorius case is that it has many parallels with the 1955 killing of racehorse owner William Woodward, Jr. in his fashionable Oyster Bay, Long Island estate. In both cases, innocence or guilt resides in the court of public opinion rather than in a jury verdict. One night, Woodward’s wife, Ann, shot and killed him. Woodward had been stepping out on his Ann; and, unlike Pistorius and Steenkamp, they slept in separate bedrooms. Rumors abounded that Woodward was seeking a divorce as Ann Woodward also had been untrue to her marital vows. According to Ann, she heard footsteps on the roof of the bedroom and thought that it was a prowler who had been reported in the neighborhood. Then, she heard a crash upstairs in the hall and the sound of a dog barking. Opening her bedroom door a crack, she saw a shadow and fired her specially made shotgun into the hallway. The sound was her husband emerging naked from the bathroom. One of the shotgun pellets entered Woodward’s brain, killing him instantly. No need for high-capacity magazines."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jameszirin/2013/02/27/the-stranger-case-of-oscar-pistorius/

Here is a link to an article that discusses premeditated murder, murder and culpable homicide in South Africa with examples of case law.

http://www.2oceansvibe.com/2013/04/25/would-oscar-pistorius-be-better-off-pleading-temporary-insanity-experts-weigh-in/

 

[shane13]

Here is a link to an article that discusses premeditated murder, murder and culpable homicide in South Africa with examples of case law.

http://www.2oceansvibe.com/2013/04/25/would-oscar-pistorius-be-better-off-pleading-temporary-insanity-experts-weigh-in/

I am not an attorney, but to me there is something different about OP's case and that something is worse for him than any of these examples just cited.

And that is the 10 or 17 minute gap between shots.
To me, that loses the "moment of" defense" aspect.
A shot or shots were heard then the gap, then the final volley.

Nothing like that in those examples.

Different and worse for OP.

Or at least should be.

And something no one is talking about. The actions after the final shooting sure seems like it coulld have been on the advice of an attorney--to get to his affidavit content.

Who did Oscar really call?
THe 5th phone that his DT has had? I recall Roux telling a reporter after a day of bail hearing, that the DT has the 5th phone. That sure is strange that it was not given to the cops immediately. And not demanded by them.

 

[shane13]

Last picture of Reeva with Oscar and new article by neighbor/friend who says Oscar said she was the one!

http://mediaslutza.com/2013/04/26/you-2-may-2013/

 

[kato]

"What is particularly fascinating about the Pistorius case is that it has many parallels with the 1955 killing of racehorse owner William Woodward, Jr. in his fashionable Oyster Bay, Long Island estate. In both cases, innocence or guilt resides in the court of public opinion rather than in a jury verdict. One night, Woodward’s wife, Ann, shot and killed him. Woodward had been stepping out on his Ann; and, unlike Pistorius and Steenkamp, they slept in separate bedrooms. Rumors abounded that Woodward was seeking a divorce as Ann Woodward also had been untrue to her marital vows. According to Ann, she heard footsteps on the roof of the bedroom and thought that it was a prowler who had been reported in the neighborhood. Then, she heard a crash upstairs in the hall and the sound of a dog barking. Opening her bedroom door a crack, she saw a shadow and fired her specially made shotgun into the hallway. The sound was her husband emerging naked from the bathroom. One of the shotgun pellets entered Woodward’s brain, killing him instantly. No need for high-capacity magazines."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jameszirin/2013/02/27/the-stranger-case-of-oscar-pistorius/

I read a book about that. It was very interesting.

 

[kittychi]

Excerpt from June 2013 Vanity Fair:

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2013/05/oscar-pistorius-murder-case-he-shot-her

“On the second of January, Oscar brought Reeva down to Cape Town, and they took my daughter and me out for breakfast,” Steenkamp’s cousin Kim Martin recalls. “We spent about two hours together. I thought he was a nice guy, but when Oscar walked away from the table, I asked Reeva, ‘Are you happy?’ And she smiled and said in a hesitant response, ‘Yes,’ but I could see in her response something. And she said, ‘We will have a chat.’ I felt there were things that they had to deal with. They looked good together, happy together, but there was something that she could not talk to me about at the table. She said, ‘We will talk about it another time.’ But we never did.”

 

[shane13]

Excerpt from June 2013 Vanity Fair:

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2013/05/oscar-pistorius-murder-case-he-shot-her

“On the second of January, Oscar brought Reeva down to Cape Town, and they took my daughter and me out for breakfast,” Steenkamp’s cousin Kim Martin recalls. “We spent about two hours together. I thought he was a nice guy, but when Oscar walked away from the table, I asked Reeva, ‘Are you happy?’ And she smiled and said in a hesitant response, ‘Yes,’ but I could see in her response something. And she said, ‘We will have a chat.’ I felt there were things that they had to deal with. They looked good together, happy together, but there was something that she could not talk to me about at the table. She said, ‘We will talk about it another time.’ But we never did.”

Thanks
Sure would like to see the entire article.

Some astute comments (hopefully).
One person says the cricket bat thing comes from there being splinters in Reeva's head--from the door being bashed in...

Was that in the article? Or did that poster see the autopsy report?

And Reeva--every few days we learn someone else warned her about him...

 

[shane13]

Excerpt from June 2013 Vanity Fair:

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2013/05/oscar-pistorius-murder-case-he-shot-her

“On the second of January, Oscar brought Reeva down to Cape Town, and they took my daughter and me out for breakfast,” Steenkamp’s cousin Kim Martin recalls. “We spent about two hours together. I thought he was a nice guy, but when Oscar walked away from the table, I asked Reeva, ‘Are you happy?’ And she smiled and said in a hesitant response, ‘Yes,’ but I could see in her response something. And she said, ‘We will have a chat.’ I felt there were things that they had to deal with. They looked good together, happy together, but there was something that she could not talk to me about at the table. She said, ‘We will talk about it another time.’ But we never did.”

Kitty, or anyone:

Looks like they removed the comments and are not allowing new ones.

Comments back up.
See the one by GerardDerm.
A very different take on Reeva.

 

[Estelle]

I am still on the fence about whether I see OP as a cheat in athletics or not (even though Roux told us that at least one of the drugs found was a herbal remedy) as his behaviour IMO really sounds more like roid rage plus the fact that there was evidence that OP had been drinking alcohol that night. IMO his blades gave him a definite advantage (to which I can give you a link to later if you are interested).

Could this have been a double whammy - (herbal) steroids plus alcohol (or the alcohol allergy that Shane has often suggested)?

Or did OP disclose in his possible drunken state to Reeva that night some secrets about his past that she was angered by so she could have lost all respect for him - hence the arguments. RS seems to me to have had integrity and would not have gone along with any cheating so could have lost total respect for OP hence she threw his trophies on the floor even smashing one of them.

Today I found this report:

Spain's anti-doping agency (AEA) plans to contest a court's decision that blood bags gathered in the Eufemiano Fuentes case should be destroyed. The doctor accused of running one of the world's largest sport doping rings received a one-year suspended sentence. Many want the bags tested to see if they implicate other athletes. The World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) said the decision was "disappointing".

Anti-doping authorities and international sports bodies want to analyse the bags to see whether they implicate athletes in sports other than cycling, but Judge Julia Patricia Santamaria denied them access and ordered that the bags be destroyed.

Fuentes has previously worked with tennis players, runners, footballers and boxers, although he has not said whether he helped them dope. Wada said the order to destroy all of the blood bags was "unsatisfactory" for the whole anti-doping community. "It's embarrassing for Spain. Everybody knows we will be able to uncover quite a bit more doping if the examples are made available."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/22359051

I cannot help feeling that OP is a cheat in some way or other and he lost RS previous respect for him that night.

 

[Carol70]

Excerpt from June 2013 Vanity Fair:

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2013/05/oscar-pistorius-murder-case-he-shot-her

“On the second of January, Oscar brought Reeva down to Cape Town, and they took my daughter and me out for breakfast,” Steenkamp’s cousin Kim Martin recalls. “We spent about two hours together. I thought he was a nice guy, but when Oscar walked away from the table, I asked Reeva, ‘Are you happy?’ And she smiled and said in a hesitant response, ‘Yes,’ but I could see in her response something. And she said, ‘We will have a chat.’ I felt there were things that they had to deal with. They looked good together, happy together, but there was something that she could not talk to me about at the table. She said, ‘We will talk about it another time.’ But we never did.”

Thanks, very interesting comments. I guess no one thought that maybe Reeva was the jealous one and not OP. definitely puts another spin on things. This must be the exclusive interview Botha was giving when his wife was talking to YOU mag.

Shane, was mentioned in the article sneak peek I think, that Botha said splinters in her hair was confirmed at autopsy?

It's very frustrating that for once the SAP are doing their jobs and not selling off pics and leaking info!!

 

[Carol70]

Sorry, just went to read again and it's not mentioned at all by Botha about splinters. That is actually new information to me??

Hopefully someone reads the article and reports back if possible.

 

[shane13]

Sorry, just went to read again and it's not mentioned at all by Botha about splinters. That is actually new information to me??

Hopefully someone reads the article and reports back if possible.

I said it was in the comments.

Someone sounded like he knows--but obviously we don't know who that is, and if s/he is spinning.

 

[shane13]

Here's a link to video of Kim Martin interview. Also has photos of young Reeva.

http://piersmorgan.blogs.cnn.com/20...eeva-steenkamps-cousin-on-her-life-and-death/

 

[kittychi]

<snipped>
Hopefully someone reads the article and reports back if possible.

...just got my VF today, but will have NO time to read that article probably until Sunday. Will report back when I get a chance!