George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[Sillybilly]

Many posts have been removed. Stop the back and forth bickering in this thread and leave the attitudes at the door.

If it continues, thread bans will be issued.

 

[turaj]

BBM

Something I read in an article someone posted yesterday.. in the second autopsy, they didn't have a lot to work with. The arteries were already dissected (organs removed, etc.), so I'm not sure how that ME could even make that statement.

Also.. JMO, but I have read Baker's autopsy report, I wouldn't want his arteries.

who would want arteries with at least one clogged up 90%?

 

[MsBetsy]

BBM

Something I read in an article someone posted yesterday.. in the second autopsy, they didn't have a lot to work with. The arteries were already dissected (organs removed, etc.), so I'm not sure how that ME could even make that statement.

Also.. JMO, but I have read Baker's autopsy report, I wouldn't want his arteries.

Yes, he had tissue and organ samples, etc, that had been saved from the original autopsy, but I don't think that's uncommon for a second autopsy.

Dr. Bader is well known for his work on high profile cases. The prosecution's expert witnesses have supported his finding that Floyd died as a result of asphyxiation from LE's neck and back compression, so I think that's what's most important. Imo

 

[mickey2942]

So if a person is admitted to the hospital for covid, or any other medical problem, they can't be tested for underlying conditions if they have Medicaid?

I think that is OT, but really depends on the "culture of care" for each hospital. Where I worked, as soon as an ER admitted overdose PT could stand up, he was discharged. Same with pregnancy, an ER admitted pregnancy was often discharged same day.

 

[MsBetsy]

He looks uncomfortable to me. He's a city employee. Imo he minimized information on the autopsy that would cause another city employee to look bad.

I wonder how the autopsy would have read if the perpetrators were three civilians rather than three city employees.

Yeah, he did seem to have that "deer caught in the headlights" look. That he did not look at the video evidence before the autopsy might be seen as negligent. In any homicide case where asphyxiation is possible, I would think it would be important, especially since there are often no physical signs.

If this had been a suffocation case and there were no physical signs, looking at other evidence, such as a plastic bag or tape found at the scene would be helpful. Imo

 

[margarita25]

Rsbm BBM
Dr. Bader is well known for his work on high profile cases. The prosecution's expert witnesses have supported his finding that Floyd died as a result of asphyxiation from LE's neck and back compression, so I think that's what's most important. Imo

Interesting, I looked it up:
Michael Baden - Wikipedia

“Michael M. Baden (born July 27, 1934[1]) is an American physician and board-certified forensic pathologist known for his work investigating high-profile deaths and as the host of HBO's Autopsy.[2] Baden was the chief medical examiner of the City of New York from 1978 to 1979. He was also chairman of the House Select Committee on Assassinations' Forensic Pathology Panel that investigated the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Baden's independent autopsy findings are often in conflict with the local authorities' opinions.[3]“

[...]

“Baden maintains a private forensic pathology consulting practice. He has been a consulting or lead pathologist and an expert witness on a number of other high-profile cases and investigations. He testified at the trial of O. J. Simpson on behalf of the defendant,[16] at Sergeant Evan Vela's court martial,[18] and on behalf of Phil Spector at the latter's murder trial, while Baden's wife served as Spector's defense attorney.[17] He has been hired to conduct private autopsies in a number of cases, including the shooting of Michael Brown[19] and the deaths of New England Patriots football player Aaron Hernandez,[20] civil rights lawyer and politician Chokwe Lumumba,[21] George Floyd[22] and African-American artist Ellis Ruley.[23][24]

Baden was the Forensic Science Contributor for Fox News, and a frequent guest on Fox's late-night satirical program Red Eye where he was known as the "Death Correspondent".[25][26] Baden also has his own television series on HBO: Autopsy.[27]

Some of his opinions have been considered controversial, especially where he has opposed the findings of the county coroner.[28][10][29] New York Magazine journalist Sarah Weinmann labeled Baden as a "celebrity pathologist."[14]“

[...]

“In October 2019, Baden was hired by Jeffrey Epstein's brother, and observed the autopsy done by city officials following Epstein's death in custody at a federal facility in New York City on sex trafficking charges. Baden disputed New York City chief medical examiner Barbara Sampson's conclusion that Epstein's death was a suicide, asserting that three fractures in Epstein's neck were more consistent with homicide by strangulation and rarely seen in suicide by hanging.[47][9] Baden has stated that the autopsy "points to homicide".[47]“

 

[Boodles]

.. and yet his autopsy did say along the lines of complicating / untoward event due to LE.

IMO, his report was strange. Yes, I understand trying to be objective. But his wording of cause of death is so odd, it’s why the prosecution called the other medical experts, i.e., to make it clear, IMO. I hope it doesn’t lead to controversy when jurors deliberate.

I also find it odd to not want to know the circumstances (via video) before conducting the autopsy. Autopsies are supposed to take everything into account: victimology, circumstances, etc. Dr G used all the details in determining Caylee Anthony’s CoD. I remember her explaining the process.

Would you not want to know that a victim was found at the bottom of a river before concluding he drowned? After all the autopsies he’s done and his experience, certainly he should be accustomed to keeping an open mind when determining CoD. I don’t understand why the report is so vague in that regard.

 

[shotgun09]

Interesting, I looked it up:
Michael Baden - Wikipedia

“Michael M. Baden (born July 27, 1934[1]) is an American physician and board-certified forensic pathologist known for his work investigating high-profile deaths and as the host of HBO's Autopsy.[2] Baden was the chief medical examiner of the City of New York from 1978 to 1979. He was also chairman of the House Select Committee on Assassinations' Forensic Pathology Panel that investigated the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Baden's independent autopsy findings are often in conflict with the local authorities' opinions.[3]“

[...]

“Baden maintains a private forensic pathology consulting practice. He has been a consulting or lead pathologist and an expert witness on a number of other high-profile cases and investigations. He testified at the trial of O. J. Simpson on behalf of the defendant,[16] at Sergeant Evan Vela's court martial,[18] and on behalf of Phil Spector at the latter's murder trial, while Baden's wife served as Spector's defense attorney.[17] He has been hired to conduct private autopsies in a number of cases, including the shooting of Michael Brown[19] and the deaths of New England Patriots football player Aaron Hernandez,[20] civil rights lawyer and politician Chokwe Lumumba,[21] George Floyd[22] and African-American artist Ellis Ruley.[23][24]

Baden was the Forensic Science Contributor for Fox News, and a frequent guest on Fox's late-night satirical program Red Eye where he was known as the "Death Correspondent".[25][26] Baden also has his own television series on HBO: Autopsy.[27]

Some of his opinions have been considered controversial, especially where he has opposed the findings of the county coroner.[28][10][29] New York Magazine journalist Sarah Weinmann labeled Baden as a "celebrity pathologist."[14]“

[...]

“In October 2019, Baden was hired by Jeffrey Epstein's brother, and observed the autopsy done by city officials following Epstein's death in custody at a federal facility in New York City on sex trafficking charges. Baden disputed New York City chief medical examiner Barbara Sampson's conclusion that Epstein's death was a suicide, asserting that three fractures in Epstein's neck were more consistent with homicide by strangulation and rarely seen in suicide by hanging.[47][9] Baden has stated that the autopsy "points to homicide".[47]“

Yes, I can recall some extreme flip-flopping by Baden during the Casey Anthony trial. Initially, he was a talking head expert on the news, speaking in favor of the State's case against CA, and their autopsy results. Later on, midway through the case, his wife Linda Kenney-Baden was hired by the defense, and Dr Baden's views did a complete turn about. It was eye opening to me then, how professional "expert witnesses" can be persuaded to change their views.
I wouldn't trust a thing he tried to tell me, because of that experience. But that's just me... The jury here? Do they know of Baden's questionable history? Probably not.

 

[turaj]

BBM

Something I read in an article someone posted yesterday.. in the second autopsy, they didn't have a lot to work with. The arteries were already dissected (organs removed, etc.), so I'm not sure how that ME could even make that statement.

Also.. JMO, but I have read Baker's autopsy report, I wouldn't want his arteries.

who would want arteries with at least one clogged up 90%?

Yes, he had tissue and organ samples, etc, that had been saved from the original autopsy, but I don't think that's uncommon for a second autopsy.

Dr. Bader is well known for his work on high profile cases. The prosecution's expert witnesses have supported his finding that Floyd died as a result of asphyxiation from LE's neck and back compression, so I think that's what's most important. Imo

Dr. Baden is a big name hired gun and I far prefer to hear from a local doctor not being paid. Cyril Wecht was approached by the defense but refused the case because he could not support their theory. Good for him.

 

[MsBetsy]

We might get some type of answer from Wanda...the woman in the backseat of the car by Cup Foods. I believe she is on the list of witnesses. 'Maurice' or Morrise ( Mr Hall) ..will not be a willing participant in answering that question..or so we have heard.

Yes. I couldn't think of his name and I didn't want to call him the guy in the red and white outfit again. Maybe we will find out more from Wanda. For some reason I'm thinking Floyd had only just met up with them to go to the store. Imo

 

[margarita25]

Yes, I can recall some extreme flip-flopping by Baden during the Casey Anthony trial. Initially, he was a talking head expert on the news, speaking in favor of the State's case against CA, and their autopsy results. Later on, midway through the case, his wife Linda Kenney-Baden was hired by the defense, and Dr Baden's views did a complete turn about. It was eye opening to me then, how professional "expert witnesses" can be persuaded to change their views.
I wouldn't trust a thing he tried to tell me, because of that experience. But that's just me... The jury here? Do they know of Baden's questionable history? Probably not.

Additionally, from the same link:

“Baden was the chief medical examiner of the City of New York from 1978 to 1979, but was removed from his position by New York City Mayor Ed Koch, after Koch had received complaints about his work, including memos from district attorney Robert Morgenthau and city health commissioner Reinaldo Ferrer, documenting their criticism of Baden for “sloppy record keeping, poor judgment, and a lack of cooperation".[8][9][10][11][4][12][13] In 1979, Baden's onetime lawyer Robert Tanenbaum defended his autopsy methods, while also acknowledging his lack of cooperation with the New York establishment.[14] Baden later won $100,000 in a wrongful-termination suit.[7]“

[...]

“Afterward, Baden was hired as deputy medical examiner for Suffolk County, but was dismissed for allegedly making inappropriate comments about how to commit the perfect murder.[8][16][17][9] An article in Oui Magazinequoted him describing how to get away with "high tech murder," but Baden strongly refuted it.[7] The decision to let him go was rescinded shortly thereafter, as the circumstances of his alleged comments were unclear, but Baden chose to leave the position nonetheless.[17]”

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes, I can recall some extreme flip-flopping by Baden during the Casey Anthony trial. Initially, he was a talking head expert on the news, speaking in favor of the State's case against CA, and their autopsy results. Later on, midway through the case, his wife Linda Kenney-Baden was hired by the defense, and Dr Baden's views did a complete turn about. It was eye opening to me then, how professional "expert witnesses" can be persuaded to change their views.
I wouldn't trust a thing he tried to tell me, because of that experience. But that's just me... The jury here? Do they know of Baden's questionable history? Probably not.

That's probably why they are not having him testify. I think the other witnesses have done a good job in explaining mechanical asphyxiation so I don't think they need him at all. Imo

 

[Legally Bland]

Oh since you said to google them I thought they had been released.

Trying to understand how much of a contributing factor the drugs would be is a huge factor IMO to the case, because I’m looking at it as an interaction with a cop who has no knowledge of his medical history. Would a person with no drugs in their system have died under these circumstances is a question that’s important to me.

I don't think it matters if drugs were a contributing factor, it would need to be a causal factor (at least in the case of 2nd degree murder).

From the defense's proposed jury instructions:
_____

The fact that other causes contributed to the death does not relieve the defendant of criminal liability. However, the defendant is not criminally liable if a “superseding cause” caused the death. A “superseding cause” is a cause that comes after the defendant’s acts, alters the natural sequence of events, and produces a result that would not otherwise have occurred. An overdose or heart failure that causes death is a superseding intervening cause.

https://mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/me...20-12646/ProposedJuryInstructions02082021.pdf

 

[Dogface]

Prosecutors say Chauvin kept his knee on teenager’s back for 17 minutes in 2017, while the boy said ‘I can’t breathe’ - Minnesota Reformer

I came across this, and was wondering if anyone knew if this prior body cam footage was going to be allowed in? I find it interesting because while it involves a teen, he was quite similar to GF in size.

 

[margarita25]

Prosecutors say Chauvin kept his knee on teenager’s back for 17 minutes in 2017, while the boy said ‘I can’t breathe’ - Minnesota Reformer

I came across this, and was wondering if anyone knew if this prior body cam footage was going to be allowed in? I find it interesting because while it involves a teen, he was quite similar to GF in size.

Wow...

 

[Sleuther12345]

Prosecutors say Chauvin kept his knee on teenager’s back for 17 minutes in 2017, while the boy said ‘I can’t breathe’ - Minnesota Reformer

I came across this, and was wondering if anyone knew if this prior body cam footage was going to be allowed in? I find it interesting because while it involves a teen, he was quite similar to GF in size.

Gosh that's terrible the boy's mother must have been scared as well. Sounds like DC has a terrible temper.

 

[missy1974]

IMO, his report was strange. Yes, I understand trying to be objective. But his wording of cause of death is so odd, it’s why the prosecution called the other medical experts, i.e., to make it clear, IMO. I hope it doesn’t lead to controversy when jurors deliberate.

I also find it odd to not want to know the circumstances (via video) before conducting the autopsy. Autopsies are supposed to take everything into account: victimology, circumstances, etc. Dr G used all the details in determining Caylee Anthony’s CoD. I remember her explaining the process.

Would you not want to know that a victim was found at the bottom of a river before concluding he drowned? After all the autopsies he’s done and his experience, certainly he should be accustomed to keeping an open mind when determining CoD. I don’t understand why the report is so vague in that regard.

I am still rewatching Bakers testimony, but my impression is that he had the particulars about what happened, but just didn't watch the video before performing the autopsy; however, he did watch it before completing his report.

He had enough information to know that doing a dissection on his back/neck was important to the case, he did say that this is not typically done in an autopsty IIRC.

 

[margarita25]

Dbm

 

[kimpage]

Oh since you said to google them I thought they had been released.

Trying to understand how much of a contributing factor the drugs would be is a huge factor IMO to the case, because I’m looking at it as an interaction with a cop who has no knowledge of his medical history. Would a person with no drugs in their system have died under these circumstances is a question that’s important to me.

It was testified a HEALTHY person would have died if DC did it to a healthy person

 

[kittythehare]

Dbm

Which bit, Margarita, please?