George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[GarAndTeed]

Might have been helpful if the police officers had commenced CPR when they couldn't find a pulse.

Yeah, could've made a BIG difference <eyeroll>

 

[Simply Southern]

@dixiegirl1035 you're my savior! Yes, a link would be great- I haven't been able to watch a lot of the trial. I'd love to see that footage-thanks SO much!

Total agree!!! This thread has an OUTSTANDING team working in the media thread and helping me catch up.

Thanks so much @Tippy Lynn @dixiegirl1035 @Niner and everyone who's helping.

 

[MsBetsy]

I need to watch the video. I admit I'm behind, missed 2 days with family stuff.

I was going by the testimony...it was 8 minutes before oxygen was applied. Even with only one EMT doing CPR a mask is slapped on at a high flow.

Off to watch videos

Yes, the paramedic said there was no reason why CPR couldn't have been done at the scene. Any citizen or police officer can start CPR. Floyd might have had a greater chance at survival if they had got his heart pumping before paramedics got there.

Chauvin also failed to report to paramedics that they had been kneeling on Floyd's neck. I think that's why they seemed so confused as to why he was in the condition he was in (already dead) when they got there. They did not know that he had stopped breathing and was unresponsive before the officer checked his pulse.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Total agree!!! This thread has an OUTSTANDING team working in the media thread and helping me catch up.

Thanks so much @Tippy Lynn @dixiegirl1035 @Niner and everyone who's helping.

Just a heads up to ALLLLL the folks that have helped to update the media/documents /timeline thread.

I used to give shout outs to those that posted on the main threads for recognition, but in the future, for better flow, I'll not give individual attention to those that contributed to such when transferred from the main thread of the day.

So............thanks to ALL that give posts which end up transferred there from main threads without, in the future, a shout out as to who posted... as a TIA!

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Just a heads up to ALLLLL the folks that have helped to update the media/documents /timeline thread.

I used to give shout outs to those that posted on the main threads for recognition, but in the future, for better flow, I'll not give individual attention to those that contributed to such.

So............thanks to ALL that give posts which end up transferred there from main threads as a TIA!

Thank you for all your work on this trial and thread - much appreciated by all!!!!

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Yes, the paramedic said there was no reason why CPR couldn't have been done at the scene. Any citizen or police officer can start CPR. Floyd might have had a greater chance at survival if they had got his heart pumping before paramedics got there.

Chauvin also failed to report to paramedics that they had been kneeling on Floyd's neck. I think that's why they seemed so confused as to why he was in the condition he was in (already dead) when they got there. They did not know that he had stopped breathing and was unresponsive before the officer checked his pulse.

If you watch when Lane was in the ambulance, I was WHAT? He didn't answer as to what I thought was appropriate and to give info they needed. At all. MOO As to when asked what happened. MOO

Sitting on hands as I do indeed have more empathy for Lane as was his d*mn first week solo with a new partner on the job... and then I fulcrum to this was your time to speak out!

 

[turaj]

Do we have a thread for today? Maybe I missed it?

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I wonder who is scheduled to testify today? Will this be the last day of the state’s case in chief?

IMO Dr Tobin was one of the best witnesses for the prosecution, he executed his testimony brilliantly and chose his words carefully so jurors wouldn’t get confused. He basically talked us through those 9 minutes and 29 seconds of video in layman’s terms, whether he had a heart condition or drug use it doesn’t matter, a healthy person would have died from that length of physical restraint and lack of oxygen, add in the refusal of Chauvin to even roll GF over or into the recovery position and its manslaughter at the least imo but I also believe that his actions showed indifference to human life, reckless behaviour by ignoring the signs that GF was in a critical condition and the brutal neck kneeling when GF was struggling to breathe which could make this murder. MOO

The testimony of other police officers slamming DC’s actions, the police chief, seargant, lieutenant all testifying for the state will be a huge hurdle the defence will struggle to overcome IMO. Unless Nelson has experts and witnesses, police officers and a ME of his own to rebuff all the state’s claims then I don’t see DC getting any less than manslaughter.

 

[SouthAussie]

Do we have a thread for today? Maybe I missed it?

MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #14 - Chauvin Trial Day 11

JerseyGirl posted it on the previous page. We've been commenting a bit since it was posted.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Do we have a thread for today? Maybe I missed it?

MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #14 - Chauvin Trial Day 11

 

[turaj]

So far and of course we have an entire defense case ahead...it seems like the topic of discussion in jury room will be 2nd vs 3rd...manslaughter is a given as is no acquittal.

 

[GarAndTeed]

Lemme check to see if I can find in the media thread... it's his body cam near the end and I'll do an ETA with timestamp for you.

ETA: Found in the media thread using the search term "lane"

Has complete bodycam videos of Lane and his partner

Start at 51:40 when ambo does the load and go, Lane gets in.. and we see the efforts in the ambulance.... which I believe is what you are asking for.

WARNING - VERY UPSETTING AND GRAPHIC - ROLL AND SCROLL IF YOU DON'T WANT TO VIEW

[/QUOTE]
WOW...
Thanks @dixiegirl1035 !

 

[TwistedMysteryWriter]

(First time caller, long time listener...)


Motive and Opportunity

Chauvin, as far as anyone knows, had no motive to kill GF or anyone else. But Opportunity? Ironically, he had MULTIPLE opportunities to do right by the subject he was “retaining” for questioning. Instead, Chauvin used those opportunities to play Touch Guy and Know It All and it is his ego and the actions that ego caused him to intentionally take that caused GFs death.

1) GF explained to officers that the reason he was acting “weird” is because he’d been in the same position on another occasion and had been shot.

2) GF informed officers that he suffered from claustrophobia.

3) GF repeatedly informed officers that he could not breath. This alone counts as more than one opportunity.

4) Chauvin’s fellow offers, on at least three occasions, ‘suggested’ that Chauvin turn GF over to his side so that he could get air.

5) Not to mention, but I will, calls and instructions from bystanders.

Chauvin INTENTIONALLY chose to ignore every person involved including his victim and his victim’s obvious distress and remained unmoved, physically and mentally, as if to suggest he had everything under control, knew exactly what he was doing, and that he was right about his decision as to how to handle GF and everyone else (the majority) were wrong. Chauvin, without any proof at the time, decided that GF was on drugs.

I’m not ignoring the fact that GF did have drugs in his system, but one must consider two things: Was he being influenced by them at the time, and to what extent? Yes, drugs were found in GFs system, but cops on-scene did not know he had taken any drugs until after an autopsy was conducted. Therefore, if Chauvin felt that GF was some junkie high on drugs, then was it not Chauvin’s responsibility to get GF medical assistance immediately? If GF had been a white business man, I expect Chauvin’s interpretation of GF’s behavior and his assessment of GF’s condition would have been very different. There was a prejudice at work on Chauvin’s part. He laughed everything off to drug use.

Now let’s supposed GF was a white guy in a suit and tie…
As I understand it, George Floyd was at a convenience store just picking up a pack of smokes. (I’m shocked that Nelson hasn’t blamed the cigarette manufacturer for George Floyd’s death, but he’s got time.) George Floyd unknowingly handed the cashier a counterfeit twenty. Why do I say “unknowingly”? Because after completing the transaction, the cashier examined the bill to determine if it was real. Then, I believe, the cashier consulted with the store manager. Then, the police were called in. Then the convenience store workers waited for the police to get there. Then, the police arrived, entered the store and asked some questions. Then they went outside to see if the guy who’d pawned off the fake bill was still there -- and lo and behold, he was! George Floyd was still parked just outside the convenience store he’d allegedly just swindled with a fake twenty-dollar bill. He could have been long-gone by then. Why would anyone knowingly pass a fake bill of money and then NOT make a hasty retreat from the establishment they’d just ripped off – knowing the place would call the cops? Because GF didn’t know the money was a forgery.

There are other considerations regarding this…

· If I have a twenty-dollar bill that I know is fake and I want cigarettes, why am I only buying ONE pack? Just get rid of the bill and get some smokes! Well, maybe I need change. Maybe I need real money for gas. But then, why not buy gas? And if I’m going to pass off my fake bill at a convenience store first, why buy something expensive? Why not buy a pack of gum?

· Real money was found in GF’s car. Why intentionally use a fake bill and risk arrest for a pack of cigarettes when he had real cash?

· GF’s surprise at the cops being at his car (in addition to him still being at the scene) also tells me that if his bill was counterfeit, he didn’t know it.

· And why was he given his cigarette purchase at all? If it’s the store policy to scan bills over certain denominations, then the bill should have been scanned before handing GF the pack of cigs. Something is off here.

The bill should have been scanned before making the transaction and then, as he stood behind his bullet proof glass, the cashier should have refused GF his purchase and informed him that the bill was fake and that the police were being called. If GF had been a white guy in a suit and tie, would this have been how the ‘business’ of the phony twenty would have been handled?

Regardless, while inside the convenience store, GF is seen boppin’ around a bit and gently swaying back and forth. Oh! He must be high! I believe the cashier mentioned this to the police on-scene? Later, video footage from the store was used to “back up” Chauvin’s stated belief that GF was on drugs. But Chauvin had no way of knowing this with certainty without having GF tested for drugs.

If GF had been a white guy in a suit and tie, would his ‘odd’ movements in the convenience store been so suspect? Was there music playing in the store at the time? I often rock back and forth and “dance” in place to music playing in public places. Wasn’t GF into music? Wasn’t he a composer of music? Most musicians, whether or not they like a style of music, a song, or an artist, will still appreciate certain nuances of a musical piece; perhaps an instrument or a particular beat -- and you will see them react to it, in public, in a myriad of ways. But I guess the music was all in George Floyd’s head. No one’s going to bother to find out if there was music playing in the store because they’ve already determined that he had drugs in his system, but the whole smearing of GF by police at the scene, assumptions made about him before anything was known, really p*sses me off.

Police decided GF was acting “weird” because of how startled he was when he turned to see police at his window after one of them rapped on it with a nightstick. He also saw a gun aimed at HIS head. And oddly, the cops think they it’s unusual for someone to freak out about that.

GF answered their question about his response. He immediately explained that he’d been shot before, while in the same position; the driver’s side of a car. GF was a big guy. Big guys don’t fit in standard-sized places, including the cabin spaces of vehicles – and especially not the backs of police cars, but I’ll get to that.

I knew of a man who was stopped by a police officer and told to step out of his car. He was a big guy. He had to adjust the seat position to slide it up, toward the steering wheel, so that he could comfortably step out of the car. When driving, his long legs needed that extra room, but keeping the seat back beyond the framework of the car door made it difficult for him to simply open that door and climb out of the car. As the guy reached down to adjust the seat using its side handle, the cop fired a bullet into his head. His black head.

Another man, also a big guy, also black, had a similar thing happen to him. He was stopped by a police offer and told to step out of the car. The driver went to unfasten his seat belt. Bam. I’m sure you’ve heard about men being asked for identification and when they reach into a coat pocket, a side panel of their car, the glove compartment, or the console, BANG!

So before knowing a thing about him, the police rap on his car window with a nightstick AND aim a gun at him. And GF freaks out. Therefore, he must be high, right? What if he’d been a white guy in a suit and tie?

His reaction did not suggest that he was high, but that he was scared. Scared out of his wits. It’s worth repeating that GF immediately explained that he’d once been shot – actually shot -- when in the same position; sitting in the driver’s seat of a car. His autopsy later revealed a circular scar over his left clavicle. The clavicle is the long bone that connects the shoulders. The left side of his clavicle would be a prominent spot, other than his head, that someone standing outside of the car and off to the side of/behind him would hit when shooting a gun. So yeah, believing that GF had been in a position on another occasion where someone drew a gun and shot him (because he perhaps failed to indicate that he was about to release a seat belt or adjust a chair, or just put down his lit cigarette…) makes me question if he suffered from undiagnosed and/or untreated PTSD.

Now, a panic or anxiety attack would be a NORMAL reaction for ANYONE to have if they suddenly turned to see a police officer outside their parked vehicle aiming a gun at their head. A white guy in a suit and tie who reacted that way would, I expect, be considered by police to be reacting to fear of the gun, not acting “weird” and ‘automatically’ under the influence of something. That reaction would be even more expected, heightened, and certainly understandable if the white business man had been shot before and explained this. Trained police officers would consider that he may have PTSD. But not GF. No. It had to be drugs that caused him to react so fearfully.

Let’s add to his response to something else GF was sure to inform the police offers of: that he suffered from claustrophobia. Now THIS was the officers’ opportunity to handle GF properly and respectfully, but instead of doing right by him, they decided he was some junkie who needed to be manhandled and they applied force rather than what they would probably have done if GF were a white guy in a suit and tie.

GF had clearly stated that he’d been shot before.
He’d stated that he was claustrophobic.
To the police, he seemed a little crazy, or weird. And he was black. Must be drugs! It couldn’t possibly be that he HAD been shot before and that he WAS claustrophobic.

If GF were a white guy in a suit and tie and he boarded an airplane, the crew would be trained to recognize the signs of anxiety, panic, and distress associated with both fear of flying and claustrophobia. If the white guy in suit and tie said nothing at all, but was fidgety and acting “weird”, it is likely one of the crew members would speak to him to see if he could even handle the flight. Now I’m thinking that GF would never have boarded a plane to begin with, but just stay with me. We’re talking about a white guy in a suit and tie. Let’s say this guy told the cabin crew that he was claustrophobic before take-off. Depending on how agitated he was, the crew might decide to have him escorted off the airplane. If, after take-off, he started acting “weird” and he then explained that he was claustrophobic and started experiencing intense panic and anxiety, the Captain (pilot) would have every right (and in some cases, a responsibility) to make an emergency landing to get the affected passenger medical help as well as keep other passengers and the crew safe. Now imagine that white guy in a business suit boarding a plane, acting “weird” (scared) and INFORMING a crew member that he 1) was in a plane crash before and 2) he’s claustrophobic. Do you think anyone would try to force him to remain on the plane?

Yet, after being informed BY their subject (GF) that he’d been shot before and is now fearful, and that he’s also claustrophobic, and after seeing him calm when allowed to sit and rest on the sidewalk; not pleading and screaming and putting up any struggle at all – the police tried shoving his big body into a little space, the back of a squad car. Scared of being shot AND the of being placed into a stuffy, closed-off chamber with closed windows offering no fresh air on a warm day, handcuffed and unable to escape an extreme fear, GF goes into full panic/anxiety mode – something police are trained to recognize. They see this in victims who have just been attacked, raped, hit by a car, or had a loved one undergo something horrific. Are you telling me that after all his experience on the force Chauvin could not distinguish a valid fear from a drug-induced delusion???

In GF’s surge of fear, when stress hormones overtake his body, he fights it. He doesn’t fight the cops. He fights being placed in that small, enclosed space. He did not kick anyone. He did not bite anyone. He did not threaten anyone or try to head-butt anyone. All he did was try to prevent cops from locking him up in that little cave they call ‘the backseat of a squad car.’ And in his fight and fear, the big strong man slithered and slid right out the other end. And THAT was when every single police officer should have known he had some kind of mental or emotional problem/issue with claustrophobia.

So I ask you, if their job is to protect and serve, why did these officers not call for some kind of police van/paddy wagon -- or an ambulance at that moment? GF was cuffed. Just sit him back down on the sidewalk and call paramedics. Even if the police don’t believe his claustrophobia claim, if they really believe he’s under the influence of something, then taking him to the hospital for blood testing and possible treatment is warranted. You know… protect and serve?

But they chose to ignore these indications, these signs of distress – the very same behaviors they are trained to recognize. Chauvin just chalked it up to drug use. Maybe he didn’t hear the part about GF being shot before. Maybe he didn’t believe the claustrophobia claim. But he had eyes that worked well enough to see things he DECIDED indicated drug-use and he had ears that heard George Floyd telling him that he could not breath. Chauvin had been given at least one chance prior to that to get GF medical help before the man was ever put on the ground, and ever cry for help and statement GF made about not being able to breathe was another chance. Even his own officers gave him multiple chances. He intentionally ignored them all.

I want to remind you that GF was cuffed BEFORE being pushed into the squad car. The way he was cuffed was not correct, considering his size and shoulder span. That white guy in a business suit, if cuffed at all, would have had the cuffs extended. Did you see the size of GF’s wrist and hands? Cuffing him the way the police did caused his large arms and elbows to jut out uncomfortably. Using one pair of cuffs on a man that most certainly required two pairs linked together for him to be able to move without being in pain or straining himself. I’m not talking so loose or with so much ‘give’ that he’d have enough room to jump-rope through or wrap around a cop’s neck in a choke hold, but enough so that his arms and shoulders aren’t pulled back so tightly, which affects the breathing, by the way…

So they cuff GF in a way that I personally feel is abusive, and then they drag him into a tiny tunnel of the cavity of the back of a squad car. As one would expect from someone with while claustrophobia, GF reacts. This is when the police place him on the ground, face down, his arms still so tightly bound that he looked like dressed poultry. That was hard to watch in itself. Pinned to the ground, face down, chest to the pavement, with police offers climbing on him, one in particular kneeling on him and placing his weight on GF’s neck, back, shoulder, and chest, his claustrophobic panic attack heightens. One of the fears of claustrophobia is inability to breath, and GF cannot breathe. He tells them so. And he fights – not to break away from the officers, but from the death grip; to turn himself so that he can inhale some air. Officer Lane reminded Chauvin of the very protocol that Chauvin trains other offers to follow, suggesting that Chauvin roll GF onto his side. More chances to do right by GF, by a citizen. Except Chauvin is insists, through his action and lack thereof, that GF is basically an out-of-control junkie, a big guy with drug-induced superhuman strength, and therefore, Chauvin s going to show everyone how it’s done.

Motive? Not to kill. To control. Opportunity? Not to kill, but to save a life – and Chauvin ignored ALL opportunities he was given, and he was given so many. So many times he had the opportunity to make a good decision, a sensible one, one that his very police force demanded of him, and he intentionally chose not to.

Lastly, I want to point out the most horrific part of this entire tragic encounter… Chauvin’s restraint and what the trained officer’s eyes could see. Regardless of the fact that he chose to intentionally ignore (and even laugh at) GF’s cries for help and screams that he was unable to breath, Chauvin could see GF’s face and head --- and the skin of it, which turned a dark blue-black from lack of oxygen as compared to his shoulders which were normal in color. Drugs or no drugs, the discoloration in GF’s skin, the “line of demarcation” being at the neck area, clearly shows that GF was getting inadequate to no air and even blood circulation, turning dark and blue-black the same way a gangrenous foot or a frostbitten finger would. And you’re telling me that Chauvin did not notice this? GF was wearing a tank top. The color differences are not only extremely vivid and visible, but any layperson could see how drastic it was. And Chauvin had a front row seat – George Floyd’s neck! We see Chauvin, his knee/shin/whatever body part you wish, pushing his own body weight onto GF’s neck. And as he does this, he IS watching GF and IGNORING the obvious skin darkening ad discoloration that occurred, even after his fellow officers suggest he turn GF on his side, even after they tell Chauvin “He’s out” or “He’s not breathing,” or what-have-you. Nope! Chauvin continues posing like a hunter who just bagged big game on safari, hands in his pockets, proudly in control. It’s remarkable he would CONTINUE to do this KNOWING he was being recorded by bystanders and think that his hands (and knees) would be clean of it. So, now that I think of it, maybe he did have motive… not to kill, but to look like a bigshot. Over twenty bucks.

I would be very interested in Members' thoughts and reactions to this.

 

[GarAndTeed]

If you watch when Lane was in the ambulance, I was WHAT? He didn't answer as to what I thought was appropriate and to give info they needed. At all. MOO As to when asked what happened. MOO

Sitting on hands as I do indeed have more empathy for Lane as was his d*mn first week solo with a new partner on the job... and then I fulcrum to this was your time to speak out!

I noticed that; also, the woman saying if it was witnessed (the cardiac arrest) that's when it needed to start...yep.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

TRIAL HAS BEGUN..........on other thread

MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #14 - Chauvin Trial Day 11

 

[MsBetsy]

If you watch when Lane was in the ambulance, I was WHAT? He didn't answer as to what I thought was appropriate and to give info they needed. At all. MOO As to when asked what happened. MOO

Sitting on hands as I do indeed have more empathy for Lane as was his d*mn first week solo with a new partner on the job... and then I fulcrum to this was your time to speak out!

Yes, I noticed that. Even when they got to the hospital and the woman paramedic was asking what happened she said something like, "Well as long as it's filmed and CPR was started immediately I think it's okay," and he just kept saying, "yeah, yeah..." never once mentioning the knee and back restraints.

 

[GarAndTeed]

(First time caller, long time listener...)


Motive and Opportunity

Chauvin, as far as anyone knows, had no motive to kill GF or anyone else. But Opportunity? Ironically, he had MULTIPLE opportunities to do right by the subject he was “retaining” for questioning. Instead, Chauvin used those opportunities to play Touch Guy and Know It All and it is his ego and the actions that ego caused him to intentionally take that caused GFs death.

1) GF explained to officers that the reason he was acting “weird” is because he’d been in the same position on another occasion and had been shot.

2) GF informed officers that he suffered from claustrophobia.

3) GF repeatedly informed officers that he could not breath. This alone counts as more than one opportunity.

4) Chauvin’s fellow offers, on at least three occasions, ‘suggested’ that Chauvin turn GF over to his side so that he could get air.

5) Not to mention, but I will, calls and instructions from bystanders.

Chauvin INTENTIONALLY chose to ignore every person involved including his victim and his victim’s obvious distress and remained unmoved, physically and mentally, as if to suggest he had everything under control, knew exactly what he was doing, and that he was right about his decision as to how to handle GF and everyone else (the majority) were wrong. Chauvin, without any proof at the time, decided that GF was on drugs.

I’m not ignoring the fact that GF did have drugs in his system, but one must consider two things: Was he being influenced by them at the time, and to what extent? Yes, drugs were found in GFs system, but cops on-scene did not know he had taken any drugs until after an autopsy was conducted. Therefore, if Chauvin felt that GF was some junkie high on drugs, then was it not Chauvin’s responsibility to get GF medical assistance immediately? If GF had been a white business man, I expect Chauvin’s interpretation of GF’s behavior and his assessment of GF’s condition would have been very different. There was a prejudice at work on Chauvin’s part. He laughed everything off to drug use.

Now let’s supposed GF was a white guy in a suit and tie…
As I understand it, George Floyd was at a convenience store just picking up a pack of smokes. (I’m shocked that Nelson hasn’t blamed the cigarette manufacturer for George Floyd’s death, but he’s got time.) George Floyd unknowingly handed the cashier a counterfeit twenty. Why do I say “unknowingly”? Because after completing the transaction, the cashier examined the bill to determine if it was real. Then, I believe, the cashier consulted with the store manager. Then, the police were called in. Then the convenience store workers waited for the police to get there. Then, the police arrived, entered the store and asked some questions. Then they went outside to see if the guy who’d pawned off the fake bill was still there -- and lo and behold, he was! George Floyd was still parked just outside the convenience store he’d allegedly just swindled with a fake twenty-dollar bill. He could have been long-gone by then. Why would anyone knowingly pass a fake bill of money and then NOT make a hasty retreat from the establishment they’d just ripped off – knowing the place would call the cops? Because GF didn’t know the money was a forgery.

There are other considerations regarding this…

· If I have a twenty-dollar bill that I know is fake and I want cigarettes, why am I only buying ONE pack? Just get rid of the bill and get some smokes! Well, maybe I need change. Maybe I need real money for gas. But then, why not buy gas? And if I’m going to pass off my fake bill at a convenience store first, why buy something expensive? Why not buy a pack of gum?

· Real money was found in GF’s car. Why intentionally use a fake bill and risk arrest for a pack of cigarettes when he had real cash?

· GF’s surprise at the cops being at his car (in addition to him still being at the scene) also tells me that if his bill was counterfeit, he didn’t know it.

· And why was he given his cigarette purchase at all? If it’s the store policy to scan bills over certain denominations, then the bill should have been scanned before handing GF the pack of cigs. Something is off here.

The bill should have been scanned before making the transaction and then, as he stood behind his bullet proof glass, the cashier should have refused GF his purchase and informed him that the bill was fake and that the police were being called. If GF had been a white guy in a suit and tie, would this have been how the ‘business’ of the phony twenty would have been handled?

Regardless, while inside the convenience store, GF is seen boppin’ around a bit and gently swaying back and forth. Oh! He must be high! I believe the cashier mentioned this to the police on-scene? Later, video footage from the store was used to “back up” Chauvin’s stated belief that GF was on drugs. But Chauvin had no way of knowing this with certainty without having GF tested for drugs.

If GF had been a white guy in a suit and tie, would his ‘odd’ movements in the convenience store been so suspect? Was there music playing in the store at the time? I often rock back and forth and “dance” in place to music playing in public places. Wasn’t GF into music? Wasn’t he a composer of music? Most musicians, whether or not they like a style of music, a song, or an artist, will still appreciate certain nuances of a musical piece; perhaps an instrument or a particular beat -- and you will see them react to it, in public, in a myriad of ways. But I guess the music was all in George Floyd’s head. No one’s going to bother to find out if there was music playing in the store because they’ve already determined that he had drugs in his system, but the whole smearing of GF by police at the scene, assumptions made about him before anything was known, really p*sses me off.

Police decided GF was acting “weird” because of how startled he was when he turned to see police at his window after one of them rapped on it with a nightstick. He also saw a gun aimed at HIS head. And oddly, the cops think they it’s unusual for someone to freak out about that.

GF answered their question about his response. He immediately explained that he’d been shot before, while in the same position; the driver’s side of a car. GF was a big guy. Big guys don’t fit in standard-sized places, including the cabin spaces of vehicles – and especially not the backs of police cars, but I’ll get to that.

I knew of a man who was stopped by a police officer and told to step out of his car. He was a big guy. He had to adjust the seat position to slide it up, toward the steering wheel, so that he could comfortably step out of the car. When driving, his long legs needed that extra room, but keeping the seat back beyond the framework of the car door made it difficult for him to simply open that door and climb out of the car. As the guy reached down to adjust the seat using its side handle, the cop fired a bullet into his head. His black head.

Another man, also a big guy, also black, had a similar thing happen to him. He was stopped by a police offer and told to step out of the car. The driver went to unfasten his seat belt. Bam. I’m sure you’ve heard about men being asked for identification and when they reach into a coat pocket, a side panel of their car, the glove compartment, or the console, BANG!

So before knowing a thing about him, the police rap on his car window with a nightstick AND aim a gun at him. And GF freaks out. Therefore, he must be high, right? What if he’d been a white guy in a suit and tie?

His reaction did not suggest that he was high, but that he was scared. Scared out of his wits. It’s worth repeating that GF immediately explained that he’d once been shot – actually shot -- when in the same position; sitting in the driver’s seat of a car. His autopsy later revealed a circular scar over his left clavicle. The clavicle is the long bone that connects the shoulders. The left side of his clavicle would be a prominent spot, other than his head, that someone standing outside of the car and off to the side of/behind him would hit when shooting a gun. So yeah, believing that GF had been in a position on another occasion where someone drew a gun and shot him (because he perhaps failed to indicate that he was about to release a seat belt or adjust a chair, or just put down his lit cigarette…) makes me question if he suffered from undiagnosed and/or untreated PTSD.

Now, a panic or anxiety attack would be a NORMAL reaction for ANYONE to have if they suddenly turned to see a police officer outside their parked vehicle aiming a gun at their head. A white guy in a suit and tie who reacted that way would, I expect, be considered by police to be reacting to fear of the gun, not acting “weird” and ‘automatically’ under the influence of something. That reaction would be even more expected, heightened, and certainly understandable if the white business man had been shot before and explained this. Trained police officers would consider that he may have PTSD. But not GF. No. It had to be drugs that caused him to react so fearfully.

Let’s add to his response to something else GF was sure to inform the police offers of: that he suffered from claustrophobia. Now THIS was the officers’ opportunity to handle GF properly and respectfully, but instead of doing right by him, they decided he was some junkie who needed to be manhandled and they applied force rather than what they would probably have done if GF were a white guy in a suit and tie.

GF had clearly stated that he’d been shot before.
He’d stated that he was claustrophobic.
To the police, he seemed a little crazy, or weird. And he was black. Must be drugs! It couldn’t possibly be that he HAD been shot before and that he WAS claustrophobic.

If GF were a white guy in a suit and tie and he boarded an airplane, the crew would be trained to recognize the signs of anxiety, panic, and distress associated with both fear of flying and claustrophobia. If the white guy in suit and tie said nothing at all, but was fidgety and acting “weird”, it is likely one of the crew members would speak to him to see if he could even handle the flight. Now I’m thinking that GF would never have boarded a plane to begin with, but just stay with me. We’re talking about a white guy in a suit and tie. Let’s say this guy told the cabin crew that he was claustrophobic before take-off. Depending on how agitated he was, the crew might decide to have him escorted off the airplane. If, after take-off, he started acting “weird” and he then explained that he was claustrophobic and started experiencing intense panic and anxiety, the Captain (pilot) would have every right (and in some cases, a responsibility) to make an emergency landing to get the affected passenger medical help as well as keep other passengers and the crew safe. Now imagine that white guy in a business suit boarding a plane, acting “weird” (scared) and INFORMING a crew member that he 1) was in a plane crash before and 2) he’s claustrophobic. Do you think anyone would try to force him to remain on the plane?

Yet, after being informed BY their subject (GF) that he’d been shot before and is now fearful, and that he’s also claustrophobic, and after seeing him calm when allowed to sit and rest on the sidewalk; not pleading and screaming and putting up any struggle at all – the police tried shoving his big body into a little space, the back of a squad car. Scared of being shot AND the of being placed into a stuffy, closed-off chamber with closed windows offering no fresh air on a warm day, handcuffed and unable to escape an extreme fear, GF goes into full panic/anxiety mode – something police are trained to recognize. They see this in victims who have just been attacked, raped, hit by a car, or had a loved one undergo something horrific. Are you telling me that after all his experience on the force Chauvin could not distinguish a valid fear from a drug-induced delusion???

In GF’s surge of fear, when stress hormones overtake his body, he fights it. He doesn’t fight the cops. He fights being placed in that small, enclosed space. He did not kick anyone. He did not bite anyone. He did not threaten anyone or try to head-butt anyone. All he did was try to prevent cops from locking him up in that little cave they call ‘the backseat of a squad car.’ And in his fight and fear, the big strong man slithered and slid right out the other end. And THAT was when every single police officer should have known he had some kind of mental or emotional problem/issue with claustrophobia.

So I ask you, if their job is to protect and serve, why did these officers not call for some kind of police van/paddy wagon -- or an ambulance at that moment? GF was cuffed. Just sit him back down on the sidewalk and call paramedics. Even if the police don’t believe his claustrophobia claim, if they really believe he’s under the influence of something, then taking him to the hospital for blood testing and possible treatment is warranted. You know… protect and serve?

But they chose to ignore these indications, these signs of distress – the very same behaviors they are trained to recognize. Chauvin just chalked it up to drug use. Maybe he didn’t hear the part about GF being shot before. Maybe he didn’t believe the claustrophobia claim. But he had eyes that worked well enough to see things he DECIDED indicated drug-use and he had ears that heard George Floyd telling him that he could not breath. Chauvin had been given at least one chance prior to that to get GF medical help before the man was ever put on the ground, and ever cry for help and statement GF made about not being able to breathe was another chance. Even his own officers gave him multiple chances. He intentionally ignored them all.

I want to remind you that GF was cuffed BEFORE being pushed into the squad car. The way he was cuffed was not correct, considering his size and shoulder span. That white guy in a business suit, if cuffed at all, would have had the cuffs extended. Did you see the size of GF’s wrist and hands? Cuffing him the way the police did caused his large arms and elbows to jut out uncomfortably. Using one pair of cuffs on a man that most certainly required two pairs linked together for him to be able to move without being in pain or straining himself. I’m not talking so loose or with so much ‘give’ that he’d have enough room to jump-rope through or wrap around a cop’s neck in a choke hold, but enough so that his arms and shoulders aren’t pulled back so tightly, which affects the breathing, by the way…

So they cuff GF in a way that I personally feel is abusive, and then they drag him into a tiny tunnel of the cavity of the back of a squad car. As one would expect from someone with while claustrophobia, GF reacts. This is when the police place him on the ground, face down, his arms still so tightly bound that he looked like dressed poultry. That was hard to watch in itself. Pinned to the ground, face down, chest to the pavement, with police offers climbing on him, one in particular kneeling on him and placing his weight on GF’s neck, back, shoulder, and chest, his claustrophobic panic attack heightens. One of the fears of claustrophobia is inability to breath, and GF cannot breathe. He tells them so. And he fights – not to break away from the officers, but from the death grip; to turn himself so that he can inhale some air. Officer Lane reminded Chauvin of the very protocol that Chauvin trains other offers to follow, suggesting that Chauvin roll GF onto his side. More chances to do right by GF, by a citizen. Except Chauvin is insists, through his action and lack thereof, that GF is basically an out-of-control junkie, a big guy with drug-induced superhuman strength, and therefore, Chauvin s going to show everyone how it’s done.

Motive? Not to kill. To control. Opportunity? Not to kill, but to save a life – and Chauvin ignored ALL opportunities he was given, and he was given so many. So many times he had the opportunity to make a good decision, a sensible one, one that his very police force demanded of him, and he intentionally chose not to.

Lastly, I want to point out the most horrific part of this entire tragic encounter… Chauvin’s restraint and what the trained officer’s eyes could see. Regardless of the fact that he chose to intentionally ignore (and even laugh at) GF’s cries for help and screams that he was unable to breath, Chauvin could see GF’s face and head --- and the skin of it, which turned a dark blue-black from lack of oxygen as compared to his shoulders which were normal in color. Drugs or no drugs, the discoloration in GF’s skin, the “line of demarcation” being at the neck area, clearly shows that GF was getting inadequate to no air and even blood circulation, turning dark and blue-black the same way a gangrenous foot or a frostbitten finger would. And you’re telling me that Chauvin did not notice this? GF was wearing a tank top. The color differences are not only extremely vivid and visible, but any layperson could see how drastic it was. And Chauvin had a front row seat – George Floyd’s neck! We see Chauvin, his knee/shin/whatever body part you wish, pushing his own body weight onto GF’s neck. And as he does this, he IS watching GF and IGNORING the obvious skin darkening ad discoloration that occurred, even after his fellow officers suggest he turn GF on his side, even after they tell Chauvin “He’s out” or “He’s not breathing,” or what-have-you. Nope! Chauvin continues posing like a hunter who just bagged big game on safari, hands in his pockets, proudly in control. It’s remarkable he would CONTINUE to do this KNOWING he was being recorded by bystanders and think that his hands (and knees) would be clean of it. So, now that I think of it, maybe he did have motive… not to kill, but to look like a bigshot. Over twenty bucks.

I would be very interested in Members' thoughts and reactions to this.

FANTASTIC, very well thought out post! Thanks, and welcome to the thread. I look forward to more of your input.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

(First time caller, long time listener...)


Motive and Opportunity

Chauvin, as far as anyone knows, had no motive to kill GF or anyone else. But Opportunity? Ironically, he had MULTIPLE opportunities to do right by the subject he was “retaining” for questioning. Instead, Chauvin used those opportunities to play Touch Guy and Know It All and it is his ego and the actions that ego caused him to intentionally take that caused GFs death.

1) GF explained to officers that the reason he was acting “weird” is because he’d been in the same position on another occasion and had been shot.

2) GF informed officers that he suffered from claustrophobia.

3) GF repeatedly informed officers that he could not breath. This alone counts as more than one opportunity.

4) Chauvin’s fellow offers, on at least three occasions, ‘suggested’ that Chauvin turn GF over to his side so that he could get air.

5) Not to mention, but I will, calls and instructions from bystanders.

Chauvin INTENTIONALLY chose to ignore every person involved including his victim and his victim’s obvious distress and remained unmoved, physically and mentally, as if to suggest he had everything under control, knew exactly what he was doing, and that he was right about his decision as to how to handle GF and everyone else (the majority) were wrong. Chauvin, without any proof at the time, decided that GF was on drugs.

I’m not ignoring the fact that GF did have drugs in his system, but one must consider two things: Was he being influenced by them at the time, and to what extent? Yes, drugs were found in GFs system, but cops on-scene did not know he had taken any drugs until after an autopsy was conducted. Therefore, if Chauvin felt that GF was some junkie high on drugs, then was it not Chauvin’s responsibility to get GF medical assistance immediately? If GF had been a white business man, I expect Chauvin’s interpretation of GF’s behavior and his assessment of GF’s condition would have been very different. There was a prejudice at work on Chauvin’s part. He laughed everything off to drug use.

Now let’s supposed GF was a white guy in a suit and tie…
As I understand it, George Floyd was at a convenience store just picking up a pack of smokes. (I’m shocked that Nelson hasn’t blamed the cigarette manufacturer for George Floyd’s death, but he’s got time.) George Floyd unknowingly handed the cashier a counterfeit twenty. Why do I say “unknowingly”? Because after completing the transaction, the cashier examined the bill to determine if it was real. Then, I believe, the cashier consulted with the store manager. Then, the police were called in. Then the convenience store workers waited for the police to get there. Then, the police arrived, entered the store and asked some questions. Then they went outside to see if the guy who’d pawned off the fake bill was still there -- and lo and behold, he was! George Floyd was still parked just outside the convenience store he’d allegedly just swindled with a fake twenty-dollar bill. He could have been long-gone by then. Why would anyone knowingly pass a fake bill of money and then NOT make a hasty retreat from the establishment they’d just ripped off – knowing the place would call the cops? Because GF didn’t know the money was a forgery.

There are other considerations regarding this…

· If I have a twenty-dollar bill that I know is fake and I want cigarettes, why am I only buying ONE pack? Just get rid of the bill and get some smokes! Well, maybe I need change. Maybe I need real money for gas. But then, why not buy gas? And if I’m going to pass off my fake bill at a convenience store first, why buy something expensive? Why not buy a pack of gum?

· Real money was found in GF’s car. Why intentionally use a fake bill and risk arrest for a pack of cigarettes when he had real cash?

· GF’s surprise at the cops being at his car (in addition to him still being at the scene) also tells me that if his bill was counterfeit, he didn’t know it.

· And why was he given his cigarette purchase at all? If it’s the store policy to scan bills over certain denominations, then the bill should have been scanned before handing GF the pack of cigs. Something is off here.

The bill should have been scanned before making the transaction and then, as he stood behind his bullet proof glass, the cashier should have refused GF his purchase and informed him that the bill was fake and that the police were being called. If GF had been a white guy in a suit and tie, would this have been how the ‘business’ of the phony twenty would have been handled?

Regardless, while inside the convenience store, GF is seen boppin’ around a bit and gently swaying back and forth. Oh! He must be high! I believe the cashier mentioned this to the police on-scene? Later, video footage from the store was used to “back up” Chauvin’s stated belief that GF was on drugs. But Chauvin had no way of knowing this with certainty without having GF tested for drugs.

If GF had been a white guy in a suit and tie, would his ‘odd’ movements in the convenience store been so suspect? Was there music playing in the store at the time? I often rock back and forth and “dance” in place to music playing in public places. Wasn’t GF into music? Wasn’t he a composer of music? Most musicians, whether or not they like a style of music, a song, or an artist, will still appreciate certain nuances of a musical piece; perhaps an instrument or a particular beat -- and you will see them react to it, in public, in a myriad of ways. But I guess the music was all in George Floyd’s head. No one’s going to bother to find out if there was music playing in the store because they’ve already determined that he had drugs in his system, but the whole smearing of GF by police at the scene, assumptions made about him before anything was known, really p*sses me off.

Police decided GF was acting “weird” because of how startled he was when he turned to see police at his window after one of them rapped on it with a nightstick. He also saw a gun aimed at HIS head. And oddly, the cops think they it’s unusual for someone to freak out about that.

GF answered their question about his response. He immediately explained that he’d been shot before, while in the same position; the driver’s side of a car. GF was a big guy. Big guys don’t fit in standard-sized places, including the cabin spaces of vehicles – and especially not the backs of police cars, but I’ll get to that.

I knew of a man who was stopped by a police officer and told to step out of his car. He was a big guy. He had to adjust the seat position to slide it up, toward the steering wheel, so that he could comfortably step out of the car. When driving, his long legs needed that extra room, but keeping the seat back beyond the framework of the car door made it difficult for him to simply open that door and climb out of the car. As the guy reached down to adjust the seat using its side handle, the cop fired a bullet into his head. His black head.

Another man, also a big guy, also black, had a similar thing happen to him. He was stopped by a police offer and told to step out of the car. The driver went to unfasten his seat belt. Bam. I’m sure you’ve heard about men being asked for identification and when they reach into a coat pocket, a side panel of their car, the glove compartment, or the console, BANG!

So before knowing a thing about him, the police rap on his car window with a nightstick AND aim a gun at him. And GF freaks out. Therefore, he must be high, right? What if he’d been a white guy in a suit and tie?

His reaction did not suggest that he was high, but that he was scared. Scared out of his wits. It’s worth repeating that GF immediately explained that he’d once been shot – actually shot -- when in the same position; sitting in the driver’s seat of a car. His autopsy later revealed a circular scar over his left clavicle. The clavicle is the long bone that connects the shoulders. The left side of his clavicle would be a prominent spot, other than his head, that someone standing outside of the car and off to the side of/behind him would hit when shooting a gun. So yeah, believing that GF had been in a position on another occasion where someone drew a gun and shot him (because he perhaps failed to indicate that he was about to release a seat belt or adjust a chair, or just put down his lit cigarette…) makes me question if he suffered from undiagnosed and/or untreated PTSD.

Now, a panic or anxiety attack would be a NORMAL reaction for ANYONE to have if they suddenly turned to see a police officer outside their parked vehicle aiming a gun at their head. A white guy in a suit and tie who reacted that way would, I expect, be considered by police to be reacting to fear of the gun, not acting “weird” and ‘automatically’ under the influence of something. That reaction would be even more expected, heightened, and certainly understandable if the white business man had been shot before and explained this. Trained police officers would consider that he may have PTSD. But not GF. No. It had to be drugs that caused him to react so fearfully.

Let’s add to his response to something else GF was sure to inform the police offers of: that he suffered from claustrophobia. Now THIS was the officers’ opportunity to handle GF properly and respectfully, but instead of doing right by him, they decided he was some junkie who needed to be manhandled and they applied force rather than what they would probably have done if GF were a white guy in a suit and tie.

GF had clearly stated that he’d been shot before.
He’d stated that he was claustrophobic.
To the police, he seemed a little crazy, or weird. And he was black. Must be drugs! It couldn’t possibly be that he HAD been shot before and that he WAS claustrophobic.

If GF were a white guy in a suit and tie and he boarded an airplane, the crew would be trained to recognize the signs of anxiety, panic, and distress associated with both fear of flying and claustrophobia. If the white guy in suit and tie said nothing at all, but was fidgety and acting “weird”, it is likely one of the crew members would speak to him to see if he could even handle the flight. Now I’m thinking that GF would never have boarded a plane to begin with, but just stay with me. We’re talking about a white guy in a suit and tie. Let’s say this guy told the cabin crew that he was claustrophobic before take-off. Depending on how agitated he was, the crew might decide to have him escorted off the airplane. If, after take-off, he started acting “weird” and he then explained that he was claustrophobic and started experiencing intense panic and anxiety, the Captain (pilot) would have every right (and in some cases, a responsibility) to make an emergency landing to get the affected passenger medical help as well as keep other passengers and the crew safe. Now imagine that white guy in a business suit boarding a plane, acting “weird” (scared) and INFORMING a crew member that he 1) was in a plane crash before and 2) he’s claustrophobic. Do you think anyone would try to force him to remain on the plane?

Yet, after being informed BY their subject (GF) that he’d been shot before and is now fearful, and that he’s also claustrophobic, and after seeing him calm when allowed to sit and rest on the sidewalk; not pleading and screaming and putting up any struggle at all – the police tried shoving his big body into a little space, the back of a squad car. Scared of being shot AND the of being placed into a stuffy, closed-off chamber with closed windows offering no fresh air on a warm day, handcuffed and unable to escape an extreme fear, GF goes into full panic/anxiety mode – something police are trained to recognize. They see this in victims who have just been attacked, raped, hit by a car, or had a loved one undergo something horrific. Are you telling me that after all his experience on the force Chauvin could not distinguish a valid fear from a drug-induced delusion???

In GF’s surge of fear, when stress hormones overtake his body, he fights it. He doesn’t fight the cops. He fights being placed in that small, enclosed space. He did not kick anyone. He did not bite anyone. He did not threaten anyone or try to head-butt anyone. All he did was try to prevent cops from locking him up in that little cave they call ‘the backseat of a squad car.’ And in his fight and fear, the big strong man slithered and slid right out the other end. And THAT was when every single police officer should have known he had some kind of mental or emotional problem/issue with claustrophobia.

So I ask you, if their job is to protect and serve, why did these officers not call for some kind of police van/paddy wagon -- or an ambulance at that moment? GF was cuffed. Just sit him back down on the sidewalk and call paramedics. Even if the police don’t believe his claustrophobia claim, if they really believe he’s under the influence of something, then taking him to the hospital for blood testing and possible treatment is warranted. You know… protect and serve?

But they chose to ignore these indications, these signs of distress – the very same behaviors they are trained to recognize. Chauvin just chalked it up to drug use. Maybe he didn’t hear the part about GF being shot before. Maybe he didn’t believe the claustrophobia claim. But he had eyes that worked well enough to see things he DECIDED indicated drug-use and he had ears that heard George Floyd telling him that he could not breath. Chauvin had been given at least one chance prior to that to get GF medical help before the man was ever put on the ground, and ever cry for help and statement GF made about not being able to breathe was another chance. Even his own officers gave him multiple chances. He intentionally ignored them all.

I want to remind you that GF was cuffed BEFORE being pushed into the squad car. The way he was cuffed was not correct, considering his size and shoulder span. That white guy in a business suit, if cuffed at all, would have had the cuffs extended. Did you see the size of GF’s wrist and hands? Cuffing him the way the police did caused his large arms and elbows to jut out uncomfortably. Using one pair of cuffs on a man that most certainly required two pairs linked together for him to be able to move without being in pain or straining himself. I’m not talking so loose or with so much ‘give’ that he’d have enough room to jump-rope through or wrap around a cop’s neck in a choke hold, but enough so that his arms and shoulders aren’t pulled back so tightly, which affects the breathing, by the way…

So they cuff GF in a way that I personally feel is abusive, and then they drag him into a tiny tunnel of the cavity of the back of a squad car. As one would expect from someone with while claustrophobia, GF reacts. This is when the police place him on the ground, face down, his arms still so tightly bound that he looked like dressed poultry. That was hard to watch in itself. Pinned to the ground, face down, chest to the pavement, with police offers climbing on him, one in particular kneeling on him and placing his weight on GF’s neck, back, shoulder, and chest, his claustrophobic panic attack heightens. One of the fears of claustrophobia is inability to breath, and GF cannot breathe. He tells them so. And he fights – not to break away from the officers, but from the death grip; to turn himself so that he can inhale some air. Officer Lane reminded Chauvin of the very protocol that Chauvin trains other offers to follow, suggesting that Chauvin roll GF onto his side. More chances to do right by GF, by a citizen. Except Chauvin is insists, through his action and lack thereof, that GF is basically an out-of-control junkie, a big guy with drug-induced superhuman strength, and therefore, Chauvin s going to show everyone how it’s done.

Motive? Not to kill. To control. Opportunity? Not to kill, but to save a life – and Chauvin ignored ALL opportunities he was given, and he was given so many. So many times he had the opportunity to make a good decision, a sensible one, one that his very police force demanded of him, and he intentionally chose not to.

Lastly, I want to point out the most horrific part of this entire tragic encounter… Chauvin’s restraint and what the trained officer’s eyes could see. Regardless of the fact that he chose to intentionally ignore (and even laugh at) GF’s cries for help and screams that he was unable to breath, Chauvin could see GF’s face and head --- and the skin of it, which turned a dark blue-black from lack of oxygen as compared to his shoulders which were normal in color. Drugs or no drugs, the discoloration in GF’s skin, the “line of demarcation” being at the neck area, clearly shows that GF was getting inadequate to no air and even blood circulation, turning dark and blue-black the same way a gangrenous foot or a frostbitten finger would. And you’re telling me that Chauvin did not notice this? GF was wearing a tank top. The color differences are not only extremely vivid and visible, but any layperson could see how drastic it was. And Chauvin had a front row seat – George Floyd’s neck! We see Chauvin, his knee/shin/whatever body part you wish, pushing his own body weight onto GF’s neck. And as he does this, he IS watching GF and IGNORING the obvious skin darkening ad discoloration that occurred, even after his fellow officers suggest he turn GF on his side, even after they tell Chauvin “He’s out” or “He’s not breathing,” or what-have-you. Nope! Chauvin continues posing like a hunter who just bagged big game on safari, hands in his pockets, proudly in control. It’s remarkable he would CONTINUE to do this KNOWING he was being recorded by bystanders and think that his hands (and knees) would be clean of it. So, now that I think of it, maybe he did have motive… not to kill, but to look like a bigshot. Over twenty bucks.

I would be very interested in Members' thoughts and reactions to this.

Welcome to WS!!!! Great first posts! See you over at today's testimony?