George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[dixiegirl1035]

More background on the CO2/blood gases and why important to draw STAT when someone comes in with having CPR and while getting history.

Testimony resumed Thursday with Dr. Martin Tobin, an expert who specializes in pulmonology and critical care.

Tobin, a Chicago-based physician who is a renowned expert on pulmonology (medical issues involving the lungs and respiratory system), testified that Floyd died of a low level of oxygen.

Tobin said Floyd's "shallow breaths weren't able to carry air through his lungs, down to the essential areas of the lungs that get oxygen into the blood and get rid of carbon dioxide."

Tobin testified Floyd's position was akin to being caught in a vise between the pressure from the officers atop him and the street below, interfering with his ability to expand his left lung. Tobin said the weight of Chauvin's knee on Floyd's neck compressed his airway, also compromising his breathing.

Derek Chauvin Trial Live Updates: Court resumes after testimony on drugs in George Floyd's car

Four factors led to Floyd's low oxygen level, Tobin says:

• his prone position on the street;
• the handcuffs that pulled his arms back;
• a knee on his neck;
• a knee on his back and down his side.

"All of these four forces are ultimately going to result in the low tidal volume, which gives you the shallow breaths" that can't effectively bring oxygen into the lungs, Tobin said.

Live Updates: Trial Over George Floyd's Killing

 

[Sillybilly]

Sorry, not in the flow of current discussion, but I find it interesting that TMZ appears to have edited out a part of their original video where I got the screenshot from last year:

MN - George Floyd, 46, unarmed, killed in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 *arrests* #2

 

[Rhozwen]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Is it correct the first prosecution team — who were removed and will possibly testify for the defense — reviewed the findings from/with Baker and ultimately decided to not follow through with charges? I’m trying to understand why Nelson would have requested their removal from the case.

Judge disqualifies Mike Freeman's office for 'sloppy' work in George Floyd case

"
Eric Nelson, who represents Derek Chauvin, had filed a motion to disqualify Freeman’s entire office from working on the case. He expressed concern that Freeman and three of his attorneys — Deputy County Attorney Andrew LeFevour, Senior County Attorney Amy Sweasy and Assistant County Attorney Patrick Lofton — met with Hennepin County Medical Examiner Andrew Baker in May about the case without a non-attorney present.

That violated state rules for lawyers and turned them into potential witnesses, Nelson argued.

Cahill granted Nelson’s motion in part, disqualifying the four from the case. Other staffers from Freeman’s office would not be banned, the judge said.

Freeman’s office said it followed standards dictated by a Minnesota Supreme Court decision and said the third party at such meetings does not have to be a non-attorney. The statement added that Sweasy and Lofton had asked to leave the case on June 3, meaning they qualified as third parties in the Baker meeting.

Sweasy and Lofton led the state’s first murder conviction against a police officer for the on-duty killing of a civilian. They tried former officer Mohamed Noor in 2019 for the 2017 fatal shooting of Justine Ruszczyk Damond."

IMO, I do not believe they will be witnesses for the defense. I believe Nelson used that argument to have them removed from the case. Taking that last paragraph I quoted into consideration, I presume that was his initial motivation to try to have them removed.

 

[GarAndTeed]

To make it easier to find previous stuff for everyone, each Day of trail, a specific post is made that has:

who testified, what their job is, in what order, the link to the days' YouTube testimony, and the major MSM articles that came out in the next 24 hours describing those testimonies.... in the MN - George Floyd, 46, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 **Media & Timeline - NO DISCUSSION thread

E.g. Day 6 had the doctorLangerfeld who pronounced him deceased is at



And Day 9 with the pulmonologist Tobin is at



@GarAndTeed.. Found it!



*bump* for you as the timestamp is stated for the YouTube testimony you are looking for ??- Trial Day 10 Andrew Baker

THANK YOU @dixiegirl1035 ! I really appreciate your help!

 

[JerseyGirl]

The trial thread for today has been set up. This thread will close shortly:

MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #14 - Chauvin Trial Day 11

@Niner

 

[Simply Southern]

I understand what was said, I listed very attentively as it transpired. I don’t understand how GF was “brought back to life” and then “died again”. Or that he was alive after he made it to the hospital. That’s basically what the ME testified to. How could this be? For me, without further explanation, it opens up several possibilities. He survived the restraint and succumbed to something else, for example. I’m just left with so many questions.

I'm hoping we hear what transpired in the ambulance ride to tbe hospital and the ER records.

I'm concerned it was 8 minutes before oxygen was administered. Most EMTs apply immediately, even if bagging the patient. Didn't this ambulance pull over 2 blocks from the scene? What ever for?
Moo....

 

[GarAndTeed]

Question for anyone with medical knowledge: I checked out Dr. Andrew Baker; interestingly, he went to medical school and became a pathologist here in Iowa City. From what I can discern, he did a one year fellowship in forensic pathology, but is not a Forensic Pathologist. Dr. Lindsay Thomas, his mentor, is a board certified forensic pathologist. So I'm wondering why GF's autopsy wasn't performed by a forensic pathologist, since this was (at the time) likely to be a court case. I'm bringing this up after watching part of Dr. Baker's testimony in which he said he couldn't testify as to the legal criteria for homicide (paraphrased). Maybe I'm off in my interpretations here- does anyone have any feedback?

 

[Simply Southern]

Nelson's "stumbles" actually make me like him and gives his cross examinations a feeling of a regular guy having a conversation with the witness.

I'm not sure if the entire jury feels the same but he only needs to have one on his side. JMO

Reminds me of Columbo, in the old detective show.
Moo

 

[GarAndTeed]

More background on the CO2/blood gases and why important to draw STAT when someone comes in with having CPR and while getting history.

Testimony resumed Thursday with Dr. Martin Tobin, an expert who specializes in pulmonology and critical care.

Tobin, a Chicago-based physician who is a renowned expert on pulmonology (medical issues involving the lungs and respiratory system), testified that Floyd died of a low level of oxygen.

Tobin said Floyd's "shallow breaths weren't able to carry air through his lungs, down to the essential areas of the lungs that get oxygen into the blood and get rid of carbon dioxide."

Tobin testified Floyd's position was akin to being caught in a vise between the pressure from the officers atop him and the street below, interfering with his ability to expand his left lung. Tobin said the weight of Chauvin's knee on Floyd's neck compressed his airway, also compromising his breathing.

Derek Chauvin Trial Live Updates: Court resumes after testimony on drugs in George Floyd's car

Four factors led to Floyd's low oxygen level, Tobin says:

• his prone position on the street;
• the handcuffs that pulled his arms back;
• a knee on his neck;
• a knee on his back and down his side.

"All of these four forces are ultimately going to result in the low tidal volume, which gives you the shallow breaths" that can't effectively bring oxygen into the lungs, Tobin said.

Live Updates: Trial Over George Floyd's Killing

Ok, I watched Dr. Tobin's testimony (and he ROCKED!); there was so much to try to absorb...I do remember him discussing blood gases, because I thought if I'd had him instructing me about them I would've felt a lot more confident calibrating the machine and in the results. Anyway, sorry for the tangent...thanks, @dixiegirl1035 ! Now it makes perfect sense to me!

 

[SouthAussie]

Question for anyone with medical knowledge: I checked out Dr. Andrew Baker; interestingly, he went to medical school and became a pathologist here in Iowa City. From what I can discern, he did a one year fellowship in forensic pathology, but is not a Forensic Pathologist. Dr. Lindsay Thomas, his mentor, is a board certified forensic pathologist. So I'm wondering why GF's autopsy wasn't performed by a forensic pathologist, since this was (at the time) likely to be a court case. I'm bringing this up after watching part of Dr. Baker's testimony in which he said he couldn't testify as to the legal criteria for homicide (paraphrased). Maybe I'm off in my interpretations here- does anyone have any feedback?

Dr Andrew Baker has been the Chief Medical Examiner for Hennepin County since 2004. That gives him 17 years of experience in this position.
It is not just what you learn in school ... life's education is so much greater.
As well, we don't know what other education he has had along the way. Workshops, courses, papers, seminars, other related learning and keeping up-to-date.

Drugs and Heart Disease Were ‘Not Direct Causes’ of Floyd’s Death, Medical Examiner Says

 

[GarAndTeed]

I'm hoping we hear what transpired in the ambulance ride to tbe hospital and the ER records.

I'm concerned it was 8 minutes before oxygen was administered. Most EMTs apply immediately, even if bagging the patient. Didn't this ambulance pull over 2 blocks from the scene? What ever for?
Moo....

You're right- I'm an EMT, and there's no reason for not starting to bag him immediately- you might have to skip one breath while loading him (but you really shouldn't have to). I want to hear more about this, as well.

 

[GarAndTeed]

Dr Andrew Baker has been the Chief Medical Examiner for Hennepin County since 2004. That gives him 17 years of experience in this position.
It is not just what you learn in school ... life's education is so much greater.
As well, we don't know what other education he has had along the way. Workshops, courses, papers, seminars, other related learning and keeping up-to-date.

Drugs and Heart Disease Were ‘Not Direct Causes’ of Floyd’s Death, Medical Examiner Says

You're correct in that he's certainly experienced. I'll do some Googling on terminology and see if I can be more clear- or if I'm totally off base on this subject! Thanks for giving me the initiative to clarify this stuff to myself!
Edited to add: I need to go back and watch the beginning of his testimony; that's probably the most logical way to figure it out. I apologize for not being familiar with his testimony- I only watched a short bit. Sorry for the confusion!

 

[bluebird69]

Reminds me of Columbo, I'm the old detective show.
Moo

Agree, I've been saying that too.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I'm hoping we hear what transpired in the ambulance ride to tbe hospital and the ER records.

I'm concerned it was 8 minutes before oxygen was administered. Most EMTs apply immediately, even if bagging the patient. Didn't this ambulance pull over 2 blocks from the scene? What ever for?
Moo....

You're right- I'm an EMT, and there's no reason for not starting to bag him immediately- you might have to skip one breath while loading him (but you really shouldn't have to). I want to hear more about this, as well.

@GarAndTeed -- At that time, no one had said that he was without breathing for so long, that Chauvins knee and positional asphyxiation had happened etc etc.. The EMS at that time thought the best scenario.. that chest compressions first is ALWAYS the way to go which the did immediately while setting up after the "load and go" to do such" as usually they are "taking over" chest compression when they arrive and just CONTINUE them. (SOP MOO)

Perhaps they were as confused as we ALLLLL are why they felt no pulse, no breathing.. and LE was just on his body without doing anything. They perhaps thought... JEEZ CR*P this guy is dead.. we don't want to start one chest compression in the street.. it's time to load and Gooooooooooooo.

Have you seen Lane's body camera? If you watch the videos that were shown in court, you will see that they did ASAP as well as they could to hook him up and do CPR machine which only could be done in the ambulance. Do you need a link to review and have seen such IN the ambulance of what Lane did to hook him up to the machine that was in the ambulance?

Yes, they pulled over but that did not delayed minimally what Lane was doing to help. (and PROVES they knew what to do/how to do it as Lane did without direction MOO).

They pulled over for more help to catch up from the fire EMS... as chest compressions MOO are now taught they can and should be first prior to bagging.

 

[SouthAussie]

You're correct in that he's certainly experienced. I'll do some Googling on terminology and see if I can be more clear- or if I'm totally off base on this subject! Thanks for giving me the initiative to clarify this stuff to myself!

I see what you are saying now ... a Forensic Pathologist (at least in Australia) needs to have an understanding of Homicide Law when they transition to Fellowship, but not before. Prior to that it is up to their Supervisor to ensure all that needs to be examined is examined. All they have to know prior to Fellowship is Chain of Custody requirements (and their job, of course).

https://www.rcpa.edu.au/getattachme...1c4b/Forensic-Pathology-Trainee-Handbook.aspx

Still, we don't know what Dr Baker has done (education-wise) toward that level of understanding. He is Chief Medical Examiner, and has been for a long time. I guess looking at the job description for CME might assist you in your endeavour.

 

[MsBetsy]

I'm hoping we hear what transpired in the ambulance ride to tbe hospital and the ER records.

I'm concerned it was 8 minutes before oxygen was administered. Most EMTs apply immediately, even if bagging the patient. Didn't this ambulance pull over 2 blocks from the scene? What ever for?
Moo....

Wouldn't the oxygen have been more useful if administered while he was being restrained, or while he was still breathing shallowly, to be affective? Or ar least rescue breaths to start breathing? Does oxygen work if a patient hasn't been breathing for that long?

 

[Simply Southern]

@GarAndTeed -- At that time, no one had said that he was without breathing for so long, that Chauvins knee and positional asphyxiation had happened etc etc.. The EMS at that time thought the best scenario.. that chest compressions first is ALWAYS the way to go which the did immediately while setting up after the "load and go" to do such" (SOP MOO)


If you watch the videos that were shown in court, you will see that they did ASAP as well as they could to hook him up and do CPR machine which only could be done in the ambulance. Do you need a link to review and have seen such IN the ambulance of what Lane did to hook him up to the machine that was in the ambulance?

Yes, they pulled over but that did not delay what Lane was doing to help. They pulled over for more help to catch up from the fire EMS.

I need to watch the video. I admit I'm behind, missed 2 days with family stuff.

I was going by the testimony...it was 8 minutes before oxygen was applied. Even with only one EMT doing CPR a mask is slapped on at a high flow.

Off to watch videos

 

[GarAndTeed]

@GarAndTeed -- At that time, no one had said that he was without breathing for so long, that Chauvins knee and positional asphyxiation had happened etc etc.. The EMS at that time thought the best scenario.. that chest compressions first is ALWAYS the way to go which the did immediately while setting up after the "load and go" to do such" (SOP MOO)

Have you seen Lane's body camera? If you watch the videos that were shown in court, you will see that they did ASAP as well as they could to hook him up and do CPR machine which only could be done in the ambulance. Do you need a link to review and have seen such IN the ambulance of what Lane did to hook him up to the machine that was in the ambulance?

Yes, they pulled over but that did not delay what Lane was doing to help. They pulled over for more help to catch up from the fire EMS.

@dixiegirl1035 you're my savior! Yes, a link would be great- I haven't been able to watch a lot of the trial. I'd love to see that footage-thanks SO much!

 

[SouthAussie]

I need to watch the video. I admit I'm behind, missed 2 days with family stuff.

I was going by the testimony...it was 8 minutes before oxygen was applied. Even with only one EMT doing CPR a mask is slapped on at a high flow.

Off to watch videos

Might have been helpful if the police officers had commenced CPR when they couldn't find a pulse.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

@dixiegirl1035 you're my savior! Yes, a link would be great- I haven't been able to watch a lot of the trial. I'd love to see that footage-thanks SO much!

Lemme check to see if I can find in the media thread... it's his body cam near the end and I'll do an ETA with timestamp for you.

ETA: Found in the media thread using the search term "lane"

Has complete bodycam videos of Lane and his partner

Start at 51:40 when ambo does the load and go, Lane gets in.. and we see the efforts in the ambulance.... which I believe is what you are asking for.

WARNING - VERY UPSETTING AND GRAPHIC - ROLL AND SCROLL IF YOU DON'T WANT TO VIEW

[/QUOTE]