George Zimmerman /Trayvon Martin General Discussion #12 Wed July 10

[defense101]

Also....Zimmerman's first reaction was NOT to grab his gun and shoot....it was to cry for help.

And Trayvon even after people came out from their homes and shouted at them ....continued the assault.....AND after quite a few punches doing damage.

Speaks volumes to me.

of course that is your opinion there is nothing definitive in evidence that says that happened other than GZ,s own recollection of what happened and if fact there was only one person not peoples who said they thought GZ was on the bottom who said that. IMO

 

[Leilei]

I find this very hard to believe. Can you please post a link to the gym's ad with GZ?

It's in Dibsy's siggy, but I'll link it for you:

http://www.kogym.com/zimmerman.htm

IMO

 

[Zoe Bogart]

Yes he is. He just shredded the prosecution's cross with his performance on that doll. I bet Prosecutors are sure wishing they had told him NO he couldn't use it now. LOL

All IMOO

Like, um, saying, "Give me back my doll!" ??? :floorlaugh:


I was watching O'Mara in awe, then I noticed the prosecutor who had just gone round and round with the witness. His face looked absolutely ill. I think he realized the defense knows how to wrestle with dolls. :wink:

IMO, of course.

I'm glad they decided to give us a floor-angle camera. The other day we missed a lot of the floor action because the camera was aimed too high.

 

[Donnareit]

Yes. It's unfortunate that Martin died but I do believe Zimmerman is also a victim. I can't imagine how he must feel now that there is a possibility that he could spend 30 years or even more than that. It's a nightmare.

I agree GZ is a victim, but IMO probably not the way you mean. I think (so my opinion only) that GZ came into that dark night with a cloak of victimhood pervading his thoughts. I hear it in the frustration in his voice during the 911 call.
If he had stopped to think about it, "these as***oles" do not ALWAYS get away. At least one of the burglars had been arrested on the testimony of a construction crew. Those guys were given high praise; so perhaps GZ (subconsciously) thought if he could catch one it would allievate some of his victimhood (or feelings of inferiority).
He wasn't very good at MMA (according to the testimony of his trainer), his wife didn't feel protected in their neighborhood (according to his interview), and he bought and practised with a gun that he expected he would need to use on somebody (according to his BFF).
GZ was sold the same bill of goods that we all are; that being that might makes right. I can easily see ADHD "Georgie" charging out of his car and into this fight. However, like Don Quixote, he soon discovered he was jousting with a windmill capable of doing him great harm. Did he fear for his life at that point? Undoubtedly. Was he justified in shooting TM? I do not think so.
Merely putting ourselves in harms way, thinking we are more capable than LE, and wanting others to see us as their champions is not a good enough reason to shoot and kill a stranger in our midst, no matter how suspicious we become for whatever schema we bring to the situation.
:moo:

 

[PrairieWind]

The prosecution does not seem to have a theory of the case. This has become very evident to me over the past couple of days when they have brought up new scenarios on every cross exam.

That is no way to overcome reasonable doubt. IMO.

Lauraoh, i think this is a good observation. The state has done a poor job of explaining what it is that they think did happen. Its their burden to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. Not to just say, "GZ's version is wrong, therefore find him guilty." The jury will go to the jury room with instructions listing the elements of the crimes charged. They must find beyond a reasonable doubt that the state has proved each of those elements. But without a good theory of their own as to how this played out, in my opinion I don't see how a jury will be able to do that. Certainly not on 2nd degree murder.

 

[Lovelymountains]

A number of people on this forum discuss having witnessed fights, shootings, all kinds of violent things. Am I the only one who has never witnessed such violence? I live in a small town now, but I haven't always. I once lived in Washington DC and Philadelphia. Even there I never witnessed this kind of violence. I grant you it was many years ago, but still---never. I have never been abused, attacked, hit my head on the ground or floor or sidewalk. I once broke my arm but that was playing tennis and I fell.I've never broken the law and never even received a speeding ticket. I haven't smoked marijuana or used other illegal drugs. And my friends and family are more or less the same, except one of my nieces had a terrible automobile accident and was badly injured, but she recovered. No one in my family has ever been kidnapped or murdered.

So all of this is leading up to this question: Is it possible that I believe GZ is guilty because I have never seen a thing like this? I do believe GZ is not telling the truth about his encounter with TM and I believe TM unjustly lost his life. But maybe we bring our own life experiences into such circumstances and we are only able to see it from that point of view? Just wondering.

 

[Zuri]

Would someone plz clarify for me, what position GZ was in to obtain the angle of the GSW. I know Mr. Root was saying angles, but I failed to understand what he was saying. TIA

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

of course that is your opinion there is nothing definitive in evidence that says that happened other than GZ,s own recollection of what happened and if fact there was only one person not peoples who said they thought GZ was on the bottom who said that. IMO

No. That is facts in evidence and testimony. TM had grass stains on his knees. How did he get them? Beating GZ down into the ground. why? BEcause we have the injuries to GZ's head, The witness testimony and GZ account that all fit.

IT has to fit and it does.

 

[Lovelymountains]

I don't know why people keep referring to this as a fight...
It wasn't two guys calling each other out...
It wasn't two drunks at a bar getting into it...

This was an assault by TM...All the evidence points to GZ story being true...
GZ did nothing wrong...

This is why you never get into it with a complete stranger...
You end up screwing with the wrong guy...

IMO...

From my point of view and IMO only, TM was assaulted by GZ and GZ made up a convenient tale about being assaulted.

 

[DIBSY]

The point is that he picked a fight here and it cost him his life. It fits with the evidence as per the state.[/

He didn't and it doesn't.

States witness never said "went up to", "went back", went after"
States witness said BY his Dad's house, not AT, or IN, or ON the porch.
States witness HEARD "why are you following me"
You believe nothing else States witness says that doesn't support GZ testimony.

AFTER GZ "trailed" (defense witness testified GZ said he was "trailing" the "suspect") TM to BY TM's Dad's house.

An area he had no business being in after dark, if TM didn't...
he wasn't NW, or LE, or the security guard.

GZ THOUGHT he was...but can't and didn't follow any procedure normally followed by NW or LE

Trailed is my new favorite word...

Well said, Your Honour!! :rockon:
I am sooo glad that whacky Cartoon /Animation was disbarred As Evidence by the Judge!! Can only be used for demo...AND I think in that case, the State shall show it isn't anatomically correct, the story is one-sided, the " eye" witness was there only a few seconds..AND most important of all, TBM was NOT a leftie!! A total ruse by the defense.

 

[jane the dood]

What follows is My. Opinion. Only. I am not a lawyer/doctor/police officer/chemist, just a retiree who gets her local news out of Orlando, and has been following this case since day one.

I have to admit Mark O'Mara is "outlawyering" the state by a country mile. It takes real skill to turn a prosecution witness around to suit the defense! This guy is no Baez, that's for sure. He's good. Very, very good.

That said....

There are certain issues that the defense can spin all it wants but it doesn't change the facts:

1) Trayvon Martin was walking home from the 7-11 with his candy and his fruit drink, minding his own business and not breaking any laws.

2) George Zimmerman - armed with a loaded gun and with a background in martial arts - took it upon himself (NOT at the suggestion of law enforcement) to follow Martin, and then get out of his car and confront the teenager.

3) These facts make Zimmerman the aggressor.

Zimmerman claims Martin fought him and caused him injury; he was in fear for his life and so he shot Martin in self defense. He didn't choose to disable Martin by kicking him in the gonads or even wound him and then call 911; he shot the teen in the heart. The only reason you would aim for the heart is to kill someone dead on the spot.

If that is Zimmerman screaming for help on that tape, it certainly belies his "tough guy" attitude. Fighting an unarmed skinny teenager and you have a weapon and martial arts training and your only alternative is shoot-to-kill? Wow.

I don't understand how you can be the instigator in this sort of situation and then claim you are the victim. If anyone was Standing Their Ground that night, it was Trayvon Martin. But we only have Zimmerman's word on that since Trayvon Martin is, y'know, DEAD.

Whoever "wins" in this case, there are no real winners. Some of us will be satisfied with the verdict and some won't. Them's the breaks.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

From my point of view and IMO only, TM was assaulted by GZ and GZ made up a convenient tale about being assaulted.

There are no FACTS that prove that. According to STATES witnesses TM confronts GZ not the other way around. Their own case is pulled apart by state testimony.

 

[sacrablue]

Great job, A real life display in front of jury. Huge moment for the jury to see that GZ's story is nonsense. IMO

 

[Overuled]

Unless they are in the same room they cannot prove that TM sent those texts.IMO

I have to differ with you- The judge last night stated that if there was evidence within the text message where the receiver of tm messages mentioned or refered to tm with his name then it could be proved.

Something like-- hey Trey whats up man- or something to that effect, BUT I believe the defense could possibly find some case law that would help change the judges mind. imo

 

[Snoods]

We've had a rash of break-ins in my neighborhood lately and ANYONE walking around with a hood over their head in the pouring rain and "looking suspicious on drugs or something" would definitely raise concern. The color of the person's skin wouldn't factor in at all - the suspicious behavior would. It's not about ill will. It's about being on the alert from further break-ins. Not sure what your point is in your statement?

I so agree with this. It was raining, dark and he had a hoodie up over his head. I doubt at first glance he could even tell his race. IMO

 

[UdbCrzy2]

I'm still puzzled on why the fight began at the T, but TM body ended up down on the lawn. My husband and I are watching the trial together and he gave me his opinion that being: That TM punched GZ at the T and fell, GZ took off running and TM went after him and GZ shot him. He also thinks GZ is guilty of murder 2 as I do. What is legal about going out and picking a fight with someone and shooting them then claiming self-defense? That is what we are thinking at my house today.

I want to add that the punching by TM was provoked by GZ. We have witnesses hearing loud voices. TM had nothing else to do, but protect himself the best way he could. IMO

 

[katiewonders]

You are right IMO opinion TM is the victim here without GZ actions that day he would have made it home to watch the basketball game with his dad and his skittles and watermelon ice tea.

I totally agree with you, if only that poor child had not punched GZ in the nose, ending up on the ground on top of him, and bashing his head on the concrete, making GZ fear for his life and defend that life...none of this would have happened.

On the stand, TM's mom couldn't bring herself to admit that TM's actions led to his demise that night, but she knew her son. She knew he liked to fight, and deep down, I would imagine she wishes he hadn't started that fight that night. I would and you would.

It's tragic but this was done in self-defense. Let's you and I and everyone here join in the public outrage of shootings happening in our cities every night, cutting down young people (my friend lost 2 sons) including children-in-the-crossfire. Let's work together to stop the senseless gun violence happening too frequently.

But let's stop pretending GZ outright killed this poor innocent child. IMO MOO

 

[Lovelymountains]

Lauraoh, i think this is a good observation. The state has done a poor job of explaining what it is that they think did happen. Its their burden to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. Not to just say, "GZ's version is wrong, therefore find him guilty." The jury will go to the jury room with instructions listing the elements of the crimes charged. They must find beyond a reasonable doubt that the state has proved each of those elements. But without a good theory of their own as to how this played out, in my opinion I don't see how a jury will be able to do that. Certainly not on 2nd degree murder.

I agree. I have a theory of the case and it's a puzzle to me why the State can't seem to find one and stick to it. It's all helter-skelter. I believe GZ to be guilty, but we all know much more about him and the case than the jury knows and they will, IMO likely find him not guilty. If I only knew what they know, I probably would, too. IMO

 

[cityslick]

Yes. This puts to rest all the GZ was a big bully with a gun theory. If that were the case, TM would have never gotten him on the ground.

And we know from state witness testimony he did.

I think if anything it shows that GZ waited until he really felt he had no other choice.

In almost any other trial, people all the time say 'look at what the defendant says and acts immedietely after the incident'. Lets apply that here. The first words out of his mouth was that he shot someone. He put his hands up. He told the first person that he came to that he was defending himself. He hoped there was someone or a video that captured what happened. When told there may be a video he said 'Thank God!'.

All of these things sound like a person that was desperate to tell what happened because he probably recognized how things look at first glance, he had a gun and now someone is dead. I don't think GZ ever meant for things to go down the way he did. Do I think he made bad decisions (leaving the car), yes. But IMO that's was he's guilty of, bad decision. Not murder.

All IMO.

 

[Zuri]

A number of people on this forum discuss having witnessed fights, shootings, all kinds of violent things. Am I the only one who has never witnessed such violence? I live in a small town now, but I haven't always. I once lived in Washington DC and Philadelphia. Even there I never witnessed this kind of violence. I grant you it was many years ago, but still---never. I have never been abused, attacked, hit my head on the ground or floor or sidewalk. I once broke my arm but that was playing tennis and I fell.I've never broken the law and never even received a speeding ticket. I haven't smoked marijuana or used other illegal drugs. And my friends and family are more or less the same, except one of my nieces had a terrible automobile accident and was badly injured, but she recovered. No one in my family has ever been kidnapped or murdered.

So all of this is leading up to this question: Is it possible that I believe GZ is guilty because I have never seen a thing like this? I do believe GZ is not telling the truth about his encounter with TM and I believe TM unjustly lost his life. But maybe we bring our own life experiences into such circumstances and we are only able to see it from that point of view? Just wondering.

Life experiences do play a part in how we form our opinions. You are so blessed to have never experienced true tragedy. I hope you never have to. Sometimes life throws you curve balls despite how you try to live your life. Believe me, as a homicide survivor, I wish I was in your shoes. :seeya: