George Zimmerman /Trayvon Martin General Discussion #14 Friday July 12

[ScarlettScarpetta]

He might well have believed that he was, or very close to it. I have often wondered if he was not searching for his house when they met.

Not in evidence. he knew where he lived and he said AT.. Not I can not find where I am...

 

[Jane Jetson]

Because his age is IRRELEVANT.

HE was not a child he was nearly a man by 11 months. he was 6 ft in sneakers.

HE was not a boy.

14-15-16-17-commit violent crimes everyday.. Their age does not usually matter much when they are charged.

ITA; to say that Mr. Martin is innocent because he's 17 is disingenuous, imo, at the very least.

I wonder what the crime statistics look like for males between, say, 15 and 19? Bet they're pretty hefty!

To say one is a teen is not to say they can't viciously attack another human being, in my opinion.

 

[MeeBee]

This point was made last night on AC360. Because skittles and fruit punch is more associated with kids, it makes TM seem more innocent, more boyish or childish. That's why the state keeps harping on it. If he was walking out with a newspaper or a can of RAID, you wouldn't hear about it as much.

IYO though, right?

IMO the reason they keep bringing it up is to show that Trayvon wasn't armed with anything that night, other than his fists not because it makes him seem boyish or childish. In the beginning it was to show that and to show that GZ's assumption that Trayvon was armed was incorrect. I never got the inkling it was to paint him as innocent and young.

IMO

 

[Beyond Belief]

It started already, at 6thirty this morning car with 4 guys gunned down a guy on a bicycle just blocks from here. So...now what? imo
that sort of thing never happens out here in this country setting. imo

 

[lisasalinger]

I didn't see the whole defense closing. Did they mention or stress the "cracker" comment?

MOM mentioned it but gave TM a pass basically saying he was probably just speaking like young people do (paraphrasing). He was kind about it.

I know there is some opinion out there that TM has been treated terribly (like a ) in court, but I really didn't see that at all. I thought the defense was very considerate to the family and TM, in comparison to what I've seen in other cases. In court, nobody has called TM names, nobody has insinuated he was a gang member or anything unsavory. They are just simply addressing the fact that he fought GZ that night.

The reality is, TM did fight GZ (I say this based on evidence), so you have to discuss that somehow. MOM had a right to use props and photos to explain the size of the two people fighting. I personally didn't find it tacky. He is visually trying to help the jurors understand what that fight looked like.

IMO

 

[PaperDoll]

TM called him a racial slur. GZ is not even white. If that's 'simply talking', then I don't know what to say.

TM was talking privately to his friend when he made those slurs, GZ was on a recording to NE reporting a suspicious suspect that wasn't doing anything wrong except in GZ's own mind. GZ from the get go started all this, not TM. TM wasn't reporting a suspect to any law enforcement, he was simply talking to his own personal friend and people can call anyone a racial slur in a private conversation, IMO. Hope this makes sense :blushing:

 

[sorrell skye]

had to jump back in and remind those who complained about the prosecution's asking jurors to use common sense.... MOM ALSO asked them to use their common sense!!!!!

OOPS!

MOO

IMO, the big difference being: Mr. O'Mara didn't ask the jury to "ignore the evidence".

Welcome to The Great Land of Oz. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Ignore the evidence (or lack of).

The emperor has no clothes. IOW: the State has not proven beyond any & all reasonable doubt that GZ committed 2nd degree murder, or even manslaughter.

MOO

 

[Babs S]

And we have minor children commit rape, robbery, murder etc. everyday in this country.

JMO

So True. I could have never ever been on this jury. Once when I was trying to get heathier and taking daily hikes and walks, (15 years ago) I was accosted by a teen boy on a walking path in the middle of the day because I had no watch to give him the time. It affected me so much that I hate to go anywhere alone, and never at night, all because my path came in contact with an angry, angry young man. ugh. I can almost see how this played out in Florida.

 

[rose222]

You know what that can tells me and those skittles? That TM had the upper hand from the beginning. GZ never got a hand on him. No ripped shirt, No skittles spilled out, No can dented or even out of the pouch.

That to me says that TM went after GZ and GZ never had a chance to defend himself he was overpowered from the beginning..

OMO

Good point.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Why are we even arguing about TM looking his age when GZ himself STATED in his 911 call that he believed TM was in his late teens? So clearly TM looked black and appeared to be a teenager to GZ that night.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/07/10/is-trayvon-martin-a-victim-of-youth-profiling.html

this is true. ^^^

I only spoke to it because peeps were claiming it was theatrical to refer to TM as a child in court. But was a child. Legally. And they are in a courtroom,see. With lotsa legal junk and all. :floorlaugh:

 

[Moonie]

I didn't see the whole defense closing. Did they mention or stress the "cracker" comment?

Yeah, MOM said it wasn't a big deal because TM was 17 and 17 year olds are allowed to say whatever they want. MOM said he didn't care what TM said. MOM also said he did not care that RJ initially said she was 16 instead of 18. He said it doesn't matter.

 

[GetToTheTruthNow]

In my opinion Zimmerman was acting in self-defense:

ZIMMERMAN/MARTIN Evidence:
1. Rash of 8- burglaries in area in 14-months.
2. Zimmerman forms Neighborhood Watch.
3. Three weeks prior to Martin incident, Zimmerman stops Burglary in progress.
4. Previously, Zimmerman goes to aid of young mother whose apartment was broken into by two black teenagers and she defends herself with rusty scissors until police show up. He also puts lock on her sliding door, and offers emotional support from his wife he she wants to stay with him during the day.
5. Trayvon walking home with Arizona drink and skittles with THC in bloodstream equivalent to one joint in the previous 3-8 hours. (Somewhat low amount).
6. Travyon has been suspended from school and has damaged property with graffiti,had a burglary kit of a screw driver, suspected of stolen jewelry, and an a ‘empty’ marijuana bag. Apparently text messages saying TM wanted to get a gun, that he bragged about getting the upper hand in a previous fight by breaking someone’s nose, flashing gang signs and flipping people off, and others sending him messages asking how to learn how to fight are not admitted.
7. Trayvon stands on Frank Taaffe’s property.
8. 3-weeks earlier Zimmerman stopped a burglary in progress on Frank Taaffe’s property.
9. Zimmerman feels he matches description of 8-previous break-in's.
10. Zimmerman calls Non-emergency. (If Zimmerman expected a fight or a problem, why not call 911? Also, who calls the cops to the spot of a shooting before it happens?)
11. Zimmerman needed TWO radio transmissions to confirm he was black, the first one was “He LOOKS black”, the 2nd one was “Yep, he’s a black male.” Which eliminates profiling. Zimmerman calls cops, and tries to keep an eye on Martin and gives a full description to dispatch and what he was doing.
12. “Dispatcher: "Location?" Zimmerman: "He's near the clubhouse right now. Now he's coming towards me. He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male-late teens. Something's wrong with him. Yep. He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Send officers over here." (This shows Zimmerman’s fear).
13. Martin says to girlfriend, “A creepy *advertiser censored* cracker is following me.” He also calls Zimmerman a “******.”
14. Martins girlfriend says to run, Martin says, “I’m not going to run, I’m going to walk.”
15. Martin heads back to Zimmerman sitting in car with his hands in his waistband, checks to see who it is, circles the car, pulls up his hoodie to apparently hide his face and starts running.
16. Zimmerman: “These *******s always get away.” (Notice he did not use the “N” word)
17. Zimmerman says, “****, he’s running.” To Dispatch.
18. Dispatch says, “Which way did he run?”
19. Martin cuts through buildings and onto dog path.
20. GZ gets out of car and heads out on foot onto T-Intersection to see where he ran to tell the police.
21. Dispatch says, “Are you following him?”
22. Zimmerman says “Yes.”
23. Dispatch says—“We don't need you to do that.”
24. Zimmerman responds “Okay”, walks a few feet farther to check for an address and walks back toward his car, still on the T-intersection.
25. Rachel Jentel says Martin got to his ‘daddy’s fiancés house’.
26. Witness Selene S. says she heard running ‘left to right’ and is on the same side of the dog path as Trayvon’s dad---which means Trayvon had to go back running to the T-intersection to confront Zimmerman.
27. Trayvon jumps out from the concrete dog path from the side toward GZ and says, “Why are you following me?”
28. GZ says, "Are you from around here?" (according to Martins GF)
29. Martin says, “You got a problem with me?”
30. GZ says, “I don’t have a problem with you.”
31. Martin says, “You do now.”
32. Martin strikes Zimmerman in the face. They scuffle standing up and it moves down
the dog path pavement away from T-intersection.
33. Martin decks Zimmerman with a hit to the face, and is now straddling Zimmerman.
34. Zimmerman’s head is on the cement and his body is on the grass.
35. Martin is throwing punches MMA-style according to witness John Good.
36. Good tells them to stop or he was going to call 911. Martin never turns around
to acknowledge Good.
37. Martin is pounding Zimmerman’s head into the pavement. GZ is still on his back.
38. Zimmerman is yelling, Martin is telling him to ‘shut the **** up’ and trying to cover his mouth.
39. Martin lands a shot to the face and breaks Zimmerman’s nose.
40. Zimmerman is trying to slide his head off the cement and wiggle or push Martin off.
41. Note—Researching broken noses—panic sets in. Broken noses not only cause difficulty in breathing, but also causes confusion, brief loss of consciousness.
42. Martin reaches for gun. (Note—Touch DNA is a myth, especially in the rain).
43. GZ shoots Martin in the chest with an angle from left to right.
44. Martin says, “You got me.” And rolls off and falls on his stomach.
45. Zimmerman straddles Martin’s back thinking he was still going to fight back and spread his arms. (This is when some of the confused witnesses saw GZ on top).
46. Martin lives 1-3 minutes and in a reflexive move draws his hands into his chest.
47. Martin’s hands are cleaned at scene to attempt to finger print, washing away, along with rain, DNA.
48. Zimmerman is cleaned up by Paramedics at scene.
49. Zimmerman clearly has acted in self-defense with no probable cause.
50. Zimmerman was interested in protecting his community.
51. Following does not mean the aggressor in a physical confrontation.
52. Zimmerman is protected by the “Stand your ground” law. (Though not used)
53. Martin struck the first reasonable blow.
54. Under Florida law, reasonable fear equals immunity for Zimmerman.
55. Zimmerman passed two voice analyzer stress tests.
56. Witnesses and injuries and evidence are consistent with Zimmerman’s version.

 

[Zoe Bogart]

Just curious, how long did it take the CA jury? It's been so long that I have forgotten.

I don't recall the exact times, but the jury got the case in the afternoon of July 4th. They announced they had a verdict just before noon their time and convened in the courtroom around 1pm on July 5th.

They were dressed up more so than usual on the morning of the 5th when they arrived in the jury room for "deliberations" and we knew something was going to happen that day.

My speculation, it must have taken them a whole two hours or less and the rest of the time they worked on their responses to the many charges she had. NOT ONCE did they request to examine the evidence again. NOT ONCE.

 

[Mahouston69]

NO. The state did. They put it on. The defense doesn't need to add evidence when the STATE already put it out there.

Ok. Has the defense ever claimed or agreed with your interpretation of RJ's words?
In closing, I believe he said he never did but lay in wait?

Because... He should have not walked by sprinted home from 711?

Just trying to ascertain the facts as the defense has presented them.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Right. Here's a case where an 11 year old was (at the time of the article) charged as an adult.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/25/youngest-american-life-without-parole/

"Pennsylvania’s laws on juvenile trials are among the least accommodating in the country, with juvenile suspects in homicide cases automatically tried as adults, unless a judge decides otherwise."

Trayvon Martin is not on trial. He is a victim. MOO (but also fact)

 

[qwerty2013]

No, he killed someone. He pulled the trigger. That is a fact that both sides agree to. It is an action. It is not a crime. The crime is either Second Degree Murder or Manslaughter. The state must prove those crimes. There is more needed.

The defense has to put forth a reasonable argument for self defense. They did that in this case. The defendants clear injuries and the witness describing the "ground and pound" are sufficient. And the problem for the prosecution is that neither of those pieces of evidence can be touched via claims of Zimmerman lying. That's huge.

So the prosecution must prove a crime. They must present evidence that he deliberately and willfully sought to kill the young man, or that the death resulted from a grossly negligent or criminal act. A negligent act is not the same as bad judgement. Following the kid is bad judgement but not a criminally negligent act. Getting out of the car is bad judgement. Simply having the temerity to carry a weapon in a high crime area is not a crime. The state has a certain required burden. I am not sure they have met it hear. Zimmerman's acts of bad judgement may and most likely will be fodder for a civil lawsuit, but are not elements f criminal wrongdoing.

JG changed his testimony to "up and down arm motions", and no, it was NOT at all clear that GZ's very minor injuries were caused by TM, as there's NO DNA EVIDENCE that points to TM punching or slamming GZ. IMO

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Ok. Has the defense ever claimed or agreed with your interpretation of RJ's words?
In closing, I believe he said he never did but lay in wait?

Because... He should have not walked by sprinted home from 711?

Just trying to ascertain the facts as the defense has presented them.

IT is not my interpretation it is HER ACTUAL WORDS. AS per testimony.

 

[Jane Jetson]

I wouldn't be surprised if the jury comes back with a "compromise verdict" of manslaughter. MOO.

That would be a travesty, and a miscarriage of justice, in my opinion. If these jurors stick with the facts as they have heard them, and not base their verdict on emotion, George Zimmerman will be acquitted, imo.

I do hope these jurors realize that what they do will come back to them - that's just my own belief, and I think it applies to everyone equally.

 

[EquallyDivided]

Not trying to one up you, Zoe Bogart, but I lived in Kennesaw, GA, where it has been the law to own a firearm since the 1980s.. Virtually crime free city...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw,_Georgia

'Kennesaw It's The LAW'..
In 2007, the city was selected by Family Circle magazine as one of the nation's "10 best towns for families".[3] The city is perhaps best known nationally for its mandatory gun-possession ordinance.[4]

Hey neighbor, Peachtree City here.

 

[ShadyLady]

So True. I could have never ever been on this jury. Once when I was trying to get heathier and taking daily hikes and walks, (15 years ago) I was accosted by a teen boy on a walking path in the middle of the day because I had no watch to give him the time. It affected me so much that I hate to go anywhere alone, and never at night, all because my path came in contact with an angry, angry young man. ugh. I can almost see how this played out in Florida.

Another teen (14) was just arrested in Florida...he dropped a gun as he was running, and also tried to grab a gun from an officer. I can see why people are getting afraid in some parts of Florida. imo

From Fox: OCALA, Fla.
A 14-year-old boy is facing 21 felony charges after authorities say he tried to grab a deputy's gun after a chase.

A Marion County Sheriff's deputy was searching an Ocala neighborhood for a burglary suspect and spotted the boy, who fit the description.