George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #5

[Horace Finklestein]

There would, however, be scrapes and bruises on TM's knuckles from 30 blows to GZ's face. Those would not be miraculously healed by death. I would appreciate your not calling my theory absurd. Thank you.

Flesh hitting flesh results in scrapes and bruises? Always? I'm not sure about that at all.

And are you saying your theory that GZ self-inflicted his wounds?

 

[iluvmua]

GZ did not just get out of his vehicle. Don't we wish he would have just gotten out of his car and not pursued Trayvon Martin?

Yes, But I also wish Trayvon would have gone straight home and thought what are the risks if I decided to get into a fight with someone.

IMO

Both of them made mistakes that night.

JMO

 

[PaperDoll]

I keep hearing this one alot and when I watched the reenactment and his statements what I think I remember GZ saying was that he spread out his arms. TM's top of his arms were actually spread with his lower arms then folding back toward the body with hands under.

So just for arguments sake: Is it possible that GZ pulled the arms outward slightly but due to TM's weight on the ground on top of his hands they didn't come out from the body?

I wonder this because GZ said he wanted to see if TM had something in his hands he was hitting him with but he never says whether he saw his hands or anything in them.

From my understanding GZ wanted to see his hands, so he spread out his arms (like a T) and IIRC he said he was holding him down.. So, I'm taking it like he had his arms with his hands straight out like a T.

 

[DIBSY]

I've stopped following this trial but I have to say without going into reasons why, I've seen a lot of head injuries over the years including some nasty bumps and falls. I find GZ's allegation that his head was slammed against the pavement impossible to believe.

Firstly re the bumps, a lot of heads have natural bumps and shapes on them. That GZ has hair now makes it impossible to see if that's the case. However re the bumps there's no obviously no bruising or none that appeared in the next day or two otherwise the DT would have taken photos of them. And last but not least, scalp wounds can often bleed rapidly because of the amount of blood vessels. Scalp wounds can often heal easily, and clearly in this case they weren't even deep enough to require further medical intervention. The wounds look worse than they are because the blood has gone down GZ's head.

ETA - I do acknowledge he obviously took some form of strike to his nose but that's as serious as his injuries got IMO.

Thanks for that insightful input, sir.

You know I find it excruciatingly annoying that if one thinks GZ is guilty of murder that you must " hate" him....that type of thinking is injurious IMO.
Hating a person and thinking they are guilty of a crime don't have to go hand in hand and often do not. Nor do I adore TM because he was a young victim. I simply feel his life was initially dismissed as not worth caring about because the usual suspects were dancing with the devil.

 

[polleypockets]

I'm still on the fence. Right now I would say that both GZ & TM were both looking for trouble & sure enough they found it. Very unfortunate all the way around!

how was tm looking for trouble??? he was just walking home from 711 w/ candy and a drink and was 70 yards from his house?? - he didn't rob the 711 or mug any old ladys on his walk did he?

 

[DIBSY]

Yes, But I also wish Trayvon would have gone straight home and thought what are the risks if I decided to get into a fight with someone.

IMO

Both of them made mistakes that night.

JMO

Beyond a doubt.

 

[4Jacy]

after your head has been beaten into a side walk, punched in the face 20 times (these are gz stories) in 10 secs he would be able get tm body off him, holster his gun, turn tm over then get on top of him, right after he was almost beaten to death??? really?? :twocents:

BBM

And that's exactly what they were stories!!

 

[JudyBolton]

GZ claims he got on top after the shot, then spread out TMs's hands (like a T), TM's hands were not spread out, they, or one, were under him when he was found face down. I hope I'm making sense :blushing:

I keep hearing this - GZ stated he thought TM had something in his hand. I think he stretch out his hands to check and when they were empty - just dropped his arms back to his side.

 

[Lovelymountains]

GZ's back was wet and TM had grass stains at the knees per testimony

Would you mind pointing out that testimony, please. If they were on the sidewalk, there would be no grass stains on TM's knees, even if he were atop GZ. Grass doesn't grow on a busy sidewalk. LOL

 

[qwerty2013]

Great first post!! WELCOME!! Keep posting!

:Welcome1:

:blushing:Thank you all. Great to see such a civil site for discourse on this tragic case.

:gthanks:

IMHO, for all the hoopla over the media photos of an underaged TM, GZ's own choice of action showed that TM wasn't as menacing as he appeared to GZ then as he is now made out to be because GZ decided to "take him on" right there on the spot, instead of staying in his truck and letting LE take care of the situation as advised in fear of his own safety, i.e. GZ's own gauge of the relative power situation between the two at the time suggests (correctly) to GZ that he would prevail. So again, it didn't make sense that for 2 minutes, TM suddenly turned from a weaker, running target into a strong, powerful, ruthless killing machine able to inflict lethal injuries to GZ before he was shot dead. 2 minutes of scuffles resulting in minor swelling and scratches doesn't add up to an assessment of potential lethal force. As an MMA practitioner, GZ must have endured much tougher and longer bouts of fighting.

 

[AZWatcher]

Yes, But I also wish Trayvon would have gone straight home and thought what are the risks if I decided to get into a fight with someone.

IMO

Both of them made mistakes that night.

JMO

You make it sound like GZ farted in an elevator or left his keys in his car. He decided that no "******* punk" was "getting away with it" that night. GZ's actions led to the death of an unarmed KID.

 

[ShadyLady]

Yes, but haterz gon' hate.

Some folks just hate Zimmerman, period -- facts be hanged.

You see it all over the MSM, especially HLN.

I don't even know the guy, but after enduring the beating and pummeling he clearly did, I certainly don't blame him for saving his own life; yes, even at the cost of his attacker's.

So far the most credible testimony and forensic evidence (nature of injuries, etc.) support the PD's original finding that GZ should never have been charged.

And that's whether folks hate him, or not.

I guess it makes a good story. Evil racist white man murders teen carrying skittles. Ignore all else. MSM-totally irresponsible reporting.

Also, I don't think Zimmerman just let Trayvon pound his head into cement...I am sure he used his neck muscles and shoulders to keep from receiving worse wounds. Had Trayvon continued he could have killed Zimmerman. Trayvon seemed the stronger physically NOT the weaker one. Plus the sucker punch probably threw Zimmerman off.

If Trayvon was by his father's house when he was speaking with Diamond, he could have gone in, but he chose not to, nor did Trayvon call 911. Even Diamond thought it was "just" a fight.

 

[Chester_from_THM]

It is so refreshing how well-behaved these lawyers are. This trial has so many hot buttons 'built-in', I am glad they are all remaining calm and doing their jobs without being over wrought, pissy, and screachy.

Although there seemed to be a few flubs here and there, they all seem competent and poised.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

:blushing:Thank you all. Great to see such a civil site for discourse on this tragic case.

:gthanks:

IMHO, for all the hoopla over the media photos of an underaged TM, GZ's own choice of action showed that TM wasn't as menacing as he appeared to GZ then as he is now made out to be because GZ decided to "take him on" right there on the spot, instead of staying in his truck and letting LE take care of the situation as advised in fear of his own safety, i.e. GZ's own gauge of the relative power situation between the two at the time suggests (correctly) to GZ that he would prevail. So again, it didn't make sense that for 2 minutes, TM suddenly turned from a weaker, running target into a strong, powerful, ruthless killing machine able to inflict lethal injuries to GZ before he was shot dead. 2 minutes of scuffles resulting in minor swelling and scratches doesn't add up to an assessment of potential lethal force. As an MMA practitioner, GZ must have endured much tougher and longer bouts of fighting.

He didn't fight in MMA, he was considered "soft" and they wouldn't put him in real combat. This was already covered.

 

[Lovelymountains]

This is something I have never understood. Please disregard if this has already been discussed, but people keep saying TM didn't go home because maybe he was afraid GZ would follow him home and only his little step-brother was there and that wasn't safe. But leaving the young child unattended while he goes to the store is ok?? Please someone help me out with this. TIA!

According to RJ, TM did reach his father's fiancee's house, or at least he said he was in back of it. So that was his goal. However, again according to RJ, GZ followed him there and they spoke to each other. Then the phone fell, according to RJ and she heard TM ask why GZ was following him and GZ ask TM what he was doing there. So I believe he did attempt to go home and was almost there, but was forced back by GZ toward GZ's vehicle, but after about 70 feet, TM attempted to escape this false imprisonment and it was then that GZ shot him. This theory answers every question. If we believe RJ, and I do, TM almost made it home to safety.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

You make it sound like GZ farted in an elevator or left his keys in his car. He decided that no "******* punk" was "getting away with it" that night. GZ's actions led to the death of an unarmed KID.

I rather think TM wanted to teach creepy cracker a lesson.

 

[PaintingAnemone]

How does the number of face blows keep increasing? First someone said it was 20, now it's 10 more? Has an actual number ever been said?

Zimmerman himself said 25 to 30 punches to his face. This has been referenced with links earlier in the thread.

 

[AngelWings444]

God forbid someone attacks another person that is walking behind them following them into the subway station and onto the train...off at the same stop on their way to work.

We should all be fair here. "Following" someone into the subway station is very different than calling LE, reporting someone as looking like they are on drugs, up to no good and saying those ^*&$($ always get away.

I will never understand why anyone would follow someone when they think they are on drugs, up to no good etc...doesn't make sense.

 

[m00c0w]

You make it sound like GZ farted in an elevator or left his keys in his car. He decided that no "******* punk" was "getting away with it" that night. GZ's actions led to the death of an unarmed KID.

People keep saying "KID" or "CHILD" like it makes it impossible for Martin to have been a credible threat to Zimmerman's life.

 

[polleypockets]

People keep bringing up George getting out of the car...So what...He got out of his car and watched Trayvon...possibly asked him a question...Why didn't Trayvon just tell him his father lived there?

why didn't gz tell him he was w/ neighborhood watch??