Gerard Baden Clay's murder appeal

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http://www.skynews.com.au/news/national/2015/08/07/baden-clay-to-appeal-murder-conviction.html
Allison Baden-Clay's death 'unintentional'
Friday, 7 August 2015

"... Court of Appeal Justices Catherine Holmes, Hugh Fraser and Robert Gotterson have reserved their judgment, which is expected within three months."

7th August to 7th November is 3 months. Where is the promised result?


http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...as-allisons-death-murder-20150807-giu66v.html

Gerard Baden-Clay appeal: Was Allison's death murder?
August 7, 2015 by Kim Stephens

"... In the coming months, Justices Holmes, Fraser and Gotterson will have to determine if Baden-Clay's conduct in covering up his wife's death constituted murdering her.
It will ultimately decide whether Baden Clay remains in jail, or whether his defence team gets another chance to convince a jury that Allison Baden-Clay's death was a tragic accident".
:thinking:
 
I imagine everyone here on WS is frustrated at how long it's taking. :waiting::waiting:

But gosh, just thinking about Allison's family. The anxiety for her parents. What is the hold up?? Get a move on, guys! :gavel:
 
I imagine everyone here on WS is frustrated at how long it's taking. :waiting::waiting:

But gosh, just thinking about Allison's family. The anxiety for her parents. What is the hold up?? Get a move on, guys! :gavel:
But imagine the wait for GBC! Surely he doesn't expect to walk


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But imagine the wait for GBC! Surely he doesn't expect to walk

I think he does expect to walk BreakingNews, and I am so afraid that the judges will agree that he just somehow kind of managed to accidentally kill Allison without really realising what he was doing. And the longer they take, the more likely that outcome seems.

Surely if they thought he had no grounds for appeal, they would already have denied his appeal. The longer they take, that suggests they are giving more weight to his case. I'm getting so upset thinking about it. I just hope I'm wrong. Never have I more wanted to be wrong.
 
I think he does expect to walk BreakingNews, and I am so afraid that the judges will agree that he just somehow kind of managed to accidentally kill Allison without really realising what he was doing. And the longer they take, the more likely that outcome seems.

Surely if they thought he had no grounds for appeal, they would already have denied his appeal. The longer they take, that suggests they are giving more weight to his case. I'm getting so upset thinking about it. I just hope I'm wrong. Never have I more wanted to be wrong.
Maintain the faith, Fluffykins. The judges are very busy and maybe that is the delay. Alioops? You there? Can you shed some light on why this might be taking so long?


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By and large, the 3 month appeal protocol is adhered to (with some notable exceptions such as the Cowan appeal) but it's a guideline only, one that permits for an extension in exceptional circumstances.

There could be any number of reasons for the delay, which we must remember is only a couple of weeks at this time, including -

- Workload of the appeal Justices and judicial staff.
- Court holidays.
- The complexity of the argument, many appeals are straight forward and either lack merit/are vexatious or it is immediately obvious that an error has occurred. Putting aside our prejudices, it cannot be said that this appeal lacks merit or is straight forward.
- Sensitivity concerns, delaying the judgement until important dates pass (particularly in regards to the victim). No court wants to interfere with a conviction or sentence on the anniversary of the death of the victim for example.
- Where there is dissension or a particular Justice wants to add additional information to support their decision this will require the reserved judgement to be re-written/re-formatted to a degree instead of the usual "I've had the advantage of reading/I agree with the reasons given..." notation.

Obviously every appeal is important to the parties involved but this case is complex for a number of reasons, one of these being the wide potential sentencing range. If Gerard is convicted of manslaughter, there is the potential for parole eligibility to be only a year or two from now, if not immediately (for this to occur he must be sentenced to less than 10 years and without a serious violent offender declaration, immediate parole eligibility is extremely unlikely in any case) in contrast to the possibility of remaining in prison for the remainder of his life if the conviction stands. That's a tremendous sentencing range and a great deal of responsibility is in the hands of the 3 Justices involved, not to mention the Justice who would be in charge of sentencing when it was remitted to the Supreme Court. This is particularly true as the sentencing range for manslaughter in this case would have to be somewhere in the region of 10 years, which is the point where SVO declaration (and thus 80% of the sentence must be served) becomes mandatory. This is of course further complicated by the fact that no cause of death, and therefore level of violence, was ever established.

The delay is frustrating for all concerned but given the level of public interest and complexity of the grounds of appeal, I think we could all stand to be a little patient. I'm sure we will know more by Christmas.
 
I think we will hear something very soon. I put the delay down to work load of the judges.
I am still confident they will dismiss the appeal. Circumstantial cases involve lots of pieces of evidence, which individually don't have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but taken together as a whole as evidence of murder which can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I think the court will find that it was open to the jury to find him guilty of murder on the evidence.
People have been convicted of murder where no body has been found but the circumstantial evidence is sufficient to prove murder even though the actual death hasn't been proven as there is no dead body by which to prove the death.
 
I think we will hear something very soon. I put the delay down to work load of the judges.
I am still confident they will dismiss the appeal. Circumstantial cases involve lots of pieces of evidence, which individually don't have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but taken together as a whole as evidence of murder which can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I think the court will find that it was open to the jury to find him guilty of murder on the evidence.
People have been convicted of murder where no body has been found but the circumstantial evidence is sufficient to prove murder even though the actual death hasn't been proven as there is no dead body by which to prove the death.

Ah, the calm voice of reason. Thank you Alioop.
 
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1448775598.748441.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1448775630.547658.jpg
Thank you everyone about the discussion of the appeal of GBC. My limited knowledge is that Justice Charmody is out of action.

In speaking of accidental accidents.,. I once sliced my finger grating a carrot. I did not throw my carrot from the backyard vegetation, get a cattipellar bite and then accidentally grate it.

These are two pictures from my recent visit to the memorial. Notice the 3 angels.
 
View attachment 85001View attachment 85002
Thank you everyone about the discussion of the appeal of GBC. My limited knowledge is that Justice Charmody is out of action.

In speaking of accidental accidents.,. I once sliced my finger grating a carrot. I did not throw my carrot from the backyard vegetation, get a cattipellar bite and then accidentally grate it.

These are two pictures from my recent visit to the memorial. Notice the 3 angels.

Beautiful Flinders, thank you.
 
View attachment 85001View attachment 85002
Thank you everyone about the discussion of the appeal of GBC. My limited knowledge is that Justice Charmody is out of action.

In speaking of accidental accidents.,. I once sliced my finger grating a carrot. I did not throw my carrot from the backyard vegetation, get a cattipellar bite and then accidentally grate it.

These are two pictures from my recent visit to the memorial. Notice the 3 angels.

Thanks for the beautiful pictures. I think GBC should be taken there to see how people feel about Allison.
 
Thanks for the beautiful pictures. I think GBC should be taken there to see how people feel about Allison.

I'm just thankful that Allison's memorial hasn't been vandalised. That would be truly heartbreaking.
 
I think we will hear something very soon. I put the delay down to work load of the judges.
I am still confident they will dismiss the appeal. Circumstantial cases involve lots of pieces of evidence, which individually don't have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but taken together as a whole as evidence of murder which can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I think the court will find that it was open to the jury to find him guilty of murder on the evidence.
People have been convicted of murder where no body has been found but the circumstantial evidence is sufficient to prove murder even though the actual death hasn't been proven as there is no dead body by which to prove the death.

As always, value your professional perspective :)

Circumstantial cases can be difficult to prosecute but as you point out, even in the absence of a body, murder can be proved to the requisite standard.

The issue I personally have with this particular case is that the prosecution spent a great deal of time focusing on proving that Gerard was responsible for Allison's death (and thus met the criteria for unlawful death) but were a little vague when it came to proving intent and if I was on that jury I'm not sure I could have been convinced of intent to kill.

If the ground of appeal dealing with the failure to give a Shepherd Direction in relation to the blood in the car fails (if it was to succeed we would almost certainly see a retrial at best, acquittal at worst) there's no doubt that the prosecution has proved that Gerard unlawfully killed Allison, the defence team has admitted as much. However it is much harder to prove that the accused was responsible for the death of a person than it is to prove that they meant kill.

You'll have to forgive as I haven't gone back over the fine details but I recall 3 main possibilities that the prosecution put forward that may have provided the catalyst for murder -

- Gerard was in dire financial straits and was seeking an insurance payout.
- The almost imminent meeting of Allison and Toni in the coming days.
- Toni's pressure to end the relationship with Allison.

Not knowing how Gerard's mind works, it's of course possible that one (or more) of the above pushed him over the edge but did the prosecution prove intent, to a level that is acceptable to the appellate court? Personally I don't believe so.

Ordinarily you might expect to see a degree of sophistication and pre-meditation when one is motivated by financial greed. I don't believe this is present in this case. To me at least, this seems to be a spur of the moment killing with no evidence whatsoever that this was planned in any great detail, or indeed planned at all.

The possible crossing paths of Allison and Tony, uncomfortable it may have been but is it sufficient to drive a man with no criminal history, no history of violence, to commit murder? Possible? Of course, but I wouldn't hang my hat on it.

As for Toni's pressure, it seemed obvious to me that Gerard was never going to leave Allison but wanted to have his cake and eat it too, so to speak. I cannot be convinced that Toni's charms were persuasive enough to push Gerard to kill Allison. Rightly or wrongly many, many people engage in affairs but in almost all of the cases that I'm aware of where an extra marital/relationship affair led to a homicide, it was the overwhelming urge to be with the illegitimate partner. I don't believe there was ever any genuine desire to leave Allison for Toni, just Gerard telling Toni what she wanted to hear when all the evidence suggested otherwise.

Not for a moment suggesting that Gerard had no intentions of killing Allison, there's a very good chance he did. But to me, a very good chance does not satisfy the element of intent and thus he should instead be found guilty of manslaughter, not murder.

I would say it's more likely than not that we will see a downgrade.
 
Thank you for your contributions Alioop and JCB which give us 'food for thought' while awaiting the outcome of the appeal.

JCB, these comments in your post are interesting:

"Not knowing how Gerard's mind works..."

"Not for a moment suggesting that Gerard had no intentions of killing Allison, there's a very good chance he did.."

You have your opinion, WS's have their opinions and the Jury had the legal right to form its opinion on this matter.

A ruthless desire to 'win' and 'triumph' with a sense of 'being above the law' is also an interesting element IMO.
 
FYI
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/com...nt-in-appeal-for-freedom-20150826-gj8ksh.html

Gerard Baden-Clay changes argument in appeal for freedom
August 27, 2015 by Madonna King.

Gerard Baden-Clay shows why we must reform our judicial system.
How can he argue now - as part of his appeal - that he might have unintentionally killed his wife Allison, when he swore black and blue, at his trial only a year ago, that he did not?

Just rewind a year... questions Baden-Clay was asked, under oath, by his lawyer Michael Byrne 14 months ago:

Did you kill your wife Allison?
"No I did not," Baden-Clay said.

"Did you fight with her on the evening of the 19th (of April 2012)?"
"No I did not," he answered.

Madonna King poses key questions in this article. She speaks for many of us with similar questions.
We are watching our judicial system with this one.
 
'Ordinarily you might expect to see a degree of sophistication and pre-meditation when one is motivated by financial greed. I don't believe this is present in this case. To me at least, this seems to be a spur of the moment killing with no evidence whatsoever that this was planned in any great detail, or indeed planned at all.'

thankyou for your post , JCB...

it is only my supposition, but it appears that the fact , admitted to, and placed in evidence, of that tiny little email of Gerard to Toni ,re ' I will be free on July 1st ' ( I paraphrase because I cant recall the exact wording ) .. was enough , probably more than enough to build the solid foundation of intent , and intent of long standing. ( I always thought July 1 was significant because it was the end of the tax year, a horrendous time to someone who has cooked the books as cackhandedly as Gerard did, but it turns out it was Alison's birthday as well ) ...

While this waiting stuff is a little bit maddening to me, I rejoice in how maddening it must be for Gerard.. he must be getting some insight, if only partial, on how all those irritated people he owed money to had to wait and wait and wait ( and never get paid ) felt.. I also feel a profound empathy for that wretched woman partner, Joyce who , wanting out of Gerard's ambience in any way possible, was willing to chew her own leg off ( an analogy) by giving up all desire of having her investment paid back. I expect she would see that now as one of her wisest moves.

For his girls. .. horror. ..This is Gerard 's legacy. How Olivia , the sister is able to go back to her church and instruct women on how to behave after her telling off by judge ( he laid out how reprehensible and particularly repulsive the story Gerard, Olivia and Dad tried to pull on over the jury re Allison's state of mind) is another mystery.

And that leaves Toni. .. Now, a late middle aged woman with a dicey employment record and possibly not much future in the real estate trade, perhaps she has gone back to art teaching.. Somehow, I doubt that. .. Does she long for those heady days of complete subjection to Gerard's whims and fancies? . .. to the long years of burying any ambitions of her own and attaching herself to Gerards flimsy coat tails? to being the screamer in the relationship yet the one most powerless? all those heady days, weeks , months of waiting in such crazed expectation for the news that finally did come, in the very worst way possible...? .. I bet she does.

Having as an aspiration the fever to become Mrs Baden-Clay, and not anything else has to be one of the silliest ideas of all time. .. Someone with a bit of sense finally persuaded Toni that her 'book' was liable to be a real sinker and stinker, and to genteely fade away, .... It is unlikely that she will be heard of for some time, .. although, I do expect to hear, one day way down the track, about the in-prison wedding of Gerard and Toni, where Toni, now well into her 60's, or even the low 70's is granted 3 hours a month in a conjugal visit with Gerard.. where they both creak into a private cell, and creak back out again. Toni will never give up on Gerard, and Gerard will accept over the years that this is the best that can be salvaged...
 
Gerard Baden-Clay appeal up in air almost four months after lawyers argued murder conviction unreasonable

December 1, 2015 1:00am

GERARD Baden-Clay’s appeal remains in limbo almost four months after his legal team argued his conviction for his wife’s murder was unreasonable.

Chief Justice Catherine Holmes, Justice Hugh Fraser and Justice Robert Gotterson are yet to deliver their judgment after a Court of Appeal hearing on August 7.

Supreme Court of Queensland protocols require reserved judgments to be handed down within three months unless there are exceptional circumstances. Parties concerned about delays beyond that time can contact the Queensland Law Society or Bar Association.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/na...e/news-story/f0149742cc630eac5ebe7fb4fbda9d05
 
Thanks for the beautiful pictures. I think GBC should be taken there to see how people feel about Allison.

Good thought Breaking but he should never again enjoy a ride in a vehicle. Except going from court back to his kennel. Sit Fido sit.....bad boy Fido.
 
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