Gilgo Beach 4 Only (GB4)

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
All good points in the thread. Since we are still speculating and only IMO, there are a few things that make my spidy sense kick in. Sorry for any repetition.
If you are LISK why would you pick up the escort and drive to LI to kill the victim quickly?
If you are LISK why would you call a family member AFTER killing the victim and risk the call pinging a tower?
If you are LISK and you know (based on dates of missing GB4) there may be a period of time between your next victim....would you want to make this last as long as possible?
I have an opinion on these questions but I'm just saying......
Small details can become crucial and IMO one of the biggest clues is the phone call. He took a chance with those calls and apparently chose to not take the risk again. Correct me if I am wrong but I think one of the GB4 left without her phone. Did he tell her not to bring it? Did she trust him enough to listen? Does any one know if one of them left her phone behind and was law enforcement able to get the phone and check her text messages and calls? I have searched far and wide on this.
I like the brainstorming.
 
If you are LISK why would you pick up the escort and drive to LI to kill the victim quickly?

As for Maureen Brainard-Barnes and Melissa Barthelemy it could be that Unsub worked in the city and lived on Long Island. Megan Waterman and Amber Lynn Costello were already on Long Island when he picked them up.

If you are LISK why would you call a family member AFTER killing the victim and risk the call pinging a tower?

I had speculated in my previous post on this thread as to the reason he called Amanda Barthelemy.

If you are LISK and you know (based on dates of missing GB4) there may be a period of time between your next victim....would you want to make this last as long as possible?

We know Unsub was very meticulous about the aftermath of each murder. He carefully wrapped each of the victim's bodies in burlap and delivered them to a specific area by the water, spacing them almost evenly apart, almost like a graveyard by the sea. I don't necessarily feel that he planned these murders, or killed to get some type of sexual satisfaction. The murders seem more like crimes of passion or explosive rage. In the cases of Megan Waterman and Amber Lynn Costello they were comfortable enough to go with him without the normal safeguards such as a cell phone or a driver. While they were with him something triggered Unsub to become uncontrollably enraged, and in this state he killed them.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think one of the GB4 left without her phone. Did he tell her not to bring it? Did she trust him enough to listen?

For whatever reason both Megan Waterman and Amber Lynn Costello trusted Unsub enough to leave their cell phones behind.

Does any one know if one of them left her phone behind and was law enforcement able to get the phone and check her text messages and calls? I have searched far and wide on this.

I’m not sure if the cell phones are in evidence, or if law enforcement were able to retrieve any information from them. That is a good point and I’m going to research it.
 
All good points in the thread. Since we are still speculating and only IMO, there are a few things that make my spidy sense kick in. Sorry for any repetition.
If you are LISK why would you pick up the escort and drive to LI to kill the victim quickly?
If you are LISK why would you call a family member AFTER killing the victim and risk the call pinging a tower?
If you are LISK and you know (based on dates of missing GB4) there may be a period of time between your next victim....would you want to make this last as long as possible?
I have an opinion on these questions but I'm just saying......
Small details can become crucial and IMO one of the biggest clues is the phone call. He took a chance with those calls and apparently chose to not take the risk again. Correct me if I am wrong but I think one of the GB4 left without her phone. Did he tell her not to bring it? Did she trust him enough to listen? Does any one know if one of them left her phone behind and was law enforcement able to get the phone and check her text messages and calls? I have searched far and wide on this.
I like the brainstorming.

Just my two pennies, and thanks for joining in the discussion!:

1. If you are LISK why would you pick up the escort and drive to LI to kill the victim quickly?

From my point of view, I guess it depends on what drives LISK, the compulsion to kill, what needs he felt were temporarily satisfied by committing such an act. I look at the call with AB, where the psychological torture in that was stretched out over several calls. I understand there may be other views of why it was done, and that's good, and important to have differing opinions/angles. For me, IMO, it was done to make AB feel alone, scared, terrified. She was alone on the phone with this guy who was basically telling her the worst possible things she could imagine. He knew that she was MB's sister. If I was MB, and if I was being held captive somewhere and physically tortured, the last thing I would do would be to talk about my family, especially any vulnerable girls he could target next. That's just me. I think he must have known at least MB prior, on at least a level that they were friendly enough for her to talk about her family, or share that information about AB. Or, he got that information in some other way (computer, etc.) I think the person/s knew MB beforehand, had met her at least once. In short, I don't think LISK was out for a quick kill thrill, more of the type to slowly build up, and slowly cool down. I think the act of killing is just a part of it, for him.

2. If you are LISK why would you call a family member AFTER killing the victim and risk the call pinging a tower?

I think LISK was confident in his skill set to avoid detection, and the urge to reach out was too great to ignore, at the time. That's all I can imagine.

3. If you are LISK and you know (based on dates of missing GB4) there may be a period of time between your next victim....would you want to make this last as long as possible?

Again, I think, depends on the type of serial killer. Is the killing the whole point for them, is it only about killing, or is killing just a part of some other sort of psychological ritualized thing for them. Do they keep trophies, do they revisit sites, etc. etc. There are others who have done extensive research on different kinds of serial killers, even some on this board, who could probably answer that with a certain level of confidence much better than I could.

As for any cell phone evidence, the closest I was able to come in finding information was on the series, Grim Tide: Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer. I had to pay a fee at the time to watch it, it may still have a fee for an app attached. I don't know how many people watched it because of that, many people may not have wanted to pay the fee, and I understand.

Good questions! Looking forward to hearing others opinions, too.
 
Let’s think about it for a moment.

With regard to all of the victims (excluding Baby Doe) some similar factors are as follows:

1) The victims were similar in age
2) The victims were all sex workers
3) The victims bodies were all dumped in the vicinity of Ocean Parkway

The Gilgo Beach 4 were killed by Unsub. The time frame matches and the modus operandi is identical.

In each case the killer came to the victim. The victims did not have their own driver, and instead rode with the killer in his vehicle. This is not the case with Shannan Gilbert. We know that she was driven to Oak Beach by her own personal driver, who she hired for the purpose, to the customer’s house. There is no theory that she was familiar with the customer before that evening, she did not leave her cell phone behind.

Unidentified Asian Male is killed by Unsub. The cause of death is blunt force trauma to the head.

Jessica Taylor, Valerie Mack, Jane Doe No. 7, Baby Doe were killed by John Bitrolff. The modus operandi is identical and the links to Manorville fit.

Though the cases of the GB4, Shannan Gilbert and the rest of the victims appear similar, as you look deeper you begin to notice the differences in circumstances.
Not everyone knows that Shannan had multiple phones on her.
 
The public asked for the 911 calls. But we get Waterman in a lobby instead. Thanks for nothing. This is as dumb as the big deal with the belt.
 
I'm grateful that the videos of Megan were released, finally. I know we are all still waiting on the 911 calls, and it has been years. However; Megan is still a victim, herself, and still part of the GB4. I watched the videos with my husband, and felt very emotional. Seeing her just standing there at the counter, really reminded me of why this ongoing search is so important, and every little bit helps--we see her as a person, not just a photograph. The videos are not the best quality, and it is a shame it has taken so long for them to be released, but I think after we look at them a few times there will be things to see in there. And, I hope...even though it's been so long, one of the other guests or staff might remember her, *or* someone sees one of the guests there and recognizes them, and that they should not have been there, didn't know they were there, etc.
 
I'm grateful that the videos of Megan were released, finally. I know we are all still waiting on the 911 calls, and it has been years. However; Megan is still a victim, herself, and still part of the GB4. I watched the videos with my husband, and felt very emotional. Seeing her just standing there at the counter, really reminded me of why this ongoing search is so important, and every little bit helps--we see her as a person, not just a photograph. The videos are not the best quality, and it is a shame it has taken so long for them to be released, but I think after we look at them a few times there will be things to see in there. And, I hope...even though it's been so long, one of the other guests or staff might remember her, *or* someone sees one of the guests there and recognizes them, and that they should not have been there, didn't know they were there, etc.
Do u remember strangers from 10 years ago?! I certainly don’t. I don’t think this is going to help anyone…except maybe the police might feel like the public thinks they are doing something.
 
Do u remember strangers from 10 years ago?! I certainly don’t. I don’t think this is going to help anyone…except maybe the police might feel like the public thinks they are doing something.



I agree, I dont know how anyone would remember a stranger from over 10 years ago. If a criminal act was being committed in your presence, then possibly, but not when everything is smooth sailing & normal around you.

If these videos were put out to the public after her body was found, then I could see someone coming forward with possible information. Knowing she was a sex worker, I wonder if detectives would have put out the videos of her disappearance knowing the last sighting was at the hotel.
 
Great post, good thoughts to ponder. IMO, westbound/bay side of the road, from what I can remember, would be the quickest logical area/place to dump (possibly) after coming off the Robert Moses Causeway, going westbound.

The bramble on the westbound side was a little thicker, I believe, and closer to the roadway--or, at least in memory, that's what I remember. I remember the westbound side seeming to be more "narrow" and less open. The eastbound side always seemed to feel more open to me, and a little more of a road shoulder/grassy area before the bramble. I think there are places to make U-Turns on the road to head back to the mainland (locals, correct me if I'm wrong).

Upsetting to say, but from my memory, maybe would have had to go a longer way with a body transferred from a vehicle to put in the bramble on the eastbound side.

Could be that this person/persons were on the way to Queens, or other boroughs, or could be that they simply circled around, using the Jones Beach Causeway (?) and lived on Long Island. All conjecture.
GB4 are dumped VERY NEAR to a turnaround
 
Great post, good thoughts to ponder. IMO, westbound/bay side of the road, from what I can remember, would be the quickest logical area/place to dump (possibly) after coming off the Robert Moses Causeway, going westbound.

The bramble on the westbound side was a little thicker, I believe, and closer to the roadway--or, at least in memory, that's what I remember. I remember the westbound side seeming to be more "narrow" and less open. The eastbound side always seemed to feel more open to me, and a little more of a road shoulder/grassy area before the bramble. I think there are places to make U-Turns on the road to head back to the mainland (locals, correct me if I'm wrong).

Upsetting to say, but from my memory, maybe would have had to go a longer way with a body transferred from a vehicle to put in the bramble on the eastbound side.

Could be that this person/persons were on the way to Queens, or other boroughs, or could be that they simply circled around, using the Jones Beach Causeway (?) and lived on Long Island. All conjecture.
GB4 are dumped VERY NEAR to a turnaround
I often wonder, WHY THERE? Here is a link to google maps. If you look closely, there is only one way in to Oak Beach residences (the roads that are gray on the map are in the gated part)...and one way out. When you exit, you are going eastbound and before you get to the Causeway, (we say "by the pencil"), there is a turnaround to go west.

So to end up where the victims were found you would either have to pass Oak Beach, come out of the OB community, come from the RM Causeway, Captree (Boat Basin/Park) or Robert Moses (which RM doesn't seem likely IMO). There are so many hidden places on the mainland in big parks. I always tend to think the victims were not transported too far, since at least 4 were in the same area it would be faster and less risky to travel too far. It is just such an odd place to choose. If they were coming from Queens, there are so many closer spots that are even more desolate. So it is my belief that the killer(s) have some sort of ties to the general area. And being that Oak Beach is pretty known for wild parties with drugs and prostitutes, I do always think it is connected. Yes, it is extremely desolate and dark there at night. Sometimes even during the day there's NO ONE around! So that would make it ideal in that way. But to my understanding, they were not too deep into the bramble, almost like they didn't care if the bodies were found. I even want to say it seems lazy and rushed.
It is also upsetting to wonder just how many have NOT been found.

I'm not 100% sure SG has the same murderer as the GB4, but I believe it is very likely. She was the only one found on the south side of Ocean Parkway, to my understanding. So she is different in that way. However, she is also different in that she almost escaped her situation. So if she was put there, not on her own, it would separate her from the others and make it look like she just ran and died from drowning or the the elements or whatever theory they have pushed.
This^^^
 
Thanks much for the great discussion points. LISK has disturbed me for a long time. In noodling over the case. IM most humble O I have jotted down things that may or may not be relevant. I've followed all of the media, podcasts, and documentaries on LISK. I am a woman and have never been an escort so slipping into their shoes is not easy. Even more difficult is being a woman and NOT a serial killer makes it harder to get inside LISK's head. Feel free to point out additions or updates and opinions to my brainwave speculation.
LISK "might" be:
uncomfortable with women but has had relationships
Took the risk of being seen
Although never mentioned, may have taken something from each victim
Had some freedom with his schedule.
He has made mistakes but law enforcement may not realize it (due to law enforcement complications)
The burlap has a meaning to him and also defines his organizational pattern
He likely watched the coverage
Has strong ties to the area and knows it well.
Might have more than one vehicle so his car is not remembered. Probably something common
His personality can switch quickly
He may not be threatening. The escorts might not feel comfortable jumping in a van/car with a dude who is built like The Rock
It is possible that people in the area know him. He blends well. Me personally when they say "oh he was quiet and lived in his mom's basement." My neck hairs stick straight out
Someone has seen him
Would not quit unless dead, in jail, moved (in which case still killing as some suspect), or got too old.

Anyone know someone like this? He probably likes tiny escorts in their early to late 20's.
 
"might" be: uncomfortable with women but has had relationships

I believe Unsub to suffer from limerence in his romantic relationships with women, and that he's had several extremely heartbreaking romantic relationships with women over the course of his life most likely beginning during adolescence, and possibly experienced being "cheated on" by them during one, some or all of these romantic relationships.

Although never mentioned, may have taken something from each victim

I feel that he absolutely took a personal item of sentimental value from each of his victims. I believe he had successfully related to them in a more personal way than just a client relationship.

The burlap has a meaning to him and also defines his organizational pattern

Burlap was referred to as sackcloth in the Bible and represents mourning. I believe that Unsub was brought up in a strict Christian household, but also may have dabbled in the occult.

He likely watched the coverage

I think he is a narcissist and most definitely watched the coverage.

Has strong ties to the area and knows it well.

I feel that Unsub lives or used to live somewhere near Ocean Parkway, on the South Shore of Long Island, and within a 30 minute drive of Amber Lynn Costello's former residence in North Babylon.

His personality can switch quickly

I think that Unsub suffers not only from limerence but also explosive rage disorder, and that his uncontrollable rage is triggered when he loses patience.

Would not quit unless dead, in jail, moved (in which case still killing as some suspect), or got too old.

I agree and believe Unsub could still be killing, most probably killed more than just the GB4 and Asian male, has changed his dumping ground and adapted his modus operandi.

In my research of the case, and thinking about it for several years now my ideas about it have evolved over time. I believe Unsub is responsible for the murders of the GB4 and Unidentified Asian male, but not Shannan Gilbert and the other victims found along Ocean Parkway.

My train of thought about the killer is as follows:

On the surface Unsub appears to be a "john" who is disgruntled with women and derives some sort of pleasure from killing them, but I think that his motivation is different than just that.

Prostitutes provide an easy way for him to approach and engage with them intimately, and there is very little risk, or no risk at all, of him being rejected. He seems to be seeking "damsels in distress" possibly believing, in his mind, that he is will be able to relate to them and help save them from a troubled life. I believe that Unsub has a history of drug abuse which helps him to relate to them and them to him, especially in the case of Amber Lynn Costello. I feel that in the case of Melissa Barthelemy, the calls to her younger sister were his way of trying to scare her away from the lifestyle that her older sister was engaged in.

Unsub's past heartbreaking relationships, and him feeling "cheated on" is significant. He says to Melissa Barthelemy's younger sister, "Do you know what your sister is doing? She's a *advertiser censored*!" The word "*advertiser censored*" is connected to prostitution, and has also been used by men to refer to women who pursued unfaithful desires. The idea of a woman being a "*advertiser censored*" is revolting to Unsub, because not only does it denote the betrayal he felt in his past romantic relationships, it also conflicts with his strict Christian upbringing.

When he finally connects with a potential victim he is willing to pay them for the time they spend with him, and is able to successfully convince them that he is trying to help them change their life for the better. He develops a more personal relationship with them and they begin to trust him. From the potential victim's standpoint, as long as they are earning money, they have no problem spending time with and listening to him. He may seem harmless to them, and this may be the reason that Megan Waterman and Amber Lyn Costello felt safe enough to go with him absent their cell phone and without the protection of their own driver.

At some point during the relationship with the potential victim Unsub loses patience and his explosive rage is triggered, and in this state of uncontrollable rage he strangles them to death.

After he kills them he seems to dispose of their bodies in a ritualistic way, carefully wrapping them in burlap and placing them almost evenly apart, and in an area by the water that is familiar to him, almost like his own personal graveyard. He even returns to the area to visit them afterwards, as he states in his phone call to Melissa Barthelemy's younger sister, "I'm watching your sister rot.". The ritualism is what makes me believe he dabbles in the occult, and that he took something personal and sentimental from them for safekeeping. In the case of Maureen Brainard-Barnes he also left something significant of his with her, which was the belt with the initials inscribed.
 
Do u remember strangers from 10 years ago?! I certainly don’t. I don’t think this is going to help anyone…except maybe the police might feel like the public thinks they are doing something.

I think in usual cases, you're absolutely right. I likely would not remember a stranger from 10 years ago who I passed on the street. The only thing I think this has going for it, is that someone might recognize someone they know and notify them that they saw them on the tape. If other guests were there for a special event, wedding, funeral, family visit, it might jog their memory. A little. That is, maybe if they saw a struggle, or heard an argument, sometimes things like that might stick in someone's mind. This many years later though, I agree, overall, if Megan just seemed to be passing through, and the other guests were just passing through, chance for recall is very small.
 
Thanks much for the great discussion points. LISK has disturbed me for a long time. In noodling over the case. IM most humble O I have jotted down things that may or may not be relevant. I've followed all of the media, podcasts, and documentaries on LISK. I am a woman and have never been an escort so slipping into their shoes is not easy. Even more difficult is being a woman and NOT a serial killer makes it harder to get inside LISK's head. Feel free to point out additions or updates and opinions to my brainwave speculation.
LISK "might" be:
uncomfortable with women but has had relationships
Took the risk of being seen
Although never mentioned, may have taken something from each victim
Had some freedom with his schedule.
He has made mistakes but law enforcement may not realize it (due to law enforcement complications)
The burlap has a meaning to him and also defines his organizational pattern
He likely watched the coverage
Has strong ties to the area and knows it well.
Might have more than one vehicle so his car is not remembered. Probably something common
His personality can switch quickly
He may not be threatening. The escorts might not feel comfortable jumping in a van/car with a dude who is built like The Rock
It is possible that people in the area know him. He blends well. Me personally when they say "oh he was quiet and lived in his mom's basement." My neck hairs stick straight out
Someone has seen him
Would not quit unless dead, in jail, moved (in which case still killing as some suspect), or got too old.

Anyone know someone like this? He probably likes tiny escorts in their early to late 20's.

Yes, to all points.
 
White-Rabbit you are definitely one of my favorites. Thanks for taking the time for such a through response to my post. I too have had my opinion evolve over the years and agree on your points. My major assumption is that the GB4 were killed by the same person. Totally agree that he took something from each. Asian male I don't remember timeframe. IMO the killer was unaware that the Asian was a man. I don't think it went well when the killer found out. I agree that he grooms them and may feel a connection to them until they say or do something that sets him off. I also agree that SG was not one of his victims. Something went down with her but the OB neighborhood was strange. I go back and forth on the rest of the victims. If LISK did all of the killings, he was young when he started. Late 20's or even early 30's would not make him but 14 years older from the discovery of the first dismembered victim in 1996 to GB4. He too could have evolved. IMO and based on research, dismemberment is not a primary choice for killers but more to hide the crime or dispose of the victim. In 1996 scattering body parts may have seemed like the best way to get rid of a victim and it worked well for some time. As social media improved for escort business, LISK could have felt he hit the mother lode. I agree the burlap is extremely relevant. I would like to know what law enforcement took from the sites the GB4 were disposed in. Dirt, leaves, bugs as we know can tell the season. This could help to determine if he kept them alive for a period of time or killed immediately. Dirt and bugs can help with locations. The burlap probably was a treasure trove of evidence. Law enforcement has been mum on almost everything except strangulation and the belt.
Does anyone know if any of the GB4 had personal articles of clothing found with them? One of the other victims had some jewelry (maybe the victim with the child but I'm not sure) I never not found any mention of jewelry from GB4 friends or family members. IMO if SG had not gone missing, the others would not have been found until something else happened. The killing field would likely be larger.
 
Thank you for your vote of confidence DrQ!

Unidentified Asian Male's time of death was estimated to be 2006 which would be toward the beginning of the GB4 time frame. The cause of death of Unidentified Asian Male was reported as blunt force trauma to the head. It is my opinion that Unsub picked up Unidentified Asian Male believing him to be a female, and when Unsub discovered he was duped he went into a rage and savagely beat Unidentified Asian Male to death.

Of the victims that are not grouped in the GB4, and with the exception of Baby Doe, they were murdered years before the GB4 time frame and were all dismembered. Two of those victims were discovered to have remains located not only along Ocean Parkway, but also near Halsey Manor Road in Manorville, near the home of John Bittrolff, who in 2017 had been convicted of murdering two prostitutes in the early to mid 1990's, and sentenced to two consecutive 25 year to life sentences. I believe Unsub murdered the GB4, but not any of the other victims.

Amber Lynn Costello was 27 in 2010, and it doesn't seem to me that it would be easy for someone too much younger than her to relate to her on a personal level, and I feel Unsub was able to relate to her on a personal level. My guess is that he was in his mid 30's when during the time frame.

To me it seems that the GB4 were crimes of rage. The murders happened very quickly in the moment. Though Unsub methodically disposed of the victim's bodies, I don't believe he planned that he was going to kill them when he picked them up, he did so in the spur of the moment, after he was triggered and became uncontrollably enraged.

I cannot confirm this but may have read that the GB4 were found in the nude, whereas the other victims were found clothed, and in some cases with jewelry. I'm not sure if any of the GB4 were found with any personal items or jewelry.

After the investigation into the case of Shannan Gilbert began to expand in the summer of 2010, both Megan Waterman and Amber Lynn Costello were murdered during the same time, Megan Waterman in early June and Amber Lynn Costello in early September. Though I don't believe Shannan Gilbert was murdered by Unsub, I agree her case caused him to adapt his modus operandi. The killing field is probably larger, but Unsub had to dispose of the bodies of his victims in a different location, because of the increased law enforcement activity in the area of Ocean Parkway. I suspect that he moved his "burial ground" to another area near the water, or someplace Unsub would consider peaceful.
 
While researching calls Unsub made to Melissa Barthelemy’s younger sister, I’ve found several references indicating Unsub had also contacted her boyfriend Johnny Terry, a.k.a “Blaze”, up to 30 times in 8 months and threatened to kill him. Does anyone have any links that may provide more details about these phone calls, or information “Blaze” may have given regarding her disappearance?
 
I vaguely remember something on the boyfriend getting calls and also one of the friends that traveled with one of the GB4 getting calls. Unfortunately, I am not able to verify this information. I plan to listen to the many podcasts on LISK. Goodness knows I have to do SOMETHING while I row and look at walls.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
114
Guests online
489
Total visitors
603

Forum statistics

Threads
607,674
Messages
18,226,883
Members
234,198
Latest member
psychesleuth
Back
Top