Gilgo Beach 4 Only (GB4)

[DrQ]

IMO it would be great if LISK was caught. A lot may depend on how "open" the case still is. Also, it may depend on what agencies are actively involved. One never knows, a great podcaster, investigative journalists, and maybe even WS may turn the tables in the future. I tend to be more of a silver lining person vs half full glass.

 

[Bose]

It has always struck/bothered me that all the Gilgo Beach victims were found on the westbound or bay side of the road. Maybe others just haven't been found on the beach side or maybe there is not enough cover on the eastbound side. But why only on one side? I had imagined a person driving a certain distance from the causeway and disposing of the victims before making a u turn and returning to the "mainland." Perhaps the pattern indicates that the perpetrator was only going in one direction, i.e. Queens (a borough which has been mentioned several times as having a connection to the case).

Great post, good thoughts to ponder. IMO, westbound/bay side of the road, from what I can remember, would be the quickest logical area/place to dump (possibly) after coming off the Robert Moses Causeway, going westbound.

The bramble on the westbound side was a little thicker, I believe, and closer to the roadway--or, at least in memory, that's what I remember. I remember the westbound side seeming to be more "narrow" and less open. The eastbound side always seemed to feel more open to me, and a little more of a road shoulder/grassy area before the bramble. I think there are places to make U-Turns on the road to head back to the mainland (locals, correct me if I'm wrong).

Upsetting to say, but from my memory, maybe would have had to go a longer way with a body transferred from a vehicle to put in the bramble on the eastbound side.

Could be that this person/persons were on the way to Queens, or other boroughs, or could be that they simply circled around, using the Jones Beach Causeway (?) and lived on Long Island. All conjecture.

 

[PreciousDust]

It has always struck/bothered me that all the Gilgo Beach victims were found on the westbound or bay side of the road.

Not sure if it's relevant, but on the ocean side there's all sorts of protected dunes, i.e. short fences designed to keep people off many areas of sand to prevent erosion. Then again, I've chased completely oblivious people from stomping around in those areas as well.

 

[White_Rabbit]

Ocean Parkway is convenient for anyone who commutes south shore Long Island. You can bypass all Southern State Parkway and Sunrise Highway Traffic between Bay Shore and Freeport, and Point Lookout, Lido Beach and Long Beach via Loop Parkway. It is almost deserted at night.

 

[DrQ]

IMO I am not from NY nor am I familiar with the LI area except for news and documentary coverage of LISK, and my own following of the case. However, it would seem likely that the person/persons would have an extensive knowledge of the area, the times of day/night that covert movement is least likely to be noticed, the ability to move around freely, and possibly a place to take an escort. It doesn't seem logical that the killer would pickup the escort, drive to LI and kill quickly or maybe not if there is a quite unknown place to take the victim. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe that anything definitive has been stated on length of time the killer may have spent with any victim. My only reference is from the phone call to the sister of one of the GB4. Since it was reported as a few calls, (imo) it is possible that the victim was still alive. We don't know what service was being requested. It may have been a high dollar overnight visit. These victims were life strugglers and that type of money could have been extremely important to them. Difficult times can cause someone to take a risk they normally would not have. Due to the different time frames and locations of all of the victims, it is definitely not clear if LISK is one or two people. The GB4 appear to have a connection by how they were hired, how they were reportedly killed, the burlap, the location of the victims, and the area. IMO it is as if they were put in that location to be seen by the killer when driving on the road. The other victims seemed more disposed of by being scattered but still connected. It's possible the person is well known in the area and blends well. There are many crisscrossing circumstances: MG missing, OB neighborhood, missing escorts and finding of body parts as early as 1996 (I believe that is accurate), the length of time the bodies were disposed of before being found, and most importantly the overall negative publicity of the investigation and implication of corruption in law enforcement. Like so may unsolved cases, the victims don't have the opportunity for justice nor do their families and friends.

 

[PillowofWinds]

It has always struck/bothered me that all the Gilgo Beach victims were found on the westbound or bay side of the road. Maybe others just haven't been found on the beach side or maybe there is not enough cover on the eastbound side. But why only on one side? I had imagined a person driving a certain distance from the causeway and disposing of the victims before making a u turn and returning to the "mainland." Perhaps the pattern indicates that the perpetrator was only going in one direction, i.e. Queens (a borough which has been mentioned several times as having a connection to the case).

I often wonder, WHY THERE? Here is a link to google maps. If you look closely, there is only one way in to Oak Beach residences (the roads that are gray on the map are in the gated part)...and one way out. When you exit, you are going eastbound and before you get to the Causeway, (we say "by the pencil"), there is a turnaround to go west.

So to end up where the victims were found you would either have to pass Oak Beach, come out of the OB community, come from the RM Causeway, Captree (Boat Basin/Park) or Robert Moses (which RM doesn't seem likely IMO). There are so many hidden places on the mainland in big parks. I always tend to think the victims were not transported too far, since at least 4 were in the same area it would be faster and less risky to travel too far. It is just such an odd place to choose. If they were coming from Queens, there are so many closer spots that are even more desolate. So it is my belief that the killer(s) have some sort of ties to the general area. And being that Oak Beach is pretty known for wild parties with drugs and prostitutes, I do always think it is connected. Yes, it is extremely desolate and dark there at night. Sometimes even during the day there's NO ONE around! So that would make it ideal in that way. But to my understanding, they were not too deep into the bramble, almost like they didn't care if the bodies were found. I even want to say it seems lazy and rushed.
It is also upsetting to wonder just how many have NOT been found.

I'm not 100% sure SG has the same murderer as the GB4, but I believe it is very likely. She was the only one found on the south side of Ocean Parkway, to my understanding. So she is different in that way. However, she is also different in that she almost escaped her situation. So if she was put there, not on her own, it would separate her from the others and make it look like she just ran and died from drowning or the the elements or whatever theory they have pushed.

 

[PillowofWinds]

Great post, good thoughts to ponder. IMO, westbound/bay side of the road, from what I can remember, would be the quickest logical area/place to dump (possibly) after coming off the Robert Moses Causeway, going westbound.

The bramble on the westbound side was a little thicker, I believe, and closer to the roadway--or, at least in memory, that's what I remember. I remember the westbound side seeming to be more "narrow" and less open. The eastbound side always seemed to feel more open to me, and a little more of a road shoulder/grassy area before the bramble. I think there are places to make U-Turns on the road to head back to the mainland (locals, correct me if I'm wrong).

Upsetting to say, but from my memory, maybe would have had to go a longer way with a body transferred from a vehicle to put in the bramble on the eastbound side.

Could be that this person/persons were on the way to Queens, or other boroughs, or could be that they simply circled around, using the Jones Beach Causeway (?) and lived on Long Island. All conjecture.

I think that is a great description of it. I could always take pics if you want.

 

[ListeningAndWatching]

I often wonder, WHY THERE? Here is a link to google maps. If you look closely, there is only one way in to Oak Beach residences (the roads that are gray on the map are in the gated part)...and one way out. When you exit, you are going eastbound and before you get to the Causeway, (we say "by the pencil"), there is a turnaround to go west.

So to end up where the victims were found you would either have to pass Oak Beach, come out of the OB community, come from the RM Causeway, Captree (Boat Basin/Park) or Robert Moses (which RM doesn't seem likely IMO). There are so many hidden places on the mainland in big parks. I always tend to think the victims were not transported too far, since at least 4 were in the same area it would be faster and less risky to travel too far. It is just such an odd place to choose. If they were coming from Queens, there are so many closer spots that are even more desolate. So it is my belief that the killer(s) have some sort of ties to the general area.

Good critical thinking and explanation of the terrain.

 

[PillowofWinds]

I forgot to add the link to the map, but I'm sure anyone can figure it out on their own lol
Google Maps

 

[White_Rabbit]

I think that if LISK were from OakBeach Gilgo Beach would be too close to home to dump the bodies there. LISK definitely had the victim’s trust to the extent that they would let their guard down for him, especially in the cases of Megan Waterman and Amber Lynn Costello. LISK arrived to pick up Amber Lynn Costello approximately a half an hour after their last phone conversation. LISK drove to North Babylon presumably from home. If her body was dumped the north side of Ocean Parkway it’s possible LISK was on his way home, a half hour West of North Babylon on the extreme south shore of Long Island.

LISK would have to be near the same age as the victims, good looking and charming enough to maneuver around their natural defenses.

There was another serial killer using the same area as LISK to dump his victims bodies. I believe that serial killer was John Bittrolff.

Shannon Gilbert is a separate case that coincidently became the catalyst that for the discovery of LISK and John Bittrolff’s victims.

 

[Superkitty Mom]

I have walked the Ocean Parkway near the site of the GB4 and noticed the denseness of the shrubbery. It is definitely not comparable to the eastbound side of the parkway. I see that there are places where there is a slope off the road and places where the brush is at the same level as the pavement. I also assume that the guard rail (or whatever you call the protective safety rail on the newer looking bike / walking path) is new and was not there when the GB4 were placed there meaning that the vehicle could have pulled up very close to the brush. I have wondered if the vehicle might have had some kind of government label - DEC or other - that would make its presence unremarkable. On a different note, I find it inconceivable that 3 associates of the victims were contacted via cell phone - MBB's friend, MB's sister, and SG's mother (the only identified caller - PH). That is absolutely insane to me and not something I have really heard of in other cases. What a flagrant display of gall.

 

[OnTheCase27]

On a different note, I find it inconceivable that 3 associates of the victims were contacted via cell phone - MBB's friend, MB's sister, and SG's mother (the only identified caller - PH). That is absolutely insane to me and not something I have really heard of in other cases. What a flagrant display of gall.

If memory serves me right it’s not as unusual as you would think. I believe one or two victims family members in the Zodiac killings may have also been contacted by the perpetrator. We know the unknown suspect in that case also contacted and taunted the police. Called in his own killings and sent encrypted messages to local papers. My own thoughts on this are the killers are trying relive what they did by contacting family members so they can chase that original high they felt while killing the victim. Among addicts it’s a well known term chasing the high. It simply means you are trying to feel as good as you did the very first time you tried a drug. I believe some serial killers are chasing the high by contacting family members, taunting police and having control of information.

 

[ListeningAndWatching]

Shannon Gilbert is a separate case that coincidently became the catalyst that for the discovery of LISK and John Bittrolff’s victims.

The Gilbert case is no coincidence. Catalyst yes, coincidence no. According to Vernon Geberth (seasoned homicide investigator, forensic consultant, author of Practical Homicide Investigation) there were too many factors of similarity to the other cases that fit the profile. Won’t be following any white rabbits down that hole.

 

[Superkitty Mom]

If memory serves me right it’s not as unusual as you would think. I believe one or two victims family members in the Zodiac killings may have also been contacted by the perpetrator. We know the unknown suspect in that case also contacted and taunted the police. Called in his own killings and sent encrypted messages to local papers. My own thoughts on this are the killers are trying relive what they did by contacting family members so they can chase that original high they felt while killing the victim. Among addicts it’s a well known term chasing the high. It simply means you are trying to feel as good as you did the very first time you tried a drug. I believe some serial killers are chasing the high by contacting family members, taunting police and having control of information.

If memory serves me right it’s not as unusual as you would think. I believe one or two victims family members in the Zodiac killings may have also been contacted by the perpetrator. We know the unknown suspect in that case also contacted and taunted the police. Called in his own killings and sent encrypted messages to local papers. My own thoughts on this are the killers are trying relive what they did by contacting family members so they can chase that original high they felt while killing the victim. Among addicts it’s a well known term chasing the high. It simply means you are trying to feel as good as you did the very first time you tried a drug. I believe some serial killers are chasing the high by contacting family members, taunting police and having control of information.

I’m wondering then if PH should have been looked at more closely. Just saw a doc about a serial killer in Toronto who was killing gay men. They caught up with him but the police were later criticized for not thoroughly investigating his background as he had already been spoken to by LE.

 

[White_Rabbit]

The Gilbert case is no coincidence. Catalyst yes, coincidence no. According to Vernon Geberth (seasoned homicide investigator, forensic consultant, author of Practical Homicide Investigation) there were too many factors of similarity to the other cases that fit the profile. Won’t be following any white rabbits down that hole.

Let’s think about it for a moment.

With regard to all of the victims (excluding Baby Doe) some similar factors are as follows:

1) The victims were similar in age
2) The victims were all sex workers
3) The victims bodies were all dumped in the vicinity of Ocean Parkway

The Gilgo Beach 4 were killed by Unsub. The time frame matches and the modus operandi is identical.

In each case the killer came to the victim. The victims did not have their own driver, and instead rode with the killer in his vehicle. This is not the case with Shannan Gilbert. We know that she was driven to Oak Beach by her own personal driver, who she hired for the purpose, to the customer’s house. There is no theory that she was familiar with the customer before that evening, she did not leave her cell phone behind.

Unidentified Asian Male is killed by Unsub. The cause of death is blunt force trauma to the head.

Jessica Taylor, Valerie Mack, Jane Doe No. 7, Baby Doe were killed by John Bitrolff. The modus operandi is identical and the links to Manorville fit.

Though the cases of the GB4, Shannan Gilbert and the rest of the victims appear similar, as you look deeper you begin to notice the differences in circumstances.

 

[SecretAgentMan]

Let’s think about it for a moment.

With regard to all of the victims (excluding Baby Doe) some similar factors are as follows:

1) The victims were similar in age
2) The victims were all sex workers
3) The victims bodies were all dumped in the vicinity of Ocean Parkway

The Gilgo Beach 4 were killed by Unsub. The time frame matches and the modus operandi is identical.

In each case the killer came to the victim. The victims did not have their own driver, and instead rode with the killer in his vehicle. This is not the case with Shannan Gilbert. We know that she was driven to Oak Beach by her own personal driver, who she hired for the purpose, to the customer’s house. There is no theory that she was familiar with the customer before that evening, she did not leave her cell phone behind.

Unidentified Asian Male is killed by Unsub. The cause of death is blunt force trauma to the head.

Jessica Taylor, Valerie Mack, Jane Doe No. 7, Baby Doe were killed by John Bitrolff. The modus operandi is identical and the links to Manorville fit.

Though the cases of the GB4, Shannan Gilbert and the rest of the victims appear similar, as you look deeper you begin to notice the differences in circumstances.

This makes sense to me. In 2000. the torso of Valerie Mack was dumped in a wooded area near Halsey Manor Road in Manorville. Two and a half years later, he also left Jessica Taylor's torso on a pile of wood scrap off Halsey Manor Road.

The two dump sites were just half a mile away from each other. Both of the women dismembered remains were found in an area that is only 3-4 miles away from John Bittrolff's house.

One of these dump sites was on an isolated access road that is off the beaten track. This suggests that the killer has an intimate knowledge of the Manorville area.

In 2011, the police uncovered Taylor and Mack's skulls on Ocean Parkway - close to where the killer dumped the Gilgo Four in a set of burlap sacks.

So is the conclusion there are two serial killers using the same dumping ground in Gilgo....possibly. Could Bittrolff be responsible for all these murders?

From what ive read, the detectives say Bittrolff was on to them from the start after they received a hit on his DNA & started to follow him around using a fake company plumbers van hoping he would discard something they could use for DNA testing.

They stated he never threw out anything in the garbage that had used at home or in his truck....they also stated he was a beer drinker & had a lot of bottles but never threw any out, so Bittrolff definitely knew about forensic science & how advanced it had come.

As far as was he the killer using burner phones, VPN with internet & able to entice the GB4 into his web, we may never know. If he had the knowledge of updated forensic science in 2014, then he may have had the knowledge of not leaving a trace on cell phones & the internet.

He obviously didnt know about the future of DNA back in the early to mid 1990's, hence leaving his DNA on Tangredi and McNamee.


Also, imo, Shannan Gilberts death wasnt at the hands of any serial killer.

 

[Superkitty Mom]

I'm new to WS. Forgive me if this is old news. In the 1st episode of TKS there is a blurred pic of JF standing in his kitchen (I presume). The fridge in back of him has a large "H" displayed. Any thoughts of linking this to the belt initials?

Maybe JF is posing in the home of PH…

 

[White_Rabbit]

This makes sense to me. In 2000. the torso of Valerie Mack was dumped in a wooded area near Halsey Manor Road in Manorville. Two and a half years later, he also left Jessica Taylor's torso on a pile of wood scrap off Halsey Manor Road.

The two dump sites were just half a mile away from each other. Both of the women dismembered remains were found in an area that is only 3-4 miles away from John Bittrolff's house.

One of these dump sites was on an isolated access road that is off the beaten track. This suggests that the killer has an intimate knowledge of the Manorville area.

In 2011, the police uncovered Taylor and Mack's skulls on Ocean Parkway - close to where the killer dumped the Gilgo Four in a set of burlap sacks.

So is the conclusion there are two serial killers using the same dumping ground in Gilgo....possibly. Could Bittrolff be responsible for all these murders?

From what ive read, the detectives say Bittrolff was on to them from the start after they received a hit on his DNA & started to follow him around using a fake company plumbers van hoping he would discard something they could use for DNA testing.

They stated he never threw out anything in the garbage that had used at home or in his truck....they also stated he was a beer drinker & had a lot of bottles but never threw any out, so Bittrolff definitely knew about forensic science & how advanced it had come.

As far as was he the killer using burner phones, VPN with internet & able to entice the GB4 into his web, we may never know. If he had the knowledge of updated forensic science in 2014, then he may have had the knowledge of not leaving a trace on cell phones & the internet.

He obviously didnt know about the future of DNA back in the early to mid 1990's, hence leaving his DNA on Tangredi and McNamee.


Also, imo, Shannan Gilberts death wasnt at the hands of any serial killer.

I agree with you that Shannan Gilbert was not the victim of a serial killer.

I’ve thought about John Bittrolff being responsible for all of the murders other than Shannan Gilbert, but now believe that the GB4 and Unidentified Asian male were killed by another person, Unsub.

a) the time frame
b) the modus operandi
c) the phone calls to Amanda Barthelemy

Fire Island Jane Doe, Peaches, Baby Doe, Valerie Mack, Jessica Taylor were an earlier and more random time frame. Fire Island Jane Doe 1996, Peaches and Baby Doe 1997, Valerie Mack 2000, Jessica Taylor 2003.

The GB4 and Unidentified Asian Male were a later and more patterned time frame. Unidentified Asian Male 2006, Maureen Brainard-Barnes 2007, Melissa Barthelemy 2009, Megan Waterman 2010, Amber Lynn Costello 2010.

Fire Island Jane Doe, Peaches, Valerie Mack and Jessica Taylor were all dismembered. Valerie Mack's and Jessica Taylor's remains were discovered in both Manorville and along Ocean Parkway.

The GB4 were all strangled and their bodies were all wrapped in burlap bags and placed in a similar fashion almost evenly spaced along a specific section of Ocean Parkway.

It might be safe to say that the person who killed Melissa Barthelemy was also responsible for killing all of the other GB4 victims. This person called Amanda Barthelemy from her sister's phone.

If it had been John Bittrolff could not have Amanda Barthelemy identified his voice after he was arrested?

If John Bittrolff was so careful regarding DNA and as to dismembering his victims leaving their remains in separate locations, would he be careless enough to contact the victim's sister, possibly allowing his voice to be identified?

I believe had Unidentified Asian Male had been a female that he would have been killed and disposed of in the same manner as the other GB4 victims. His estimated year of death was 2006, which fits into the beginning of the GB4 time frame. Based on the psychological profile of Unsub, I believe that Unidentified Asian Male was beaten to death by Unsub during a fit of rage, after Unsub learned that he had been duped by a transvestite.

 

[Bose]

IMO I am not from NY nor am I familiar with the LI area except for news and documentary coverage of LISK, and my own following of the case. However, it would seem likely that the person/persons would have an extensive knowledge of the area, the times of day/night that covert movement is least likely to be noticed, the ability to move around freely, and possibly a place to take an escort. It doesn't seem logical that the killer would pickup the escort, drive to LI and kill quickly or maybe not if there is a quite unknown place to take the victim. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe that anything definitive has been stated on length of time the killer may have spent with any victim. My only reference is from the phone call to the sister of one of the GB4. Since it was reported as a few calls, (imo) it is possible that the victim was still alive. We don't know what service was being requested. It may have been a high dollar overnight visit. These victims were life strugglers and that type of money could have been extremely important to them. Difficult times can cause someone to take a risk they normally would not have. Due to the different time frames and locations of all of the victims, it is definitely not clear if LISK is one or two people. The GB4 appear to have a connection by how they were hired, how they were reportedly killed, the burlap, the location of the victims, and the area. IMO it is as if they were put in that location to be seen by the killer when driving on the road. The other victims seemed more disposed of by being scattered but still connected. It's possible the person is well known in the area and blends well. There are many crisscrossing circumstances: MG missing, OB neighborhood, missing escorts and finding of body parts as early as 1996 (I believe that is accurate), the length of time the bodies were disposed of before being found, and most importantly the overall negative publicity of the investigation and implication of corruption in law enforcement. Like so may unsolved cases, the victims don't have the opportunity for justice nor do their families and friends.

When I called SCPD several months ago, and mentioned that I had timeline information re: MB, the night she was abducted, I believe I said, "the night she was killed." The SCPD person was quick to tell me, "we never said, it was never confirmed, when she died." Because of that, I presumed they made that statement because of calls AB received; or some other information we don't know.

If it's based solely on what the perp said to AB on the phone, I don't think the statement was true. I think perp was being an (insert expletive word of choice), had already committed the deed, and was just extending the torment toward a satisfying crescendo for him. That's just me. Unless SCPD information we don't have, I don't see any reason why LISK would not kill/torture fairly quickly, and then dump in that area, perhaps move/stage the bodies closer together, later. There are plenty of parking lots off the side of Ocean Parkway, where it's dark. IMO.

 

[White_Rabbit]

When I called SCPD several months ago, and mentioned that I had timeline information re: MB, the night she was abducted, I believe I said, "the night she was killed." The SCPD person was quick to tell me, "we never said, it was never confirmed, when she died." Because of that, I presumed they made that statement because of calls AB received; or some other information we don't know.

If it's based solely on what the perp said to AB on the phone, I don't think the statement was true. I think perp was being an (insert expletive word of choice), had already committed the deed, and was just extending the torment toward a satisfying crescendo for him. That's just me. Unless SCPD information we don't have, I don't see any reason why LISK would not kill/torture fairly quickly, and then dump in that area, perhaps move/stage the bodies closer together, later. There are plenty of parking lots off the side of Ocean Parkway, where it's dark. IMO.

I am in agreement with you that Unsub had already murdered Melissa Barthelemy prior to making the calls to Amanda.

I’ve thought a lot about the purpose of the calls to Amanda.

I’m not sure that the purpose is necessarily Unsub trying to relive or enhance the crime,

It may be that in his distorted way of thinking, he believes he is trying to help these girls.

He thinks that he is trying to save them from being what he calls “*advertiser censored*”, and when he loses patience his explosive rage causes a violent attack.

He may have been trying to terrorize Amanda away from the lifestyle her sister was engaged in.