Gilgo Beach LISK Serial Killer, Rex Heuermann, charged with 6 murders, July 2023 #15

[wcasewatch]

If it were easy to list untrue assertions by John Ray, you would have already done so, right?

MOO

I previously did, but a mod removed the conversation for being off topic.

Example: Ray once went live on air and claimed that Shannan may have had a neat hole drilled into her hyoid. He stated that the SC medical examiner didn't know what had caused the hole. This was false, as the medical examiner theorized that it had been caused by a relatively common cyst that often goes unnoticed. Michael Baden (who Ray hired), did not dispute this. In fact, Baden didn't even mention the small hole.

Two medical professionals saw nothing suspect about this hole, yet Ray ran with the theory that someone, for reasons unknown, had gone through the effort of drilling a hole into her hyoid.

Bizarre and irresponsible conspiracy peddling.

 

[wcasewatch]

Ray also claimed that a woman may have been involved because Baby Doe was wrapped in a blanket... yet another baseless claim.

 

[Ruminations]

BTK broke into other people's homes. The vast majority of Ridgway's occurred while he was divorced.

Not really the same thing as Heuermann, who is believed to have killed his victims inside his home while he was married w/ kids.

Hansen kidnapped a surviving victim named Cindy Paulson and brought her back to his house while his family were out of town. This was made clear from the start.

Regardless of the above, I feel as though people are missing the point with this. Heuermann killing while his family were out of town is a pattern that will likely be highlighted in court. It is part of a larger puzzle. It is not just a case of "clearing" the family. They want to show that there were a number of similarities between this series of murders.

I also don't see a problem with a DA being forthcoming with the facts. I thought that everyone here liked clarity? Didn't this case suffer from a lack of public information? Are we suddenly against the truth being revealed now that it doesn't line up with our preconceptions?

The thing is, while I do not believe there is any reason to think the family is involved in murder, I also think there is reason to believe that the AC trip during Maureen's disappearance is not true.

The preconception is that the family had to be out of town for every murder, and the truth is the Atlantic City trip is debunked.

When the DA is forcing a narrative, it does not feel like transparency. When a DA clears people it just feels weird. They don't do that.

MOO

 

[wcasewatch]

The thing is, while I do not believe there is any reason to think the family is involved in murder, I also think there is reason to believe that the AC trip during Maureen's disappearance is not true.

The preconception is that the family had to be out of town for every murder, and the truth is the Atlantic City trip is debunked.

When the DA is forcing a narrative, it does not feel like transparency. When a DA clears people it just feels weird. They don't do that.

MOO

Can you link me to where the AC trip was debunked? From what I remember, that was another one of John Ray's claims that wasn't backed up by any evidence.

 

[Ruminations]

Can you link me to where the AC trip was debunked? From what I remember, that was another one of John Ray's claims that wasn't backed up by any evidence.

Witnesses interviewed the hotel staff.

People said things claiming it can't be true, but they never said that it is not true. That in itself is bizarre.

Asa's own attorney could, if he wanted to, simply say Asa is certain that the DA's interpretation of the credit card statement is correct, but he has not. The DA could say his interpretation of the credit card statement is correct, but he has not.

Asa's attorney or the DA could have said "No comment," but they did not.

Instead, they deflected but did not deny what several witnesses observed: the hotel had Asa checked in different dates than the DA originally thought from the credit card statement. They spent so much energy attacking John Ray that it appeared to me they were very invested in thus tiny detail, and that the witnesses who interviewed the hotel employees were correct.

What does it matter? Does this make Rex less guilty? (Allegedly, so it seems?)

Besides, the amount my of time that Rex held victims alive and dead is not yet clear.

General note: There is a difference between facts and interpretations if what they mean. Baby Peaches was wrapped in a blanket is a fact. That this suggests a female is an interpretation.

That the AC check in dates were different from the way the DA read them is a fact. That the family was home for the murder is an interpretation.

The condition of Shannan's hyoid bone is a fact. How things such as that the horns are missing are interpretations.

I asked for factual errors by John Ray. We won't find them.

MOO

 

[snarast]

Witnesses interviewed the hotel staff.

People said things claiming it can't be true, but they never said that it is not true. That in itself is bizarre.

Asa's own attorney could, if he wanted to, simply say Asa is certain that the DA's interpretation of the credit card statement is correct, but he has not. The DA could say his interpretation of the credit card statement is correct, but he has not.

Asa's attorney or the DA could have said "No comment," but they did not.

Instead, they deflected but did not deny what several witnesses observed: the hotel had Asa checked in different dates than the DA originally thought from the credit card statement. They spent so much energy attacking John Ray that it appeared to me they were very invested in thus tiny detail, and that the witnesses who interviewed the hotel employees were correct.

What does it matter? Does this make Rex less guilty? (Allegedly, so it seems?)

Besides, the amount my of time that Rex held victims alive and dead is not yet clear.

General note: There is a difference between facts and interpretations if what they mean. Baby Peaches was wrapped in a blanket is a fact. That this suggests a female is an interpretation.

That the AC check in dates were different from the way the DA read them is a fact. That the family was home for the murder is an interpretation.

The condition of Shannan's hyoid bone is a fact. How things such as that the horns are missing are interpretations.

I asked for factual errors by John Ray. We won't find them.

MOO

Still, you can’t blame ppl for not seeing that - it’s not like he works on having a low pulse affect. I can see how he rubs ppl the wrong way - I’m sure JR is acutely aware of that.

Sometimes there’s method to perceived madness.

 

[Passeridae]

Edited to add, and I hesitated because it's too pedantic, if they didn't need DNA back for the first 3, they didn't need it for Maureen. Sorry if that's too obvious,

They had DNA for the first three. That's why they charged him with their murders first. At that time, they did not have DNA yet for Maureen. That's why they didn't charge him with her murder when they charged him with Megan, Amber and Melissa's murder.

 

[Romans12]

BTK broke into other people's homes. The vast majority of Ridgway's occurred while he was divorced.

Not really the same thing as Heuermann, who is believed to have killed his victims inside his home while he was married w/ kids.

Hansen kidnapped a surviving victim named Cindy Paulson and brought her back to his house while his family were out of town. This was made clear from the start.

Regardless of the above, I feel as though people are missing the point with this. Heuermann killing while his family were out of town is a pattern that will likely be highlighted in court. It is part of a larger puzzle. It is not just a case of "clearing" the family. They want to show that there were a number of similarities between this series of murders.

I also don't see a problem with a DA being forthcoming with the facts. I thought that everyone here liked clarity? Didn't this case suffer from a lack of public information? Are we suddenly against the truth being revealed now that it doesn't line up with our preconceptions?

The DA doth protest too me methinks.
Meanwhile back at the ranch..have you make a list of JR’s falsehoods?

 

[Romans12]

Can you provide me with a link that shows Rodney Harrison vetted Alison Poe's story? Because from what I remember, he merely stood beside Ray during the press conference and then encouraged people to come forward. And I believe that was in relation to the Karen Vergata story.

Ray has made all kinds of dubious claims that have never been proven. Very easy to list.

 

[wcasewatch]

Witnesses interviewed the hotel staff.

People said things claiming it can't be true, but they never said that it is not true. That in itself is bizarre.

Asa's own attorney could, if he wanted to, simply say Asa is certain that the DA's interpretation of the credit card statement is correct, but he has not. The DA could say his interpretation of the credit card statement is correct, but he has not.

Asa's attorney or the DA could have said "No comment," but they did not.

Instead, they deflected but did not deny what several witnesses observed: the hotel had Asa checked in different dates than the DA originally thought from the credit card statement. They spent so much energy attacking John Ray that it appeared to me they were very invested in thus tiny detail, and that the witnesses who interviewed the hotel employees were correct.

What does it matter? Does this make Rex less guilty? (Allegedly, so it seems?)

Besides, the amount my of time that Rex held victims alive and dead is not yet clear.

General note: There is a difference between facts and interpretations if what they mean. Baby Peaches was wrapped in a blanket is a fact. That this suggests a female is an interpretation.

That the AC check in dates were different from the way the DA read them is a fact. That the family was home for the murder is an interpretation.

The condition of Shannan's hyoid bone is a fact. How things such as that the horns are missing are interpretations.

I asked for factual errors by John Ray. We won't find them.

MOO

A night manager claimed that she checked in on July 17 instead of July 6. This manager has yet to come forward or sign an affidavit. The hotel has also failed to respond.

Credit card statements with a clear arrival date vs. the word of an unknown night manager who Ray allegedly contacted, but has yet to come forward.

Guess which one holds more weight?

Also, "interpretations" with no precedence or logical explanation are the same thing as factual errors. Otherwise, you could excuse any old nonsense with an appended "MOO" or "interpretation."

 

[wcasewatch]

I searched the transcript of that video for Alice Poe, Bittrolff and motel, but found nothing. Can you provide the timestamp where he says that he vetted Alice Poe's story?

 

[wcasewatch]

The DA doth protest too me methinks.
Meanwhile back at the ranch..have you make a list of JR’s falsehoods?

Don't defend the family: "I think it is telling that the DA hasn't defended them!"
Do defend the family: "The DA doth protest too much!"

People will jump through all kinds of mental hoops to justify their preconceptions.

Also, back at the ranch: See above.

 

[wcasewatch]

Can you link me to where the AC trip was debunked? From what I remember, that was another one of John Ray's claims that wasn't backed up by any evidence.

I think it's telling that no evidence has been provided thus far.

 

[snooptroop88]

They had DNA for the first three. That's why they charged him with their murders first. At that time, they did not have DNA yet for Maureen. That's why they didn't charge him with her murder when they charged him with Megan, Amber and Melissa's murder.

Will Tierney hold out for DNA on all cases they charge, meaning no charge for cases without DNA? My guess is probably yes, and let RH do his singing in prison, which is exactly what happened with Cottingham. It's horrifying to see how LE coaxes information out of these people with something as mundane as a pizza slice or a chocolate donut, but they do it. It's also horrifying to see how many similarities this guy has with Cottingham. Was watching a documentary about Cottingham yesterday, and they talked about a trophy room that Cottingham's wife was not permitted to enter. And Cottingham waved around large amounts of cash with sex workers, just like RH. When the smoke clears and the trial's over (many years from now, perhaps), I think they're going to come to the conclusion that RH definitely modeled himself in at least some respects after Cottingham, which is particularly terrifying in light that Cottingham had some very young victims early in his murderous "career." But in other respects, RH probably learned from Cottingham's mistakes, and am speculating there will be fewer trophies with RH. I don't think RH kept electronic devices as trophies; I think he kept them to ensure absolute control of their whereabouts-- forever, basically. Maybe those devices will reveal the identity of Peaches, her baby, and Asian Doe.

Am hoping for DNA with Peaches and charges for Valerie Mack and hopefully Peaches and her baby. Have heard many YouTubers commenting there has to be DNA with Peaches with that rubber container and so many items left with her.

And for the same reason that I think state may only pursue charges for crimes where they get DNA, the Asa "how much did she know" issue will continue to be dismissed by state and remain relegated to background noise, basically. They want him locked up forever. They don't want to move in any type of wild and/or largely unsupported direction and jeopardize the entire case against him. Is it a pattern that he killed when they were out of town? I'd say it's a pattern that he killed as often as possible, and differently when they were out of town. Pure speculation. I do continue to believe the hairs are normal transfer, but also continue to be curious about the AC hotel information from John Ray.

 

[Passeridae]

Will Tierney hold out for DNA on all cases they charge, meaning no charge for cases without DNA? My guess is probably yes, and let RH do his singing in prison, which is exactly what happened with Cottingham. It's horrifying to see how LE coaxes information out of these people with something as mundane as a pizza slice or a chocolate donut, but they do it. It's also horrifying to see how many similarities this guy has with Cottingham. Was watching a documentary about Cottingham yesterday, and they talked about a trophy room that Cottingham's wife was not permitted to enter. And Cottingham waved around large amounts of cash with sex workers, just like RH. When the smoke clears and the trial's over (many years from now, perhaps), I think they're going to come to the conclusion that RH definitely modeled himself in at least some respects after Cottingham, which is particularly terrifying in light that Cottingham had some very young victims early in his murderous "career." But in other respects, RH probably learned from Cottingham's mistakes, and am speculating there will be fewer trophies with RH. I don't think RH kept electronic devices as trophies; I think he kept them to ensure absolute control of their whereabouts-- forever, basically. Maybe those devices will reveal the identity of Peaches, her baby, and Asian Doe.

Am hoping for DNA with Peaches and charges for Valerie Mack and hopefully Peaches and her baby. Have heard many YouTubers commenting there has to be DNA with Peaches with that rubber container and so many items left with her.

And for the same reason that I think state may only pursue charges for crimes where they get DNA, the Asa "how much did she know" issue will continue to be dismissed by state and remain relegated to background noise, basically. They want him locked up forever. They don't want to move in any type of wild and/or largely unsupported direction and jeopardize the entire case against him. Is it a pattern that he killed when they were out of town? I'd say it's a pattern that he killed as often as possible, and differently when they were out of town. Pure speculation. I do continue to believe the hairs are normal transfer, but also continue to be curious about the AC hotel information from John Ray.

I think there are a lot of similarities between Heuermann and Cottingham. With Joel Rifkin, too, but he was happy to spill his guts where the other two aren't.

I do think that for now, at least, they are limiting charges to DNA evidence. They may name him as a suspect in other murders if he is convicted or perhaps even during the trial, but unless they can unlock, say, photos of his crimes or confessions on his hard drives, I don't see them charging him without DNA. This investigation has been played with too much mishandling for them to be anything but overly cautious at this point.

Which is I think a big part of why Tierney mentions his family's whereabouts during each murder. It establishes Heuermann's pattern, shows that the task force has actually been looking into whether he worked with his family or not (despite what some people think), and also lays the groundwork for them to be able to name him as a suspect in some crimes post-conviction even if they are unable to link him via DNA or other solid forensic evidence. Or, theoretically, rule him out (at least for the the moment) and have an explanation for why he wasn't looked at for a specific crime if he later confesses or evidence comes out connecting him.

They have to deal with the SCPD's past mistakes and mismanagement, and unfortunately that means doing extra work when it comes to transparency and explaining their process, both now and if they find reason to believe that they got something wrong in the future.

MOO, of course, like everyone else here.

 

[snarast]

I think there are a lot of similarities between Heuermann and Cottingham. With Joel Rifkin, too, but he was happy to spill his guts where the other two aren't.

I do think that for now, at least, they are limiting charges to DNA evidence. They may name him as a suspect in other murders if he is convicted or perhaps even during the trial, but unless they can unlock, say, photos of his crimes or confessions on his hard drives, I don't see them charging him without DNA. This investigation has been played with too much mishandling for them to be anything but overly cautious at this point.

Which is I think a big part of why Tierney mentions his family's whereabouts during each murder. It establishes Heuermann's pattern, shows that the task force has actually been looking into whether he worked with his family or not (despite what some people think), and also lays the groundwork for them to be able to name him as a suspect in some crimes post-conviction even if they are unable to link him via DNA or other solid forensic evidence. Or, theoretically, rule him out (at least for the the moment) and have an explanation for why he wasn't looked at for a specific crime if he later confesses or evidence comes out connecting him.

They have to deal with the SCPD's past mistakes and mismanagement, and unfortunately that means doing extra work when it comes to transparency and explaining their process, both now and if they find reason to believe that they got something wrong in the future.

MOO, of course, like everyone else here.

He is a chameleon, and unusually smart for an SK. He might require change in an unpredictable way in order to not get bored.

So his family being home just rules certain types of murders out, the ones where there is a lot of screaming and prolonged torture.

That’s not necessarily his only MO.

I just don’t think a strict MO is likely at all. He seems like an omnivore. Sans pizza crust.

 

[Passeridae]

He is a chameleon, and unusually smart for an SK. He might require change in an unpredictable way in order to not get bored.

So his family being home just rules certain types of murders out, the ones where there is a lot of screaming and prolonged torture.

That’s not necessarily his only MO.

I just don’t think a strict MO is likely at all. He seems like an omnivore. Sans pizza crust.

Oh, I absolutely agree with this, and personally I suspect that once he is convicted and his DNA is in the databases, he will be linked to some crimes that he wasn't seriously considered for because they are so wildly different from the ones they know he committed. But right now they need to build a case against him and get him convicted. The task force has made it pretty clear that they intend to try and close every case he has committed, but that takes time and resources, and right now the best use of that time and resources is to close as many cases as possible as quickly as possible, to get him convicted and his DNA in the database, and to bring closure to as many families as they can in the process.

I have no doubt in my mind that once they have his DNA in CODIS or crack his encrypted photos that they will find way more crimes and stuff they never suspected him of it even looked at him for (yet).

 

[whiterhino]

Oh, I absolutely agree with this, and personally I suspect that once he is convicted and his DNA is in the databases, he will be linked to some crimes that he wasn't seriously considered for because they are so wildly different from the ones they know he committed. But right now they need to build a case against him and get him convicted. The task force has made it pretty clear that they intend to try and close every case he has committed, but that takes time and resources, and right now the best use of that time and resources is to close as many cases as possible as quickly as possible, to get him convicted and his DNA in the database, and to bring closure to as many families as they can in the process.

I have no doubt in my mind that once they have his DNA in CODIS or crack his encrypted photos that they will find way more crimes and stuff they never suspected him of it even looked at him for (yet).

FWIW these posts have been reminding me of this: Found Deceased - AK - Kathleen Henry, 30, video of murder victim found, Anchorage, 9 Oct 2019 *Arrest*

In particular the hunting piece as well as the phone/computer activity. JMO.

 

[DS2021]

I wonder what the results of the vegas dna test(s) were

Murdered 20 years ago, Jodi Marie Brewer cold case gets second look

This week marks a grim milestone for the family of a young Las Vegas woman whose cold case murder is now being probed for a link to the Gilgo Beach murders in Long Island, New York.

www.ktnv.com

Las Vegas police to test Rex Heuermann’s DNA for possible connection to NJ mom’s murder

Victoria Camara, 17, was found dead outside of Las Vegas in August 2003.

nypost.com