Golf club or flashlight or....?

[OpenMind4U]

Just came back from visiting my grandchildren. The two youngest boys are 8 1/2 years old and 5 1/2 years old. Like I mention before, these boys are very active in sports kids (succer, wrestling). Today, they played on the backyard, running, kicking...rough games, as usual.

At on point, the oldest one has picked-up the youngest one and trough him over his right shoulder (like you would do with the sand bag) and carry him over the full length of the backyard...back and forth...I absolutely freezed, watching it! I asked my daughter, how heavy the boys are? And she replyed: 55 pounds and 50 pounds respectfully!!!

So, if JBR's head blow happens in the kitchen or dinning room (as Kolar's has suggested during the radio interviews w/Tricia and Boyler) then from now on nobody could convince me that BR was NOT capable to bring JBR to the basement by himself. Yes, he could!!! It's absolutely possible! I just saw how it could be done: over his right shoulder, JBR's head is hanging over BR back, BR is balancing the weight by holding JBR left leg....I couldn't wait to come home and share this experience with you...but before start typing, I took my AR copies, looking for abrasions on JBR LEFT leg....here it is, AR, page 4:

'On the posterior aspect of the left lower leg, almost in the midline, approximately 4 inches above the level of the heel are two small scratch-like abrasions which are dried and rust color. They measure 1/16" by less then 1/16" and 1/8" by less than 1/16" of an inch respectively'.

Looking forward to hear your thoughts on the above!!!

 

[otg]

(snipped)
Does it sound reasonable that perhaps BR was standing on a chair waiting for JB to walk thru a door and hit her from above? Just a question.
As I have read here and on FFJ it is of the opinion that the marks on her back where made from the train track. As for the bruising or abrasions found on her body; these could have been made after she as hit on the head. She was after all still alive at that point in time. JMO

Why would he have to be standing on a chair to deliver the blow? The position of the depressed fracture was not on the top of her head, it was in the back:

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[otg]

OpenMind4U,
(snipped and BBM)
Remember Coroner Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that there was both Sexual Contact and Digital Penetration.

Its just possible that the Sexual Contact represents the acute assault and the Digital Penetration is the staged element, e.g. source of the splinter of wood?
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Meyer used both terms, but he used other terms as well. I don't think he necessarily meant that they were two different things, because sexual contact and digital penetration are not necessarily two different things. Digital penetration is sexual contact, as would be insertion of a foreign object. What Meyer was trying to distinguish between (IIRC without looking it up) was the prior chronic sexual contact(s) and the acute sexual contact which he observed was consistent with digital penetration.
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[otg]

Flashlight, golf club. I don't know which it was. But we should keep in mind the reactions of John and Patsy to the flashlight and the golf clubs.

They claimed the flashlight wasn't theirs. Which would show they wanted no part of it and didn't want it to be associated with them in ownership.

Then again, John wanted his golf club (and the bag too) to go with him. He didn't want to leave home without it.

How do these reactions help us decide which weapon was used?

Or, could JonBenet had been wacked with something different - a trophy?

Boy, AZ, you are absolutely right on about seeing how they react to determine the importance of different things. But I don't think it necessarily tells us which object was used for the head blow. After all, as you note, look at how they reacted to the flashlight, and also how JR just had to have his golf clubs. But they also reacted to the bowl of pineapple, and we know it wasn't the weapon. But Patsy also denied knowledge of the baseball bat that was found outside which had fibers on it from the basement carpet (hello?).
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[txsvicki]

I'm another who thinks burke could have gotten jonbenet to the basement with maybe the mark on the chin, back of the ankle, and possibly a few marks on the neck and back of the shoulder. Unless he put her on something like a blanket you'd think there might be a few more finger bruise marks though, especially in getting her down the basement stairs.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I'm another who thinks burke could have gotten jonbenet to the basement with maybe the mark on the chin, back of the ankle, and possibly a few marks on the neck and back of the shoulder. Unless he put her on something like a blanket you'd think there might be a few more finger bruise marks though, especially in getting her down the basement stairs.

Agree! Bottom line: it is POSSIBLE for BR to take unconscious JBR to the basement by himself.

Again, this possibility could be used with the premises that JBR has received the head blow on the first floor. My first question for Kolar would be: 'Sir, you has stated that in your opinion the head blow happens in kitchen/dining room: is it based on unknown to us evidence and if yes - can you share it with us?'.

 

[Flatlander]

Why would he have to be standing on a chair to deliver the blow? The position of the depressed fracture was not on the top of her head, it was in the back:

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Maybe, just maybe she didn't see him or the head blow coming. I don't think it impossible to hit somebody on the back (top) of the skull if they were standing on a chair. You are most likely correct in your assumption. This is something that I have always simly seen (minds eye) concerning the blow and the room being green; that's all. I know sounds strange and yep it is. Sort of like depending of the gut. Like I said I am sure you are probably right.

 

[txsvicki]

Another possibility not mentioned: could paysy have found jonbenet unconscious in the kitchen, gotten her into the/or A blanket, then had burke help her move into the basement? She could have pulled up the ends and carried the head portion and burke the feet? Later, she could have decided that she needed to be in her own blanket when found in the cellar room. It's suspected that she knew of molestation and kept it secret, and he seems to know about the death and kept it secret, so not impossible that he could have helped to a point.

 

[otg]

I do hope that BPD has better knowledge/clue which weapon could cause such an injury. We can only speculate based on what we know and our common sense...When I started this thread, it wasn't my goal to disregard golf club, or flashlight, or baseball bat, or any other means. I simply wanted to expand the possibilities by introducing the 'head kicking' as the mechanics of such an injury and discuss if it has any 'common sense' behind.

IMO, whatever 'tool' was used it shouldn't have the rough hard edge (like golf club has) because if used - it would damage the skin as well, resulting in heavy bleeding (which JBR doesn't have it). So, I always look for some other explanation in which the possible weapon would have the heavy 'round edge', like hammer, knob or baseball bat. IMO, the flashlight is not durable enough and would sustain considerable amount of damages in the process (dent on the metal frame, or broken glass). And of course, it should leave the 'oval'-shape imprint when used.

Unfortunately, OM4U, I don’t think the BPD do know what was used to cause the skull fracture. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be hearing all the disagreement on what it might be from people who have left the investigation, or who were privy to inside information. If they can’t agree based on all the information they have and the opinions of experts who were able to see all the evidence, we shouldn’t expect that we with out limited information can determine with any certainty what object might actually have been used. All we can do is speculate. And the shoe is one more possibility. Thank you for pointing it out.
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[otg]

I still don't understand how jonbenet wasn't injured with bruising or abrasions on her body when hit in the head unless she was laying on a pillow, reclining on a chair, or someone had hold of her if she was standing. Even if she were crouched down it seems like she would have been knocked over and at least bruised.

Just a suggestion... Perhaps the cord that was tied around her neck in play kept her from falling all the way to the floor when she was hit over the head?
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[otg]

But, this has always stuck out to me. Does it look like the Ramsey's even sleep in their bed? Surely PR wouldn't have bothered to make it. She didn't have time. Anybody else notice this in the crime scene photos?

Wait a minute! Did BR have two beds, like JonBenet? I realize that it looks like a twin-sized bed, so did he have two of them in his room? Anyone know? Anyone.... Anyone?

​

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[OpenMind4U]

Unfortunately, OM4U, I don’t think the BPD do know what was used to cause the skull fracture. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be hearing all the disagreement on what it might be from people who have left the investigation, or who were privy to inside information. If they can’t agree based on all the information they have and the opinions of experts who were able to see all the evidence, we shouldn’t expect that we with out limited information can determine with any certainty what object might actually have been used. All we can do is speculate. And the shoe is one more possibility. Thank you for pointing it out.
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As usual, you're correct...I didn't see much 'exploration' from BPD besides mentioning about the flashlight, gold clubs and baseball bat (PMPT, ST, Kolar, Ramsey's interviews). Looks to me that this aspect of the crime (head blow)wasn't broadly analysed. At least, not in such a details as you and 'cynic' have done. So, thank you as well for expending our knowledge.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Wait a minute! Did BR have two beds, like JonBenet? I realize that it looks like a twin-sized bed, so did he have two of them in his room? Anyone know? Anyone.... Anyone?

​

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otg, no, Burke's bedroom has only ONE bed...however, next to his bedroom (side by side) is another bedroom who has TWO beds. Kolar's book provides an excellent floor plans including the furniture positioning. See page 463.

 

[dodie20]

Unfortunately, OM4U, I don’t think the BPD do know what was used to cause the skull fracture. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be hearing all the disagreement on what it might be from people who have left the investigation, or who were privy to inside information. If they can’t agree based on all the information they have and the opinions of experts who were able to see all the evidence, we shouldn’t expect that we with out limited information can determine with any certainty what object might actually have been used. All we can do is speculate. And the shoe is one more possibility. Thank you for pointing it out.
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What you said about BPD is so true. I've wondered if they have more information, but at the same time, their theories are so contradictory that it's like they're just guessing. For instance, the bedwetting theory. What actual evidence from that night backs up this theory? Is there something we haven't heard? I'm not so sure anymore, because of the smeared chocolates . Why wasn't this information added to this theory? because IMO, it should be considered. Did the investigators even know, or did they find out, when they read the book? Or was the information theorized on 'privately', but publicly, was lumped in with bedwetting?

 

[otg]

otg, no, Burke's bedroom has only ONE bed...however, next to his bedroom (side by side) is another bedroom who has TWO beds. Kolar's book provides an excellent floor plans including the furniture positioning. See page 463.

So is this the bed that Burke was sleeping in all morning while all hell was breaking loose downstairs? The bed that belonged to Burke and was photographed on the day his sister's dead body was discovered? The bed he slept in all night, until he was woke up to hurry out past the police, neighbors, and family friends gathered throughout the house without asking anyone what was going on?

Well, all I can is that despite all the other problems he had, and despite the lack of parental teaching and nurturing that might have gone on or not gone on.... At least Patsy taught him to make up his bed when he got up -- no matter what else might be going on.
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[OpenMind4U]

otg, no, Burke's bedroom has only ONE bed...however, next to his bedroom (side by side) is another bedroom who has TWO beds. Kolar's book provides an excellent floor plans including the furniture positioning. See page 463.

...and as lond as we're talking about bedrooms, as you can see from Kolar's book, the Burke's bedroom does NOT have window. Remember JR remark that he took binocular to watch the street from Burke's window? Well, it wasn't accurate. JR could not be at Burke's bedroom because this particular bedroom has no widows! However, the next to Burke bedroom - is another bedroom with the windows. Which makes me even more suspicious: why both Ramseys, after finding RN, never went to another bedroom to check?...they just opened the door to Burke's bedroom...but they wouldn't see another bedroom because it's hidden from the view...what kind of parents wouldn't check ALL the bedrooms/rooms prior calling 911?!!!

 

[OpenMind4U]

So is this the bed that Burke was sleeping in all morning while all hell was breaking loose downstairs? The bed that belonged to Burke and was photographed on the day his sister's dead body was discovered? The bed he slept in all night, until he was woke up to hurry out past the police, neighbors, and family friends gathered throughout the house without asking anyone what was going on?

Well, all I can is that despite all the other problems he had, and despite the lack of parental teaching and nurturing that might have gone on or not gone on.... At least Patsy taught him to make up his bed when he got up -- no matter what else might be going on.
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LOL...no, this is not his bed on the picture you've attached. Please look carefully on surrounding of this room. This blue covered bed is one of the two beds in 'joint' bedroom. You'll see the closet door on right side; and two other doors (entrance door and closet doors) on front of you, on left side...matching Kolar's drawing perfectly!...JMO

 

[OpenMind4U]

So is this the bed that Burke was sleeping in all morning while all hell was breaking loose downstairs? The bed that belonged to Burke and was photographed on the day his sister's dead body was discovered? The bed he slept in all night, until he was woke up to hurry out past the police, neighbors, and family friends gathered throughout the house without asking anyone what was going on?

Well, all I can is that despite all the other problems he had, and despite the lack of parental teaching and nurturing that might have gone on or not gone on.... At least Patsy taught him to make up his bed when he got up -- no matter what else might be going on.
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otg, now you made me think hard...which room of these two is REALLY Burke's room?!!! Let me investigate....maybe I'm wrong...:banghead:

 

[otg]

LOL...no, this is not his bed on the picture you've attached. Please look carefully on surrounding of this room. This blue covered bed is one of the two beds in 'joint' bedroom. You'll see the closet door on right side; and two other doors (entrance door and closet doors) on front of you, on left side...matching Kolar's drawing perfectly!...JMO

Okay, I'm not sure. Flatlander is the one who got me to looking at it in the post here ([ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8319960&postcount=43"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Golf club or flashlight or....?[/ame]). If you are correct, then ACR has it labeled wrong here.

:dunno:
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[OpenMind4U]

OOOOPS, I was wrong!!! Sorry...According to PMPT, the back room with 3 windows and two beds is Burke's bedroom...another 'joint' bedroom is JAR bedroom....sorry. otg, you was right, BR keeps his bed nitly done....