Grand Jury True Bills John & Patsy Discussion thread

[eileenhawkeye]

I'm surprised we haven't heard more about BR as he has gotten older. From high school friends, college friends etc. I think it'd gain a lot of interest, going to the same school as the brother from this infamous case. JMO

I think it's likely that his classmates have posted on the Internet about him, maybe under a news article or on a forum, but there is so much information about this case, it's hard to find.

 

[txsvicki]

I don't see how B did the strangling because fibers matching Patsy's clothes were in the garrotte, and she was in the same clothes from the night before. JonBenet was strangled and jabbed with something at the point of or just before death, after lying there about 90 minutes. There's no way to know that anyone really thought she was dead. Working backwards and using some of Linda Pugh's statements: blanket, knife, and panties with only Patsy knowing where they'd be
Patsy's art supply box handy and she knew all the location of stuff in the basement
Ransom note sounds like her and someone all pilled up or drinking
Linda Pugh speaking of delusions and personality changes
JonBenet or someone having poop on bed, in panties, on pants
JonBenet screaming when Patsy took her in bathroom
Patsy stripping the bed but never doing other chores
JonBenet starts wetting after Patsy gets better and grandparents leave
The strangling killed JonBenet

 

[bettybaby00]

When you looked at an obviously staged scene, or one involving undoing, it's difficult to discern which goes with which. It almost morphs into 3 crime scenes.

Vortex of insanity in that house, and the surrounding events raise serious questions about what was happening/happened. IA with the earlier post that JB is the only prosecutable person. The law under which BR can apparently hide for the rest of his life is crazy...if a child under 10 can't be named, charged or indicted, the court should at least be allowed to declare "the homicide committed by an adolescent, case closed."

That part of the law needs to be changed.

 

[lawstudent]

^I would think the police/DA could have closed the case stating that evidence indicated homicide by a child and was unprosecutable. They decided not to I guess. Being unable to charge a child with murder doesn't mean that they can't determine there was a killing by the child - murder is just a legal concept.

 

[barbados_blonde]

They did it before LE even had the thought of considering them as suspects. Who does that?

Frankly, smart people.

I've noticed a distressing trend for suspects/witnesses to be considered guilty because they take advantage of their right to legal counsel. It is never a good idea to participate in any sort of police questioning without legal counsel, and they were smart enough to get legal protection for all of their family members.

Always remember your rights.

 

[BOESP]

Frankly, smart people.

I've noticed a distressing trend for suspects/witnesses to be considered guilty because they take advantage of their right to legal counsel. It is never a good idea to participate in any sort of police questioning without legal counsel, and they were smart enough to get legal protection for all of their family members.

Always remember your rights.

The trouble is the Ramseys refused to talk to the police for four more months after they retained counsel. I find that unthinkable and unacceptable if the parents were innocent.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Seems incredibly negligent to me that CPS didn't remove Burke based on the "umbrella of suspicion". Who stopped them? It should have been standard operating procedure.

Why wasn't CPS notified when the grand jury indictment came down? Who made the decision not to report, as required by law?
Where was CPS in all of this?


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[Linda7NJ]

Frankly, smart people.

I've noticed a distressing trend for suspects/witnesses to be considered guilty because they take advantage of their right to legal counsel. It is never a good idea to participate in any sort of police questioning without legal counsel, and they were smart enough to get legal protection for all of their family members.

Always remember your rights.

If a parent lawyers up and refusing to talk to law enforcement....yeah, I'm going to think they have something to hide. There is nothing wrong with having a lawyer by your side as you're cooperating.


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[arielilane]

I don't see how B did the strangling because fibers matching Patsy's clothes were in the garrotte, and she was in the same clothes from the night before. JonBenet was strangled and jabbed with something at the point of or just before death, after lying there about 90 minutes. There's no way to know that anyone really thought she was dead. Working backwards and using some of Linda Pugh's statements: blanket, knife, and panties with only Patsy knowing where they'd be
Patsy's art supply box handy and she knew all the location of stuff in the basement
Ransom note sounds like her and someone all pilled up or drinking
Linda Pugh speaking of delusions and personality changes
JonBenet or someone having poop on bed, in panties, on pants
JonBenet screaming when Patsy took her in bathroom
Patsy stripping the bed but never doing other chores
JonBenet starts wetting after Patsy gets better and grandparents leave
The strangling killed JonBenet

Excellent facts you have stated:
"Fibers matching Patsy's clothes were in the garrotte, and she was in the same clothes from the night before."

 

[DeeDee249]

I read the autopsy report (as gut wrenching as it was); and I still believe John was the abuser. What object did he use? Flashlight?

Also, I believe he moved the body while the LE was there, I wonder if anything was disposed of. I mean, he did remove the duct tape.

It has been public for years that the coroner told police her injures were consistent with digital penetration. If you read the autopsy report and understood it, there is no way she could have been penetrated with a flashlight. But it is suspected that the flashlight found in the home may have been the bludgeon used to bash her on the head.

As for moving the body...there are limits to the possibility of that. Livor mortis begins within about 10 minutes of death and during the blanching (un-fixed) early stage, the body will show multiple patters if it has been moved. JB had only one pattern- indicating she was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, legs out straight, within minutes of her death. By the time the non-blanching (fixed) stage occurs, people are all over the house. I do think there is a possibility he moved her from deeper in the winecellar (where FW wasn't able to see her when he looked in the room) to a place closer to the doorway (where she was when JR "found" her). During this time, rigor mortis was forming, making it unlikely she was ever in any other position. The reason for this is that when a body in rigor is manipulated forcefully, the rigor will "break", un-freezing the joints. Once "broken" it will not re-form. JB was in FULL rigor when she was found, indicating she had been dead at least 12 hours.
Of course, if he did go into that room, he could certainly have removed things.

 

[ElleElle]

I just finished reading Chief Kolar's book, after reading some of the posts here I looked it up on Amazon......and found it in a KINDLE edition! It is an excellent read and some of the info on BR is positively chilling.

Thanks! I need some Fall/Winter bedtime reading material. :coffeeup:

 

[ElleElle]

I'm surprised we haven't heard more about BR as he has gotten older. From high school friends, college friends etc. I think it'd gain a lot of interest, going to the same school as the brother from this infamous case. JMO

He pretty much just seemed to live his Ivy league life.

I would like to know about his 1/2 brother. JAR

 

[liz b.]

Seems incredibly negligent to me that CPS didn't remove Burke based on the "umbrella of suspicion". Who stopped them? It should have been standard operating procedure.

Why wasn't CPS notified when the grand jury indictment came down? Who made the decision not to report, as required by law?
Where was CPS in all of this?


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There was a post which stated that DSHS knew about BR and his enurisis... I don't think the post went into any details, but it is very interesting, if true...jmo moo

 

[ElleElle]

Seems incredibly negligent to me that CPS didn't remove Burke based on the "umbrella of suspicion". Who stopped them? It should have been standard operating procedure.

Why wasn't CPS notified when the grand jury indictment came down? Who made the decision not to report, as required by law?
Where was CPS in all of this?


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BBM~ No one had reason to rat out the Ramsey's. Also, they lawyered up.

Unfortunately, we live in a society where money & power let's you get away with murder. :facepalm:

 

[AnaTeresa]

The trouble is the Ramseys refused to talk to the police for four more months after they retained counsel. I find that unthinkable and unacceptable if the parents were innocent.

Yeah, that's odd. In my job, we've had clients who have contacted lawyers early in an investigation that were innocent. For the most part, the lawyer talks to the cops first to get a feel for things, and then the client goes in to talk with investigators. We've even had a case where this occurred within a time span of mere days.

It's not lawyering up alone that gives me pause - it's the speed in which they did so and the absolute stonewalling afterward. That points more for something to hide.

 

[FrayedKnot]

He pretty much just seemed to live his Ivy league life.

I would like to know about his 1/2 brother. JAR

Is Perdue considered Ivy League? :waitasec:

 

[LinasK]

If a parent lawyers up and refusing to talk to law enforcement....yeah, I'm going to think they have something to hide. There is nothing wrong with having a lawyer by your side as you're cooperating.


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Agreed. I think only Guilty people lawyer up. Why lawyer up if you have nothing to hide??? I wouldn't! And my brother is a lawyer.

 

[ElleElle]

Is Perdue considered Ivy League? :waitasec:

What about High School? I'm sorry, I thought he went to a private school too?

 

[FrayedKnot]

What about High School? I'm sorry, I thought he went to a private school too?

I believe he did, too. But I think the Ivy League is restricted to only a handful of universities.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League"]Ivy League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[lawstudent]

Seems incredibly negligent to me that CPS didn't remove Burke based on the "umbrella of suspicion". Who stopped them? It should have been standard operating procedure.

Why wasn't CPS notified when the grand jury indictment came down? Who made the decision not to report, as required by law?
Where was CPS in all of this?


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Umbrella of suspicion isn't enough. I assume we'd know if they did, but CPS sometimes investigates in situations like this, but if Burke didn't say then was any abuse, then they are not going to remove him. Even accused pedophiles are usually allowed to live with their kids and just not have contact with other unrelated kids before their trial, unless it is their kid they are accused of molesting.