Grand Jury True Bills John & Patsy Discussion thread

[questfortrue]

Yeah, we actually have some debate over whether or not that is really Burke's FB. There is another one, that was confirmed to be him. The picture you just posted is from December 2006, and is available to the public. So Burke #2 made his profile picture one from '06? It's odd.

But...OMG...what if that Burke Ramsey is fake, and media outlets contact him on FB asking for a statement, and he gives one?!

Slightly off topic here, but since BDI is a frequent conclusion right now, I went back to look at this post of BR on his facebook page. (Post 129 on this thread) Having some background in graphic arts, this photo raised some questions for me. The first question is: Does anyone else think this photo has been "photoshopped"? The closeness of the bodies and the arm drape of BR's is unusual. Second question, if anyone has Photoshop and is accustomed to manipulating adjustments, particularly exposure adjustments, there appears to be an image in the dark background behind these two. I won't say any more about what I saw in the background, just wondered if anyone else could note anything in it.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Slightly off topic here, but since BDI is a frequent conclusion right now, I went back to look at this post of BR on his facebook page. (Post 129 on this thread) Having some background in graphic arts, this photo raised some questions for me. The first question is: Does anyone else think this photo has been "photoshopped"? The closeness of the bodies and the arm drape of BR's is unusual. Second question, if anyone has Photoshop and is accustomed to manipulating adjustments, particularly exposure adjustments, there appears to be an image in the dark background behind these two. I won't say any more about what I saw in the background, just wondered if anyone else could note anything in it.

On Burke's other FB, the picture is bigger and you can see that it says "BAR" behind them. There are other pictures from that event, and it looks like it was like...an indoor/small concert?

 

[Elley Mae]

Slightly off topic here, but since BDI is a frequent conclusion right now, I went back to look at this post of BR on his facebook page. (Post 129 on this thread) Having some background in graphic arts, this photo raised some questions for me. The first question is: Does anyone else think this photo has been "photoshopped"? The closeness of the bodies and the arm drape of BR's is unusual. Second question, if anyone has Photoshop and is accustomed to manipulating adjustments, particularly exposure adjustments, there appears to be an image in the dark background behind these two. I won't say any more about what I saw in the background, just wondered if anyone else could note anything in it.

i see it

 

[chlban]

Linda7NJ;9929994 I

must comment on this because IMO it's important and indicative of the kind of people the Ramsey's were. Patsy opened her home for Christmas tours and has a Christmas tree in every room. ... Yet every pair of JonBenet's panties were stained! That's just disgusting!

I was, by no means, as wealth of the Ramsey's in 1997, but when my son was potty training..,I threw away underwear that didn't come clean in the laundry. I toss socks that don't come clean & get holes. It's disgusting that underneath all the pretty .... Was a child wearing fecal stained panties ... Her drawers were filled with fecal stained panties too. Poor JonBenet, whose mother can't remember the last time she bathed.

It makes me sick.

Seems like I remember reading in one of the books (PM/PT?) that the Ramsey home was perfect where people could see, but that closets, drawers, rooms that were not routinely open to people outside the family were a mess.

That has always struck me as sort of a perfect example of the family. Looks perfect on the outside, a mess on the inside.

That is also not normal. As a bit of a neat freak myself I can confirm that the need to keep things orderly for real neat freaks is not dependent on whether or not someone sees it. If we see it, it matters. Patsy was obviously not a neat freak, stained clothing of any kind is unacceptable and fecal stains? I cannot even go there..............

Patsy was all about "appearances" and her family, IMO, were accessories.

 

[tezi]

Thank you SyraKelly! I, for some reason, do not feel incensed by the Op-Ed piece and I appreciate this comment by SG (BBM):

These documents mean that this grand jury believed there was "probable cause" (a lower threshold standard of proof than "beyond a reasonable doubt" ) based on the evidence they had heard, that the named defendants had committed the crimes listed. That they were not pursued within the statute of limitations means that the DAs with the authority to do so believed that the evidence did not rise to the necessary level to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt at a jury trial. I don't know if I would have made the same decision, but I know how difficult these decisions are.

ETA- Tezi, I DO understand the anger and frustration you feel towards Mary Lacey. She really is a piece of work, and I do not mean that positively. Someone should have rained that woman in. The damage her statements made may very well be what keeps justice for JonBenet at bay- very, very sad and tragic. I have no idea how that woman lives with herself. I guess I am really struck and amazed by the people of power in this investigation who were so smitten and bamboozled by the Ramsey's... that in itself is quite a feat- and so bizarre. I mean honestly, what are the chances?

No, no one understands the anger and frustration that I feel toward Lacy personally. No one. Not unless it was your family member who was sexually assaulted and she didn't want to prosecute the case because she "didn't want to ruin" the perp's life.

It's just more of the same with her telling Kolar she basically didn't want "to ruin her relationship" with the Ramseys.

OK, I need to walk away, before I have a stroke.

Lacy tends to make my blood pressure reach a dangerous point.

 

[tezi]

Here it is Frigga,


http://www.dailycamera.com/guest-op...oulder-district-attorney-jonbenet-ramsey-case

Thanks SyraKelly! I walked away from the computer yesterday, and didn't come back until this morning...

 

[tezi]

I just had a random thought and I really don't want to revisit "The death of innocence" (the book that btw made me believe Patsy is 100% guilty) but does anyone remember? Didn't JR threaten anyone who slandered them with a law suit and he said if they were not indicted he would be able to sue and he did claiming they were not indicted and that it was a question of MONEY???? well,actually they were indicted so aren't those lawsuits invalid???and did they PAY Hunter off not to sign???

That is a good question. I don't remember John really threatening anyone, but that is not to say coercion didn't occur. I believe with all of my soul that a lot of coercion occurred. I still think that there are people holding pieces of this puzzle that haven't told everything they know, just because they don't want to be sued by LeRoy Lincoln Wood and his client, the "indicted but not formally charged," John Ramsey.

 

[BOESP]

Slightly off topic here, but since BDI is a frequent conclusion right now, I went back to look at this post of BR on his facebook page. (Post 129 on this thread) Having some background in graphic arts, this photo raised some questions for me. The first question is: Does anyone else think this photo has been "photoshopped"? The closeness of the bodies and the arm drape of BR's is unusual. Second question, if anyone has Photoshop and is accustomed to manipulating adjustments, particularly exposure adjustments, there appears to be an image in the dark background behind these two. I won't say any more about what I saw in the background, just wondered if anyone else could note anything in it.

Quest, is one of these what you saw?

 

[midwest mama]

Kolar prepared a Theory of Prosecution AFTER seeing and knowing all the available case information.

The original charges of the GJ have run the statute of limitations, yes, but there is nothing to say NEW CHARGES could not be filed.

Kolar inidicated calling a new GJ and seeking testimony of Burke is a possibility to consider.

Garnett clearly established his office's ability to work with all facets of LE, to have the cajones to bring cold cases to trial, and to rely on a jury trial for final resolve.

No matter who bashed JB, considering the validated opinions of several that the head blow came before the ligature strangulation, it then took the ligature strangulation to end her life.

Former GJ returned true bills naming BOTH JR and PR as Accessories. Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't that include both of them being aware JB was alive when the ligature was actively employed?

If so, then the only person who could possibly face any new charges related to the crime would be JR - for what both Kolar and the astute cynic led us to look at: Felony Murder.

If JB was moved from one location to another WITHOUT seeking medical attention for her while still alive, before the ligature was applied and used, that would quality the Kidnapping charge. And, if it was PR who used the ligature, unless JR was 100% conked out asleep while it was going on and not brought into the mess until some time later (those shirt fibers in the panties have to make me believe he was there during a redressing), I would think JR should be able to be charged with Felony Murder since he did nothing to stop PR, knowing JB was still medically alive.

Back to Kolar preparing a Theory of Prosecution: he must believe there is a charge that can stick against JR -- he's the only one chargeable in the crime, and Felony Murder would assure a prosecutable case. It would not assure a conviction, but Garnett was clear to state he believes in jury trial, that they best serve the public interest, and that he has a very capable staff at the ready to do their job.

 

[stmarysmead]

I have always thought the size 12 panties were directly linked to Patsy's superficial "perfection."
During the staging, Patsy certainly realized that, although JB's dresser was filled with fecal stained underwear...she could not have her little Beauty Queen PUBLICLY found that way.

She alone knew where to find brand new ones. Better perfect little underpants than ones that fit.

I wonder if they were among the wrapped gifts in the basement...then she stuck the rest of them upstairs after the staging.

 

[questfortrue]

Quest, is one of these what you saw?

View attachment 38409 View attachment 38410

Someone posted this was from a 2006 photo, which for some reason is on a facebook page of BR. BR does look much younger than 26 in it. Odd, because there should be more recent photos.

The first photo you displayed on the left has BR's arm around JR, very close bodily as though BR is sitting on the lap of JR. His arm in the regular photo (Post 129) looks as though someone dropped the arm around JR, but it looks photoshopped because there is a straight line between JR's coat and BR's shirt. Unusual placement of the armed shirt on the right of the photo as we look at it.

Then, yes, the second photo you post I initially thought was just a black drape. But when I was looking at this photo and playing with the exposure to see what else it showed, since it seemed photoshopped to me, I considered if that "black drape" was a doorway behind it, but it doesn't have straight dark/black lines like a door jamb. What I saw in the black drape/or poster/ was the image of a young girl, scantily clothed. OK, likely doesn't advance anything, just spooked me. (Haul me off to the looney bin with the rest of the sleuthers who think they see things like this!)

 

[dodie20]

This is post is making me wonder too whether the whole foreign DNA could be a complete lie. :/

I've wondered about this before but since I usually can't make heads or tails out of technical, science papers, I've never really researched it. Is there somewhere where we can read an official reading on the DNA findings? Who found it, when, who tested it, who retested it, and most of all, why it called for the clearing of the Rs. Because really, if it can stand up to the scrutiny test and is what it claims to be, this should have been JR's whole argument for not releasing the GJ indictment...not just ML's letter, but the scientific findings.

 

[pearl]

Would someone please refresh my memory of the other 911 call made from the Ramsey house on, I think, Dec 17? I have looked but can't find it.

 

[deca]

Would someone please refresh my memory of the other 911 call made from the Ramsey house on, I think, Dec 17? I have looked but can't find it.

I don't think it was on the 17th. It was a party and IIRC the police were turned away at the front door. I am sure someone else will elaborate on this.

 

[gramcracker]

Would someone please refresh my memory of the other 911 call made from the Ramsey house on, I think, Dec 17? I have looked but can't find it.

I don't think it was on the 17th. It was a party and IIRC the police were turned away at the front door. I am sure someone else will elaborate on this.

I posted about that in another thread and I was wrong about the date so I will fix it. (I tied the 911 call to the four calls to Dr B after hours, on the 17th)

the 911 hangup was on the 23rd. the responding officer was kept on the front porch and Susan Stine (?) talked to him via the intercom and told him everything was fine, and he left without entering the house and/or speaking to the homeowners

 

[redheadedgal]

vlpate was telling me about an interview (or a depo) where every time kane brought up BR's name, LW interrupted/stopped that line of questioning. i'm not sure if PR or JR was the subject. does anyone know where this can be found? i tried all the links on ACR, but didn't see what i thought vlpate was talking about. thanks!

 

[questfortrue]

Kolar prepared a Theory of Prosecution AFTER seeing and knowing all the available case information.

The original charges of the GJ have run the statute of limitations, yes, but there is nothing to say NEW CHARGES could not be filed.

Kolar inidicated calling a new GJ and seeking testimony of Burke is a possibility to consider.

Garnett clearly established his office's ability to work with all facets of LE, to have the cajones to bring cold cases to trial, and to rely on a jury trial for final resolve.

No matter who bashed JB, considering the validated opinions of several that the head blow came before the ligature strangulation, it then took the ligature strangulation to end her life.

Former GJ returned true bills naming BOTH JR and PR as Accessories. Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't that include both of them being aware JB was alive when the ligature was actively employed?

If so, then the only person who could possibly face any new charges related to the crime would be JR - for what both Kolar and the astute cynic led us to look at: Felony Murder.

If JB was moved from one location to another WITHOUT seeking medical attention for her while still alive, before the ligature was applied and used, that would quality the Kidnapping charge. And, if it was PR who used the ligature, unless JR was 100% conked out asleep while it was going on and not brought into the mess until some time later (those shirt fibers in the panties have to make me believe he was there during a redressing), I would think JR should be able to be charged with Felony Murder since he did nothing to stop PR, knowing JB was still medically alive.

Back to Kolar preparing a Theory of Prosecution: he must believe there is a charge that can stick against JR -- he's the only one chargeable in the crime, and Felony Murder would assure a prosecutable case. It would not assure a conviction, but Garnett was clear to state he believes in jury trial, that they best serve the public interest, and that he has a very capable staff at the ready to do their job.

Your suggestion of a felony murder charge for participation in the ligature/garotte is really insightful, since it’d be easier to prove a parent participation in the ligature, than to prove a youth offender, even if BR were a boyscout. Also, since it was thought JB died outside the cellar where the urine stains were released upon the carpet, she would have been carried there one would think, not dragged. One other thing regards JB’s injuries: There weren’t marks on her clothes from a piece of train track (or something else used to cause the abrasions), so someone definitely redressed her and after redressing, the urine was released from the strangulation death. Like you say, unless JR can claim he was out like a light until the morning, he participated (Israeli shirt fibers tend to suggest that). One other scattered thought about BR and a ligature. SS overheard both BR and his best friend DS discussing how JB might have been strangled, as though they were wondering how it was accomplished. If it had been him rigging up a ligature and garotte, BR might not have engaged in this conversation as though he also was wondering?

Kolar in the program on Sunday indicated there might be a possibility of a new GJ in which questions could be asked of BR, because there were inconsistencies in his testimony to Detective DS in Atlanta. But, here’s the downside that I understand from the Stan Garnett article, and of course, it’s only my opinion - there isn’t going to be a new grand jury unless they get a DA like Vincent Bugliosi who won’t blink. That’s not going to happen in Boulder. All moo.

 

[spcagrl]

I just finished reading Chief Kolar's book, after reading some of the posts here I looked it up on Amazon......and found it in a KINDLE edition! It is an excellent read and some of the info on BR is positively chilling.

 

[tezi]

I just finished reading Chief Kolar's book, after reading some of the posts here I looked it up on Amazon......and found it in a KINDLE edition! It is an excellent read and some of the info on BR is positively chilling.

It is an excellent book, one of the best written about this case, IMO.

 

[Simply Caustic]

And you can borrow it if you are an Amazon prime member. I did...and now I'm going to buy it knowing how much I enjoyed it

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