Grand Jury True Bills John & Patsy Discussion thread

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On CNN he said to reconvene a grand jury and subpoena Burke.


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Oh ok, I haven listed to the interview yet b/c it sounded like it would be frustrating....would much rather listen tonight!

BTW, I'm surprised we don't have a thread where we can put forth questions for tonight's show???
 
I don't for a few reasons, the biggest being he was so disconnected from his son and his wife. He wasn't the kind of father that was super involved, that was Patsy's job. He worked, payed bills... IMO interacted as little as possible.
He's not the type to use threats and violence... And he wasn't involved enough to manipulate & groom. IMO

I'd believe it was Patsy before I'd ever believe it was John.


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And Patsy could have been doing the grooming of JB as little Vegas show girl for John. After all, Karla Homolka procured her own sister for her lover!! Patsy wasn't sexually available to him, and she herself was abused when she was younger. Nedra even used the phrase "a little bit abused". I think John abused JB in a sick, sex game gone awry. He had the strength for the head bash/ to choke her. Patsy was complicit in writing the ransom book to stand by her man- not expose the family's sexual scandals. I do think Patsy also abused JB in cleansing her vaginal area and paying off the doctor not to report it. Burke may also have been sexually abused.This is one very sick family- but I still think John is the primary abuser and killer.
 
I'm a believer in the BDI theory and that JR and PR covered it up. The part that has always bothered me, however, was how much of JBR's hair was wrapped up in the garrote and yanked out of her head. It seems such a violent act that would take a good amount of force. Aside from those who believe an IDI, I'm wondering which of these scenarios you think explains that violent pulling out of the hair:

A) BR made the garrote and used it in his sexual abuse of JBR, which was violent enough to pull her hair out.

B) PR or JR made the garrote (possibly in an attempt to cover up BR's earlier, weaker attempts at asphyxiation) and in their fury at the situation or out of panic, pulled her hair out in the process.

C) JR or PR was the one sexually abusing JBR with a garrote and pulled her hair out in the process and caused the bash to the head (i.e. BR was not involved)

D) Other
JB's pulled hair has always bothered me too. It's one of those things that points to no remorse, IMO.
 
This is exactly what I think happened with one major exception- I think it was John rather than Burke doing it...

It certainly could have been JR. We just don't know for sure which of the R's was responsible. But I am betting it WAS one of the three, two of the three or all three.
 
It certainly could have been JR. We just don't know for sure which of the R's was responsible. But I am betting it WAS one of the three, two of the three or all three.
I completely agree!
And exactly why this case could never be prosecuted!!!


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One oddity as well...

IMO, this was planned because this happened on Christmas Day out of the 365 days out of the year.
Maybe the Rs thought the LE would not be as thorough on Christmas Day? IDK, just thinking out loud.
 
Thank you SyraKelly! I, for some reason, do not feel incensed by the Op-Ed piece and I appreciate this comment by SG (BBM):

These documents mean that this grand jury believed there was "probable cause" (a lower threshold standard of proof than "beyond a reasonable doubt" ) based on the evidence they had heard, that the named defendants had committed the crimes listed. That they were not pursued within the statute of limitations means that the DAs with the authority to do so believed that the evidence did not rise to the necessary level to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt at a jury trial. I don't know if I would have made the same decision, but I know how difficult these decisions are.

snip
the main takeaway:

That they were not pursued within the statute of limitations means that the DAs with the authority to do so believed that the evidence did not rise to the necessary level to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt at a jury trial

no, that's not what that means. garnett wants to gloss over any other motivation/s for the inaction of his predecessors. nice lawyerly try. He couldve easliy sited their (well documented) incompetence & attendant cowardice. Expect nothing from him.
 
Reading through the different papers I can't say I'm surprised by some of the comments...such as, the DNA cleared the Rs, it was somebody that worked with JR, it was a jealous friend, JB caused her own prior injuries, (that's common, you know), the DNA nullifies the rest of the evidence, parents had no motive, and my new favorite...how dare the GJ vote on child abuse when the worst they did was put JB in pageants, and it's perfectly legal. I wish somebody would explain what the jury meant exactly. Were the Rs not considered murderers but covered for someone else, or was 1 of them seen as the murderer and the other one covering? And what exactly did they mean by child abuse? Abuse for knowingly letting a killer near JB, or was one of them seen as the abuser? From what I've read, the GJ studied a case against the Rs...did they on their own decide BR was guilty or were they presented evidence against him?
 
There is a suitcase with a semen stained comforter and a Dr. Seuss book inside. The comforter was John Andrews. The semen was John Andrews. He was there and babysat JonBenet and Burke around the first of December.

Joe Barnhill said he saw John Andrew that Christmas afternoon walking near the Ramsey's home, but he has an alibi

Burke was too old for the Dr. Sueuss book.
I believe JA's alibi was questionable- wasn't it? After all, didn't JR hire counsels for JA's mother and sister paid by JR?
 
I believe JA's alibi was questionable- wasn't it? After all, didn't JR hire counsels for JA's mother and sister paid by JR?

You are correct. JR lawyered up JAR and his mother (JR's first wife) immediately. She did not talk to police and did not provide any proof (such as a photo taken Christmas Day) that her son was actually in Georgia. A grainy photo from an ATM machine was provided in which you cannot see the face of the person using the card. They could easily have had one of his friends use it to provide an alibi. There was also a movie stub. That could have been used by anyone. Why didn't they check for "touch" DNA on that?
 

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Where did the size 12 little girls panties come from?

What was the estimated time of death....do you all think she died on Christmas night and then they called 911 on the morning of the 26th?
 
Where did the size 12 little girls panties come from?

What was the estimated time of death....do you all think she died on Christmas night and then they called 911 on the morning of the 26th?

Patsy bought the panties as a gift for someone else.


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Where did the size 12 little girls panties come from?

What was the estimated time of death....do you all think she died on Christmas night and then they called 911 on the morning of the 26th?

PR bought them as a gift for niece Jenny....they were from Bloomind*ales and had the day of the week on them. The particular day on the particular panties in question read "Wednesday"
 
Is there a source link for a list of those who testified at the GJ proceedings? I've looked all over and can't find one.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-ramsey-grand-jury.htm

scroll down the page a bit, here is what I found quickly but this isn't a complete list, i don't think.

Grand Jury witnesses

Some of the people known to have testified before the Ramsey grand jury:

Mike Archuleta -- Private pilot who was scheduled to fly the Ramseys to their Michigan vacation home the day after Christmas 1996.

Linda Arndt -- Now-retired Boulder Police detective, the first investigator on the scene.

Dr. Francesco Beuf -- JonBenet's pediatrician.

Debbie Chavez -- Colorado Bureau of Investigation forensics expert.

John Douglas -- Former FBI criminal profiler hired by the Ramseys.

Michael Everett -- Among the first Boulder Police detectives assigned to the case.

John and Barbara Fernie -- Friends of the Ramseys who were summoned to the home after JonBenet was discovered missing.

Richard French -- One of the first Boulder patrol officers on the scene. He searched the house shortly after arriving, without locating JonBenet's body.

Ron Gosage -- Boulder Police detective working the case from its first days.

Pam Griffin -- Ramsey family friend and seamstress who assisted with JonBenet's beauty pageant costumes.

Jane Harmer -- Boulder Police detective involved in the case from the beginning.

George Herrera -- CBI fingerprints expert.

Linda Hoffmann-Pugh -- Ramseys' housekeeper at the time of JonBenet's death.

The Rev. Rol Hoverstock -- Minister from the Ramseys' church, summoned to the home in the first hours of JonBenet's disappearance.

Larry Mason -- Boulder Police sergeant removed from the case in its second week when he was wrongly accused of leaking information to the press.

Dr. John Meyer -- Boulder County coroner; he performed the autopsy on JonBenet.

Fred Patterson -- Boulder Police detective, among the first on the scene.

Carol Piirto -- Burke Ramsey's third-grade teacher.

Merv Pugh -- The husband of Linda Hoffmann-Pugh; he had done some work at the home a month before the murder.

Burke Ramsey -- JonBenet's brother, now 12, the only person other than her parents known to be in the house at the time she disappeared.

Lou Smit -- Retired Colorado Springs homicide detective who worked on the case for the district attorney's office.

Tom Trujillo -- A Boulder Police detective on the case since its earliest days.

Chet Ubowski -- Colorado Bureau of Investigation handwriting analyst who concluded that Patsy Ramsey may have written the ransom note linked to JonBenet's murder.

Barry Weiss -- Among the first Boulder patrol officers at the Ramsey home.

Fleet and Priscilla White -- Ramsey friends called to the house the morning of JonBenet's disappearance. Fleet was in the basement with John Ramsey when the child's body was found.

Tom Wickman -- The Boulder police detective sergeant who has supervised the investigation since the early days.
 
I just had a random thought and I really don't want to revisit "The death of innocence" (the book that btw made me believe Patsy is 100% guilty) but does anyone remember? Didn't JR threaten anyone who slandered them with a law suit and he said if they were not indicted he would be able to sue and he did claiming they were not indicted and that it was a question of MONEY???? well,actually they were indicted so aren't those lawsuits invalid???and did they PAY Hunter off not to sign???
 
I must comment on this because IMO it's important and indicative of the kind of people the Ramsey's were. Patsy opened her home for Christmas tours and has a Christmas tree in every room. ... Yet every pair of JonBenet's panties were stained! That's just disgusting!

I was, by no means, as wealth of the Ramsey's in 1997, but when my son was potty training..,I threw away underwear that didn't come clean in the laundry. I toss socks that don't come clean & get holes. It's disgusting that underneath all the pretty .... Was a child wearing fecal stained panties ... Her drawers were filled with fecal stained panties too. Poor JonBenet, whose mother can't remember the last time she bathed.

It makes me sick.






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And not to mention the argument on whether JBR wear "matching outfits" with Patsy on Christmas Day.

I guess this is what happens when you have nannies. No real mother=child bond.

IMO, JBR was just a mini-Patsy and she was living vicariously through JBR, up until she knocked her to crack her skull then her and JR started the ransom note etc...

They promised each other to "shut up"; PR striking JBR and JR molesting her.

Patsy panicked at the last minute, and called 911.
 
And not to mention the argument on whether JBR wear "matching outfits" with Patsy on Christmas Day.

I guess this is what happens when you have nannies. No real mother=child bond.

IMO, JBR was just a mini-Patsy and she was living vicariously through JBR, up until she knocked her to crack her skull then her and JR started the ransom note etc...

They promised each other to "shut up"; PR striking JBR and JR molesting her.

Patsy panicked at the last minute, and called 911.

This is what happens to a child when her mother is a raging narcissist. IMO matching outfits, beauty queen nonsense. Patsy viewed JonBenet not as a separate entity but as an extention of herself. Patsy sure didn't like that JonBenet was starting to express her own ideas thoughts and opinions.

I can't make a pretty good case for just Patsy all Patsy.., with John finding out after the fact,





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