Grand Jury True Bills John & Patsy Discussion thread

[shefner]

I think the R's knew JBR was being sexually molested. The Fleets most likely knew something was happening as well. There is lots of background information available to suggest this.

Are you referencing JBR's numerous trips to her pediatrician? Do you think it was BR who was molesting JBR?

 

[tezi]

Here it is Tezi, from The Boulder Daily Camera:

In an interview to be broadcast tonight, Ramsey voices empathy for the man arrested but later released after he confessed to slaying 6-year-old pageant queen JonBenet Ramsey in her Boulder home.


"After a while, he was so abused and vilified and convicted in the media that I started to feel sorry for the guy," Ramsey told "48 Hours Mystery" correspondent Erin Moriarty in his first interview since his wife Patsy's death and Karr's arrest.

link: http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_13068611

Come on... honestly- the only reason someone would say this is if they knew for certain the person (no matter how sick and twisted) was innocent!

Thank You! I knew I remembered this.

I just don't know what to say...I just don't.

 

[SyraKelly]

To me it sounds like EVERYONE ( BPD,AH,The Ramseys,their lawyers,all in the DA's office..past & present) knew about the indictments,except the most important people...the public!!!!
and they all kept quiet about it for 17 yrs...

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Lou Reed has died...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4wNknGIKkoA

A lot of changes was going on in a restless America.

 

[Chelly]

Are you referencing JBR's numerous trips to her pediatrician? Do you think it was BR who was molesting JBR?

Someone was. Excellent chance it was BR.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Are you referencing JBR's numerous trips to her pediatrician? Do you think it wasi BR who was molesting JBR?

There is a suitcase with a semen stained comforter and a Dr. Seuss book inside. The comforter was John Andrews. The semen was John Andrews. He was there and babysat JonBenet and Burke around the first of December.

Joe Barnhill said he saw John Andrew that Christmas afternoon walking near the Ramsey's home, but he has an alibi

Burke was too old for the Dr. Sueuss book.

 

[bettybaby00]

I just read SG's piece in the "Daily Camera."

I am so angry right now I could scream.

He knew about the indictments in 2009, when he took office. That means Lacy knew about them, there is no way she didn't because SG inherited them when he took office.

So, Lacy knew, and still brought Karr back, still did her little exoneration thing with John, still went after Santa Bill, and countless other people, all the while KNOWING the GJ had issued indictments on two of the counts against each parent.

And since Lacy knew, I would bet my boots that Haddon and Wood knew also! Just business as usual....

Yep, John, the GJ sure did vote to indict you and Patsy. Another of one of your lies has been uncovered. But, Hunter and Lacy made sure that you were never charged. How the fark do you live with yourself? You have destroyed countless lives, just so people can live with the illusion that you are "innocent." Yes, you are innocent, innocent of telling the truth.


I am just ready to be sick, all over again.

I hear ya.....I don't know how any of them sleep at night!

I was looking for this post of mine earlier and I just found it...in his book, Kolar describes his investigative process, in part, as evidence begins to point to family he considers the following:

• "Did JR or PR have a motive to intentionally kill their daughter?"

He didn't believe that likely...

• "was it possible PR had lost her temper during an argument and struck JB with an object?"

He didn't find that likely either.

He states, "it was clear someone struck her, it wasn't self inflicted, and if it wasn't PR then who?

• If the parents didn't intentionally do it, and if there was no intruder, then why go to all that effort to stage a cover up?
• Who would benefit?
• Who was being protected?
• Why?"

He "believed this was a viable investigative lead that deserved pursuit..." With the medical records possibly playing a key role. all of this was part of his investigative presentation to Lacy et al.

when he had finished, he states, "Mary Lacy's response was something I'll never forget. She told me she was unwilling to pursue that lead b/c she DIDN'T WANT TO HARM HER RELATIONSHIP WITH THE RAMSEY FAMILY." (277-281)

My blood still boils when I reread this :banghead::banghead:

He knew without a doubt that any real investigation into the family was never going to happen....not on Lacy's watch at least :banghead::banghead:

 

[Frigga]

Tezi, can you please link the OP-Ed piece by SG?

 

[SyraKelly]

Tezi, can you please link the OP-Ed piece by SG?

Here it is Frigga,


http://www.dailycamera.com/guest-op...oulder-district-attorney-jonbenet-ramsey-case

 

[Frigga]

Here it is Frigga,


http://www.dailycamera.com/guest-op...oulder-district-attorney-jonbenet-ramsey-case

Thank you SyraKelly! I, for some reason, do not feel incensed by the Op-Ed piece and I appreciate this comment by SG (BBM):

These documents mean that this grand jury believed there was "probable cause" (a lower threshold standard of proof than "beyond a reasonable doubt" ) based on the evidence they had heard, that the named defendants had committed the crimes listed. That they were not pursued within the statute of limitations means that the DAs with the authority to do so believed that the evidence did not rise to the necessary level to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt at a jury trial. I don't know if I would have made the same decision, but I know how difficult these decisions are.

ETA- Tezi, I DO understand the anger and frustration you feel towards Mary Lacey. She really is a piece of work, and I do not mean that positively. Someone should have rained that woman in. The damage her statements made may very well be what keeps justice for JonBenet at bay- very, very sad and tragic. I have no idea how that woman lives with herself. I guess I am really struck and amazed by the people of power in this investigation who were so smitten and bamboozled by the Ramsey's... that in itself is quite a feat- and so bizarre. I mean honestly, what are the chances?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Chelly, Do you think that PR or JR knew of ongoing sexual molestation by BR? Or that this was discovered the night of JBR's death?
I just can't grasp it all. I mean....even though I accept these kind of these happen it simply throughs my mind and heart into a tizzy.

I believe it's entirely possible the knew.


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[Linda7NJ]

Maybe the prior molestation was by the parents.

Could this case be re-opened and if so, how would that come about it? TIA

The case has never been closed.

Without a confession ... It's never gonna happen. IMO


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[Frigga]

I really, really want to know what Kolar said about Fleet White! Does anyone here know or recollect?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Follow is IMO....
1. The size 12's were what were at hand.
2. JBR's clean underwear had been packed up and were on the plane for the trip to MI and subsequent Disney cruise
3. The underwear left behind were fecal stained.
4. JR redressed JBR while PR was writing ransom note, placing longjohns over the size 12's. Maybe at that time he thought the underwear size was no big deal.

I must comment on this because IMO it's important and indicative of the kind of people the Ramsey's were. Patsy opened her home for Christmas tours and has a Christmas tree in every room. ... Yet every pair of JonBenet's panties were stained! That's just disgusting!

I was, by no means, as wealth of the Ramsey's in 1997, but when my son was potty training..,I threw away underwear that didn't come clean in the laundry. I toss socks that don't come clean & get holes. It's disgusting that underneath all the pretty .... Was a child wearing fecal stained panties ... Her drawers were filled with fecal stained panties too. Poor JonBenet, whose mother can't remember the last time she bathed.

It makes me sick.






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[LinasK]

Believe what you want. However, autopsy reports showed JBR's hymen was severely eroded. Digital penetration or insertion of a object can cause that. Maybe the exploration went too far and JBR cried out or tried to get away, threatening "to tell".

I don't believe Burke was involved either- I believe John was the one abusing her. I don't doubt the autopsy reports, but that's something you don't have to be 9 to cause...

 

[LinasK]

Let's assume the sex game went bad, JBR tried to escape, BR smashed her on the head or maybe squeezed her neck until she lost consciousness. JR and PR hear the commotion, see what's happened, send BR to bed. JBR looks dead and can't be revived, so they stage a crime scene with ligature, etc.

This is exactly what I think happened with one major exception- I think it was John rather than Burke doing it...

 

[bettybaby00]

The case has never been closed.

Without a confession ... It's never gonna happen. IMO


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At the end of Kolar's book he discusses his "theory of prosecution," but doesn't put it in b/c of the GJ limitations.

Would love to know what that is, and if he can speak of it now?

 

[Linda7NJ]

This is exactly what I think happened with one major exception- I think it was John rather than Burke doing it...

I don't for a few reasons, the biggest being he was so disconnected from his son and his wife. He wasn't the kind of father that was super involved, that was Patsy's job. He worked, payed bills... IMO interacted as little as possible.
He's not the type to use threats and violence... And he wasn't involved enough to manipulate & groom. IMO

I'd believe it was Patsy before I'd ever believe it was John.


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[Linda7NJ]

At the end of Kolar's book he discusses his "theory of prosecution," but doesn't put it in b/c of the GJ limitations.

Would love to know what that is, and if he can speak of it now?

On CNN he said to reconvene a grand jury and subpoena Burke.


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[rachaellouise]

What I'd give to be a fly on the wall at the next time JR and BR see eachother!