Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #2 *ARREST*

[Orgona]

But the police mentioned so called "orphan DNA". Sb outside the household.

Just because at that moment there was a DNA other than B’s or LE’s it doesn’t mean it wasn’t found out later that it belonged to someone who legitimately was in the house earlier. Hence the later no other DNA statement.

Although, I can’t remember anymore which statement came from the horse’s mouth and which statement came from an analyst.
I should go to bed now..

 

[Patrick Jane]

Περιπλέκουν τις έρευνες οι καταγγελίες για την «ψυχολόγο» της Καρολάιν – Τι δουλειά κάνει τελικά; | ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

 

[Lindsay Lou Who]

Ummm.... Copycat? But with a twist.

Could definitely be how an idea was planted in someone's mind!

 

[Lindsay Lou Who]

Excellent observation! Maybe the wife had a certified board accredited psychologist instead?



ETA: Original comment removed since I'm incapable of understanding the automatic translator. Since this comment is still floating here, I'll ask, does anybody think it strange that even though this couple were beaten, the 3 perps left no shred of DNA at all?

I would imagine near on impossible to not leave a single trace of any of their DNA! They were clearly unorganised in not bringing their own burglary equipment! (tape, string etc)
So how much trouble did they go to to ensure not a single shread of DNA evidence could be found?
MOO

 

[Patrick Jane]

This is a media interview today with the "Honorary President/Chairman of the Officers of the Greek Police", the "Brigadier/Brigadier General"
Hellenic Police - Wikipedia

He shares his opinions of the case. There's a lot here. I'll get back to it later, but wanted to post it now, so I don't lose it.

The LE Brigadier's initials are AK, so I'll refer to him by that for convenience.

3:20 AK: In regard to the hypnotherapist, the "framing" of the (criminal) investigation must go everywhere. Literally everywhere. Because there are so many gaps . . . so many answers (to unanswered questions) are needed.
4:30 newsman: we had heard (news reports) of a struggle (between the victim and the alleged perpetrator), but no DNA was found on her nails. The crime scene is sparse of genetic material. AK: (correcting the newsman's characterization of the crime scene as "sparse") They say: "nonexistent." Nonexistent. At least that's what I've heard and if it's accurate. Crime scenes "speak", but this crime scene, however, is "speechless."
5:15 newsman: "experienced" robbers enter (to break in) but don't even have string or tape (to bind and restrain victims), and yet the only prints (implying fingerprints here I would think) belong to the husband. AK agrees that this is an issue.
5:30 AK: there's also an additional question from my perspective, "for what reason would robbers, who commit a robbery and a murder, take the memory cards from the cameras?" They (robbers who operate in the standard modus operandi of robbers) "grab them (the cameras) and go." Removing the memory cards is a time-consuming process. A robber does his damage (whatever damage he inflicts on the victims), and leaves. (implying a robber isn't going to sit around and take the time to remove memory cards from cameras).
6:20 newsman: Do you think that things might be different than the version of things that we've been getting from the crime editors (in the general media) AK: Yes, I believe so.
newsman: Don't tell us details. Are the investigations going in a different "framing" (of the case)? AK: The "framing" (of the case) has widened/broadened. newsman: widened in regard to persons? AK: To persons. That's my assessment/evaluation. I hope that I'm wrong.
7:40 AK: Another thing that made an impression on me was that from the hypothesis that they (the alleged perpetrators) found this money, once they were informed about it, BUT without there being any disarray in the space/environment (where it was located). This is very important and must be investigated. And besides that, there wasn't any general disarray in the rest of the house.
8:00 AK: And the most important: everyone who knows about dogs knows that when strangers enter into (a dog's territory) he'll raise/whip-up a fuss (and cause a commotion by barking). Here what happened? How'd they catch the dog? How'd they tie the dog? How'd they hang dog? And the next door neighbor lady heard nothing (no barking, etc.)?
8:30 newsman: answer me this one question, did CC defend herself or not? AK: if she defended herself there would be signs, but here we have no such signs. No scratches, no bruising of her skin*, no DNA on her nails.

*ecchymosis: a discoloration of the skin resulting from bleeding underneath, typically caused by bruising. (Oxford dictionary)

 

[Kemug]

A very big "Hmmmmm".

 

[Patrick Jane]

The LE Brigadier's initials are AK, so I'll refer to him by that for convenience.

3:20 AK: In regard to the hypnotherapist, the "framing" of the (criminal) investigation must go everywhere. Literally everywhere. Because there are so many gaps . . . so many answers (to unanswered questions) are needed.
4:30 newsman: we had heard (news reports) of a struggle (between the victim and the alleged perpetrator), but no DNA was found on her nails. The crime scene is sparse of genetic material. AK: (correcting the newsman's characterization of the crime scene as "sparse") They say: "nonexistent." Nonexistent. At least that's what I've heard and if it's accurate. Crime scenes "speak", but this crime scene, however, is "speechless."
5:15 newsman: "experienced" robbers enter (to break in) but don't even have string or tape (to bind and restrain victims), and yet the only prints (implying fingerprints here I would think) belong to the husband. AK agrees that this is an issue.
5:30 AK: there's also an additional question from my perspective, "for what reason would robbers, who commit a robbery and a murder, take the memory cards from the cameras?" They (robbers who operate in the standard modus operandi of robbers) "grab them (the cameras) and go." Removing the memory cards is a time-consuming process. A robber does his damage (whatever damage he inflicts on the victims), and leaves. (implying a robber isn't going to sit around and take the time to remove memory cards from cameras).
6:20 newsman: Do you think that things might be different than the version of things that we've been getting from the crime editors (in the general media) AK: Yes, I believe so.
newsman: Don't tell us details. Are the investigations going in a different "framing" (of the case)? AK: The "framing" (of the case) has widened/broadened. newsman: widened in regard to persons? AK: To persons. That's my assessment/evaluation. I hope that I'm wrong.
7:40 AK: Another thing that made an impression on me was that from the hypothesis that they (the alleged perpetrators) found this money, once they were informed about it, BUT without there being any disarray in the space/environment (where it was located). This is very important and must be investigated. And besides that, there wasn't any general disarray in the rest of the house.
8:00 AK: And the most important: everyone who knows about dogs knows that when strangers enter into (a dog's territory) he'll raise/whip-up a fuss (and cause a commotion by barking). Here what happened? How'd they catch the dog? How'd they tie the dog? How'd they hang dog? And the next door neighbor lady heard nothing (no barking, etc.)?
8:30 newsman: answer me this one question, did CC defend herself or not? AK: if she defended herself there would be signs, but here we have no such signs. No scratches, no bruising of her skin*, no DNA on her nails.

*ecchymosis: a discoloration of the skin resulting from bleeding underneath, typically caused by bruising. (Oxford dictionary)

I wanted to add a note on my translation of "framing." Literally this word in Greek means frame or picture frame. The usage here is like how you'd say in English, "How would you frame that question?" Or "Let me frame my answer this way." It's not used in the sense that LE is framing any person in the sense of planting evidence.
The meaning of "framing" that I'm intending here is like how you'd say in English "scope" of the investigation. In the sense of "we're widening the scope of the investigation."

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Précisément !

Said in my best Hercule Poirot voice.

It would indeed. And it’s definitely known who took the tape down from the victim, in that case the DNA of that policeman would be used to eliminate his DNA from the sample, B’s DNA would be known too and therefor could be eliminated from the sample, so whatever would be left would be the perp’s who put the tape on them. How I interpret those statements is that there wasn’t any stranger’s DNA found, which is very remarkable after handling that tape, taping around B’s head.

 

[Patrick Jane]

I wanted to add a note on my translation of "framing." Literally this word in Greek means frame or picture frame. The usage here is like how you'd say in English, "How would you frame that question?" Or "Let me frame my answer this way." It's not used in the sense that LE is framing any person in the sense of planting evidence.
The meaning of "framing" that I'm intending here is like how you'd say in English "scope" of the investigation. In the sense of "we're widening the scope of the investigation."

Also used in the sense of how you'd say in English "reframing." For example, LE is "reframing" this investigation from X to Y.

 

[fraudqueen]

Also no fibers found from gloves or apparently anything.

 

[Lindsay Lou Who]

The LE Brigadier's initials are AK, so I'll refer to him by that for convenience.

3:20 AK: In regard to the hypnotherapist, the "framing" of the (criminal) investigation must go everywhere. Literally everywhere. Because there are so many gaps . . . so many answers (to unanswered questions) are needed.
4:30 newsman: we had heard (news reports) of a struggle (between the victim and the alleged perpetrator), but no DNA was found on her nails. The crime scene is sparse of genetic material. AK: (correcting the newsman's characterization of the crime scene as "sparse") They say: "nonexistent." Nonexistent. At least that's what I've heard and if it's accurate. Crime scenes "speak", but this crime scene, however, is "speechless."
5:15 newsman: "experienced" robbers enter (to break in) but don't even have string or tape (to bind and restrain victims), and yet the only prints (implying fingerprints here I would think) belong to the husband. AK agrees that this is an issue.
5:30 AK: there's also an additional question from my perspective, "for what reason would robbers, who commit a robbery and a murder, take the memory cards from the cameras?" They (robbers who operate in the standard modus operandi of robbers) "grab them (the cameras) and go." Removing the memory cards is a time-consuming process. A robber does his damage (whatever damage he inflicts on the victims), and leaves. (implying a robber isn't going to sit around and take the time to remove memory cards from cameras).
6:20 newsman: Do you think that things might be different than the version of things that we've been getting from the crime editors (in the general media) AK: Yes, I believe so.
newsman: Don't tell us details. Are the investigations going in a different "framing" (of the case)? AK: The "framing" (of the case) has widened/broadened. newsman: widened in regard to persons? AK: To persons. That's my assessment/evaluation. I hope that I'm wrong.
7:40 AK: Another thing that made an impression on me was that from the hypothesis that they (the alleged perpetrators) found this money, once they were informed about it, BUT without there being any disarray in the space/environment (where it was located). This is very important and must be investigated. And besides that, there wasn't any general disarray in the rest of the house.
8:00 AK: And the most important: everyone who knows about dogs knows that when strangers enter into (a dog's territory) he'll raise/whip-up a fuss (and cause a commotion by barking). Here what happened? How'd they catch the dog? How'd they tie the dog? How'd they hang dog? And the next door neighbor lady heard nothing (no barking, etc.)?
8:30 newsman: answer me this one question, did CC defend herself or not? AK: if she defended herself there would be signs, but here we have no such signs. No scratches, no bruising of her skin*, no DNA on her nails.

*ecchymosis: a discoloration of the skin resulting from bleeding underneath, typically caused by bruising. (Oxford dictionary)

Am I the only one reading this thinking AK has his man in his sights, but just needs more evidence to prove it? MOO

I really hope justice is found for poor Caroline

 

[Tortoise]

My money is on 2 or 3. If it was 1, then there would be more than one palm print. There would be multiple prints.

There would really only be the husband's prints on the first section of tape to come off the roll. The rest, underneath the outermost layer, would have been protected from any prints until the tape was used. So it does depend on where in the whole length of tape used the prints were found. And only the person who applied the tape to his head should have left any prints on the sticky side.

MOO

 

[Dotta]

Ok, but what about the string B's hands were tied with? Any DNA? How can you tie your hands by yourself? Using your teeth to tighten the knot?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Seems like you can tie your hands by yourself.

How to Tie Yourself up With Rope: 7 Steps (with Pictures)

Ok, but what about the string B's hands wre tied with? Any DNA? How can you tie your hands by yourself? Using your teeth to tighten the knot?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

And here. How to Tie Your Own Hands

It is quick and relatively easy to tie your own hands. If you are performing this process at home, you probably already have the supplies to do so. With a little bit of patience, you'll be able to form a strong knot around your wrists. The hard part, however, will be undoing it once you have tied your own hands.


Getting untied is not a problem if the Police or someone does it, after you manage to call them.

 

[Dotta]

Seems like you can tie your hands by yourself.

How to Tie Yourself up With Rope: 7 Steps (with Pictures)

 

[Dotta]

So... I was right - you must use your teeth. It means saliva on the string. And saliva is distinct DNA.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

No teeth needed.

Stephen Martin demonstrates how Orville Gibson 'tied himself up' | Daily Mail Online

 

[Lola68]

So... I was right - you must use your teeth. It means saliva on the string. And saliva is distinct DNA.

Equally, if your hands were tied, you might try using your teeth to untie/bite through the string.

(But if only your nose is free from tape, that wouldn’t be possible)

 

[Dotta]

No teeth needed.

Stephen Martin demonstrates how Orville Gibson 'tied himself up' | Daily Mail Online

OMG The things I learn on WS haha