Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[Patrick Jane]

I had a go with DeepL translate and found this interesting:

“According to exclusive information from MEGA:

The window had no signs of forced entry, no glass was broken underneath, nor did the glass have any screwdriver marks
It was pulled out and resting on the floor, in the middle of the room in the basement and there were scattered discarded screws around.”

And also this:

“At the same time, according to the police editor of the newspapers "To Vima" and "Ta Nea", Vassilis Lambropoulos, the only findings that the scientists of the forensic laboratories of the Hellenic Police are a fingerprint -unrelated to the crime- of a foreign worker and a... palmar imprint of the 32-year-old pilot on the adhesive tape with which he was tied to his face, body and legs.”

And this:

“It is also noteworthy that no traces of gloves were found in this film (there may have been a pasting of part of plastic gloves, fibers of cloth, etc.) that were obviously worn by the robbers, since they left no other trace in the house.“

On the other hand somewhere in the article it says LE hasn’t found much biological evidence at the place of the other 10 robberies either.
Is this correct? Because then it would place the statements above in a different light again. Then the question would arise just how good the forensics team really is, or are those some genius robbers?

I’m sure that I’m not sure what to think.

All IMHO

To answer your question about the 10 other robberies, yes, it seems you're correct.

I have the excerpt below of what you're referring to.

Τα στελέχη της ΕΛ.ΑΣ εξετάζουν, τουλάχιστον προς το παρόν, δέκα ακόμη ανεξιχνίαστες ληστείες που έχουν σημειωθεί τους τελευταίους μήνες κι όπου πάλι δεν υπήρχαν σημαντικά ευρήματα, όπως στην περίπτωση της ληστείας μετά φόνου στα Γλυκά Νερά.

This excerpt doesn't explicitly mention "biological evidence" but it seems to be implied from the context, because the paragraph just before this excerpt is talking about the lack of genetic material in this case. This excerpt says that these 10 robberies are "unsolved" and just like in this case they are without σημαντικά ευρήματα , "significant/important findings".

"Findings" of what? Well, the implication is of "genetic material" which was mentioned in the previous paragraph.

I'll give some translations of the video, which might put this article into better context.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Γλυκά Νερά: Εγκαταλείπει για πάντα τη μεζονέτα ο πιλότος – Στο σημείο «μηδέν» οι έρευνες - ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

there's a lot here in this report

let me start by saying, according to this reporting, the husband has decided to soon "empty out" (i.e. move out) of the house, and move somewhere away from there.

there are no signs of forced entry on the window either

there's much more here and in the video, that I'll talk about later when I can

another link to the video embedded in that article:

Γλυκά Νερά: Εγκαταλείπει για πάντα τη μεζονέτα ο πιλότος – Ελάχιστα τα ευρήματα, εστιασμένες οι έρευνες | MEGA TV

The same crime reporter, Lambropoulos, who I've posted his interviews before in this thread, and who is the crime news editor of this newspaper (Ta Nea) and another one (To Vima), starts this interview at 3:30

3:45 police have found no evidence of the presence (of the alleged perpetrators) neither in the examination of the crime scene NOR in the examination of CCTV, something which is exceptionally rare and has only happened on two or three prior occasions
4:30 no DNA was found on the nails of the victim which is unusual, as usually there are findings of DNA, especially if the victim struggled with the perpetrator, which would presumably be the case here because the perpetrator was suffocating the victim
5:30 the TV reporter asks Lambropoulos about the police saying they had found some DNA, but Lambropoulos seems to dismiss this by saying and implying that there is always DNA in any house and the issue is whether this DNA is evidence of the presence of perpetrators, the TV reporter brings this up again at 6:54 and Lambropoulos states that the DNA is unidentified currently, and it could be evidence of perpetrators but it could also be "something else" (which I'd interpret here as "not relevant" because he mentioned previously that the existence of DNA doesn't necessarily mean evidence of perpetrators)
6:20 Lambropoulos brings up a prior case where DNA was not found, but photographic evidence (which must refer to CCTV footage) was found which showed arrival and departure of the perpetrator
7:20 the TV reporter asks Lambropoulos what if they (the alleged perpetrators) were wearing sterilized clothing (think of plastic cover-alls here, so to not leave DNA at the scene). Lambropoulos responds by saying if they wearing gloves there hasn't been found even any mark or trace of the fabric, not even on the packaging tape (implying that because tape is a sticky substance, fibers would presumably be left here)

 

[everybodhi]

(snipped)
7:20 the TV reporter asks Lambropoulos what if they (the alleged perpetrators) were wearing sterilized clothing (think of plastic cover-alls here, so to not leave DNA at the scene). Lambropoulos responds by saying if they wearing gloves there hasn't been found even any mark or trace of the fabric, not even on the packaging tape (implying that because tape is a sticky substance, fibers would presumably be left here)

I cannot find anything describing what they were wearing but surely “plastic coveralls” or any other kind of PPE covering their clothing would have been noticed by the victim?
All we know is at least one was wearing a balaclava that slipped, exposing his face, as BA saw the struggle with CC which resulted in her murder.

BBM
“..detectives will show mug-shots of known criminals to heart-broken widower Charalambos Anagnostopoulos, known as Babis, who saw the face of his 20-year-old wife’s killer.”
“The killer had been wearing a motorcycle balaclava to hide his identity. But the face covering slipped down while he was struggling with the 20-year-old British mother.”
“‘We believe that the killer felt compelled to murder Caroline because she had seen his face and would identify him to the police.
‘But they spared husband Babis because they thought he was unconscious and unable to see.’”

“Police have described the crime as the ‘most heinous’ they have ever investigated, and say it was carried out with a ‘brutality’ that is rare in Greece.”

Grieving husband of British woman murdered in Greece to be shown mugshots of 30 suspects by police

 

[Patrick Jane]

I cannot find anything describing what they were wearing but surely “plastic coveralls” or any other kind of PPE covering their clothing would have been noticed by the victim?
All we know is at least one was wearing a balaclava that slipped, exposing his face, as BA saw him struggle with CC.

BBM
“..detectives will show mug-shots of known criminals to heart-broken widower Charalambos Anagnostopoulos, known as Babis, who saw the face of his 20-year-old wife’s killer.”
“The killer had been wearing a motorcycle balaclava to hide his identity. But the face covering slipped down while he was struggling with the 20-year-old British mother.”
“‘We believe that the killer felt compelled to murder Caroline because she had seen his face and would identify him to the police.
‘But they spared husband Babis because they thought he was unconscious and unable to see.’”

“Police have described the crime as the ‘most heinous’ they have ever investigated, and say it was carried out with a ‘brutality’ that is rare in Greece.”
https://todayuknews.com/uk-news/gri...-shown-mugshots-of-30-suspects-by-police/amp/

You're right. I haven't seen any reports of the husband describing the alleged perpetrators as wearing plastic coveralls or PPE.

 

[Dotta]

I cannot find anything describing what they were wearing but surely “plastic coveralls” or any other kind of PPE covering their clothing would have been noticed by the victim?
All we know is at least one was wearing a balaclava that slipped, exposing his face, as BA saw the struggle with CC which resulted in her murder.

BBM
“..detectives will show mug-shots of known criminals to heart-broken widower Charalambos Anagnostopoulos, known as Babis, who saw the face of his 20-year-old wife’s killer.”
“The killer had been wearing a motorcycle balaclava to hide his identity. But the face covering slipped down while he was struggling with the 20-year-old British mother.”
“‘We believe that the killer felt compelled to murder Caroline because she had seen his face and would identify him to the police.
‘But they spared husband Babis because they thought he was unconscious and unable to see.’”

“Police have described the crime as the ‘most heinous’ they have ever investigated, and say it was carried out with a ‘brutality’ that is rare in Greece.”

Grieving husband of British woman murdered in Greece to be shown mugshots of 30 suspects by police

But then - how can a balaclava slip?

 

[Patrick Jane]

But then - how can a balaclava slip?

according to the media reports* of what the husband supposedly said, this would be a half-face balaclava (neck gaiter) like the kind some motorcylists wear, not a full face balaclava (ski mask), and it slipped when the alleged murderer went on to the bed to overpower/immobilize the victim

*which I've posted earlier in the thread

 

[Dotta]

according to the media reports* of what the husband supposedly said, this would be a half-face balaclava (neck gaiter) like the kind some motorcylists wear, not a full face balaclava (ski mask), and it slipped when the alleged murderer went on to the bed to overpower/immobilize the victim

*which I've posted earlier in the thread

Thank you

 

[Orgona]

Thanks @Patrick Jane for explaining the video further for us.

 

[Orgona]

You're right. I haven't seen any reports of the husband describing the alleged perpetrators as wearing plastic coveralls or PPE.

It would be extremely strange to leave out those details, because that would be really something out of the ordinary and memorable even in a great shock after the murder. I mean, he did remember the balaclava. Unless LE asked him not to divulge that fact for some reason.

All IMHO

ETA: I’m also wondering about something in another post of you. Do you know how prevalent CCTV’s are in that neighborhood? Did any of the articles or videos you have seen to day talked about that?
Maybe the perpetrators weren’t seen on video because there are not many working CCTV around?
The other options are that they got lucky because the quality of which were in working order weren’t good enough to see anything at night on it, or there might not have been anybody approaching the house.

MOO

 

[Winterbells]

Does that mean that the window was pulled out from the inside? Hmm.

That would turn the whole story into someone taking the money and breaking out of the house.
Would it not?

 

[Winterbells]

The murderer had no problem allegedly finding the money in the monopoly box without benefit of any sunshine whatsoever.

Sorry, but I don't understand your point? Apparently the shutters were open when the money was taken from the Monopoly box.

 

[Winterbells]

Imagine trying to use gaffer tape, whilst wearing gloves.

 

[Orgona]

Imagine trying to use gaffer tape, whilst wearing gloves.

Yeah, that would be quiet a pain in the *advertiser censored**.
I can’t imagine not leaving a print on it either if used with bare hands.
This case is really puzzling.

 

[Lola68]

this is a policeman on a segment of a Greek morning show

at 2:30 they discuss that, as of yesterday, the husband has returned to live at the house

Do we know if the baby has returned with him?

 

[Lola68]

Another interesting snippet from an earlier article - Bruno the dog was kept in a crate (or wire cage) in the house at night. So he first had to be removed from the crate and then his lead attached. That is quite a bold move, to approach an unknown caged dog in a darkened house, IMO.



"Then they go up to the ground floor, where they find the family dog in a metal house. A medium-sized half-bred dog, very friendly, but starting to bark.

The robbers grab it from the cage and with the leash drag it to the built staircase that leads to the upper floors and in the second turn they pass the leash through the metal handrail. [...]

The time is 4.20 according to the testimony of the neighbor of the unfortunate couple who heard the barking and looked at the clock."

Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Η συγκλονιστική κατάθεση του άντρα της Καρολάιν

Is there a confirmed time of death of the dog? How do we know it was killed before CC? (Just thinking that dog barking may have been in response to people threatening CC and that's why he was silenced)

 

[Winterbells]

Do we know if the baby has returned with him?

There seems to be some confusion in the press about whether B has returned to his house to move his belongings out, or to remain there.

Γλυκά Νερά: Εγκαταλείπει για πάντα τη μεζονέτα ο πιλότος – Στο σημείο «μηδέν» οι έρευνες - ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

there's a lot here in this report

let me start by saying, according to this reporting, the husband has decided to soon "empty out" (i.e. move out) of the house, and move somewhere away from there.

there are no signs of forced entry on the window either

there's much more here and in the video, that I'll talk about later when I can

 

[Tortoise]

Is there a confirmed time of death of the dog? How do we know it was killed before CC? (Just thinking that dog barking may have been in response to people threatening CC and that's why he was silenced)

I don't think it's possible to pinpoint time of death with that much accuracy. There would have to be a time discrepancy of more than several hours because decomposition and things like rigor mortis and livor mortis are so variable, based on environmental conditions.

 

[Dotta]

What is the motive of this crime? If police finds the motive, they will solve the crime. Investigate and dig deeply and relentlessly! Perfect crimes dont exist - clues are waiting to be found. Dont give up!

 

[Patrick Jane]

It would be extremely strange to leave out those details, because that would be really something out of the ordinary and memorable even in a great shock after the murder. I mean, he did remember the balaclava. Unless LE asked him not to divulge that fact for some reason.

All IMHO

ETA: I’m also wondering about something in another post of you. Do you know how prevalent CCTV’s are in that neighborhood? Did any of the articles or videos you have seen to day talked about that?
Maybe the perpetrators weren’t seen on video because there are not many working CCTV around?
The other options are that they got lucky because the quality of which were in working order weren’t good enough to see anything at night on it, or there might not have been anybody approaching the house.

MOO

In the video Lambropoulos is referring to police analysis not only of CCTV in the neighborhood, but of the wider area. Even if there was spotty CCTV coverage in the immediate neighborhood, an analysis of the wider area would presumably show both the arrival and departure of the alleged perpetrators' car on CCTV. Why? Because there appears to be only one way in, via a main road, and there are businesses on this main road which have CCTV of the road. How do we know this? We know that this is the case because the investigative journalist crime show "Light in the Tunnel" obtained CCTV footage from this wider area. They speculated that perhaps they had located a possible car of the alleged perpetrators, with arrival around 3:30 a.m. (if I remember correctly) and departure around 5:30 a.m. (again, if I remember correctly). But based on Lambropoulos' reporting, it would appear that the police are dismissing this possibility.
Also, very early in the case there were multiple reports (which I posted in the thread) that CCTV had spotted a person, presumed to be a lookout, outside the maisonette at 5:30 a.m. Again if Lambropoulos' reporting is accurate, then it would appear that this person has been ruled out by police as a suspect, or perhaps the early reporting was incorrect.

 

[TopTop]

Sorry, but I don't understand your point? Apparently the shutters were open when the money was taken from the Monopoly box.

But would there be daylight outside? Perhaps there was a street light that helped light up the basement. Are we sure there was no light in the basement?