Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[everybodhi]

A journalist (Lambropoulos?) brought up one of the first questions we raised here in the thread in the early days after the murder made the news. It involves the tape on Babis, which did not apparently leave the redness etc... that comes after the covered skin is freed from the tape. Since I don't speak a word of Greek, I'm getting this from the poorly translated comments section, so I'm not sure, but I'm guessing L is saying in essence that the tape appeared to have been put on shortly before the police arrived, rather than a few hours before, when this tragedy started?

Question about baby Lydia: If her mum, Caroline, was killed at aprox 4:30, and her father, Babis, was unable to get to her or comfort her because he was tied up etc... until roughly 6:20, wouldn't the distraught almost-toddler have cried/screamed herself to sleep within 20 to 30 minutes of her mother's death? If only she spoke more than baby gibberish.

snipped
As for the tape, it was reported in the Ta Nea report I posted yesterday that the husband's πελματικό εντύπωμα was found on the tape. This is a little hard to translate into English. But it means something like "an impression of the sole of his foot."

I wonder if LE has more info on the tape, that they haven't yet disclosed. JMO

Speaking of tape, don’t forget the footprint, little if any DNA from the perps, no fibers from any PPE, just a footprint.
It’s mind boggling to come up with a good explanation of what happened in this case, to say the least.
jmo

 

[everybodhi]

But maybe nobody at all went through that window.

The invisible criminals who left not a trace?

“.. the only findings that the scientists of the forensic laboratories of the Hellenic Police are a fingerprint -unrelated to the crime- of a foreign worker and a... palmar imprint of the 32-year-old pilot on the adhesive tape with which he was tied to his face, body and legs.”

snipped
The window had no signs of forced entry, no glass was broken underneath, nor did the glass have any screwdriver marks
It was pulled out and resting on the floor, in the middle of the room in the basement and there were scattered discarded screws around.”

And also this:

“At the same time, according to the police editor of the newspapers "To Vima" and "Ta Nea", Vassilis Lambropoulos, the only findings that the scientists of the forensic laboratories of the Hellenic Police are a fingerprint -unrelated to the crime- of a foreign worker and a... palmar imprint of the 32-year-old pilot on the adhesive tape with which he was tied to his face, body and legs.”

And this:

“It is also noteworthy that no traces of gloves were found in this film (there may have been a pasting of part of plastic gloves, fibers of cloth, etc.) that were obviously worn by the robbers, since they left no other trace in the house.“

On the other hand somewhere in the article it says LE hasn’t found much biological evidence at the place of the other 10 robberies either.
Is this correct? Because then it would place the statements above in a different light again. Then the question would arise just how good the forensics team really is, or are those some genius robbers?

I’m sure that I’m not sure what to think.

All IMHO

 

[Dotta]

But maybe nobody at all went through that window.

Police did

 

[Orgona]

It seems certain that LE are withholding certain information from the public. So we have limited details. LE tells us information that LE wants us to know, and then there are occasionally leaks to the press.

If the victim was suffocated while face down on top of something, say a pillow, would there have been DNA evidence on her nails? What if her arm was being held down? /speculation

As for the tape, it was reported in the Ta Nea report I posted yesterday that the husband's πελματικό εντύπωμα was found on the tape. This is a little hard to translate into English. But it means something like "an impression of the sole of his foot."

I wonder if LE has more info on the tape, that they haven't yet disclosed. JMO

The robbers in PPE/plastic coveralls doesn't make sense to me, because, based on the reporting, the husband hasn't described them as being dressed this way. So one could use his own statements to rule out this hypothetical explanation for the lack of DNA at the scene. MOO

Re the CBM purple part:
This gives me a lot of pause. Jumping of this section thinking out loud:
Isn’t it a natural instinct to struggle agains suffocation?
If CC’s arms were hold down while suffocating wouldn’t there be signs, bruising on her skin from being forcibly held down?
If her hands weren’t bonded(as on the re-enactment video), wouldn’t natural instinct be trying to get out of her mouth or out of her airways whatever was obstructing it?
If someone heavy or muscular sat on top of her and she was face down hands next to her body while suffocating her with a pillow, would that leave signs of a struggle?
Although I vaguely remember she was suffocated with something in her mouth?
I have probably seen one to many episodes of Criminal Minds.

Re BBM:
Thanks for correcting the “palm print” in the original translation posted by me (made by a translation program) to “sole print”. That’s very interesting and even weirder. Unless in the chaos B stepped on one of the tapes removed by police.

All IMHO

 

[fraudqueen]

Silverlinging89.....I appreciate all the medical info you have provided. I personally would have passed out from fright. And whoever committed this horrible crime, I hope they are caught soon before they can do it again. MOO

 

[Dotta]

Can we compare delicate tape for skin used in hospitals to industrial tape with strong adhesive irritating substance? Old fashioned plaster can leave red marks on complexion for quite a long time.

.

 

[Silverlinging89]

I think the problem the mods had was actually with dredging things up from husband social media and a few side comments, that were a bit much, in the context of not being a POI. Descriptions of other crime scenes are a useful and valid discussion point, as to me, are technical discussions about bindings etc.

I think naturally there's curiosity, naturally there's bits of the story missing, but I truly think it is the case that there are plenty of online forums to chat through those kind of thoughts, but the rules for WS, and the attraction I have for example, is you can kind of examine evidence and handle things in a way that wouldn't injure the family who in all likelihood Google this stuff and could find it traumatising. It's a new phenomenon to be able to see what everyone is gossiping about/having your life tapped into by any old joe on the street, so I found the ethical bent here the attraction, as it felt more fair.

copied and pasted in full from the rules:

The "victim friendly" rule extends to family members of victims and suspects. Sleuthing family members, friends, or others who have not been officially designated by law enforcement or in mainstream media as a Person of Interest or suspect is not allowed (i.e. Sleuthing out this type of information, and publicly posting their personal information, including names, addresses, and background data -- even if it is public is not allowed and such posts will be removed, along with any posts that encourage such sleuthing).

This does not mean, however, that statements made by family members and other third parties cannot come into discussion as the facts of the case are reported in the media. Members may reasonably discuss what is said in MSM by them or about them, but do not make random accusations, insinuations, suggest their involvement, bash and attack them, or speculate negatively about them.

 

[Winterbells]

Re the CBM purple part:
This gives me a lot of pause. Jumping of this section thinking out loud:
Isn’t it a natural instinct to struggle agains suffocation?
If CC’s arms were hold down while suffocating wouldn’t there be signs, bruising on her skin from being forcibly held down?
If her hands weren’t bonded(as on the re-enactment video), wouldn’t natural instinct be trying to get out of her mouth or out of her airways whatever was obstructing it?
If someone heavy or muscular sat on top of her and she was face down hands next to her body while suffocating her with a pillow, would that leave signs of a struggle?
Although I vaguely remember she was suffocated with something in her mouth?
I have probably seen one to many episodes of Criminal Minds.

Re BBM:
Thanks for correcting the “palm print” in the original translation posted by me (made by a translation program) to “sole print”. That’s very interesting and even weirder. Unless in the chaos B stepped on one of the tapes removed by police.

All IMHO

Re: B’s sole print. I can see how a sole print could end up on the tape being wound around someone’s ankles. The tape is pulled from the roll first, leaving it dangling and available to catch on something before being positioned wherever it’s meant to go. If the tape initially stuck onto B’s sole, it could have then been peeled off (leaving an imprint) and repositioned as the binding continued.

 

[Lola68]

"Police are close to closing the investigation"
Εγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: «Είμαστε κοντά σε εξιχνίαση» – Ερωτήματα και αντιφατικά στοιχεία | ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

 

[Lola68]

"He also stressed that the fact that the perpetrators destroyed the cameras and removed the cards from the cameras, but on the other hand left the mobile phone next to the 32-year-old, is a question, as he acknowledged that it is unusual for such cases."

Εγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: «Είμαστε κοντά σε εξιχνίαση» – Ερωτήματα και αντιφατικά στοιχεία | ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

 

[everybodhi]

Can we compare delicate tape for skin used in hospitals to industrial tape with strong adhesive irritating substance? Old fashioned plaster can leave red marks on complexion for quite a long time.
.

I even checked this out as I am so convinced duct tape would not stick well to wet skin. I found this article Top 10 Surfaces that Are Problems for Duct Tape | ECHOtape

and then this YouTube demonstrating why duct tape is rubbish for kidnapping (you couldn't make it up!')

I don’t think a type or brand has been reported and we all just used “duct tape” in the thread, but there are many waterproof tapes like T-Rex, Clear Gorilla and Rescue tape which can be used in emergency boat or scuba tube repair while underwater, construction tapes are made to hold up over time in harsh weather, there’s tent tape and tapes to repair in-ground pool liner tears, which I’ve used and taped it on underwater, it held up all summer while I saved money to replace the liner.
Waterproof adhesive is rough on the skin, (even surgical tape turns me red), but if it isn’t waterproof, like regular duct tape, as Silverlinging’s video link shows, it can be worked off the mouth with saliva and jaw motion pretty quickly and easily, which would be instinctual to me once I was awake and safe, if you taped my mouth shut causing me to pass out, but that’s just me and jmo.
We don’t know what they used, some media even say rope, but there’s many videos showing how to escape tape restraints, hands taped together or to a chair. Obviously you’re at a big advantage if your hands are not behind your back, for many reasons.
The thing most tapes have in common is they all tear bi-directionally.
Here’s some tips if, god forbid, you are ever in this situation.
You can skip a lot of chit chat by starting after 3:00.

 

[Angleterre]

Does that mean that the window was pulled out from the inside? Hmm.

My first thoughts exactly because if taken out from the outside, they wouldn’t have then pushed it in and hoped for the best that it didn’t smash and it was lay neatly in the middle of the room I had read somewhere in one of the reports at the beginning. I will have to try and find it now !

 

[Angleterre]

But then - how can a balaclava slip?

Again my thoughts exactly
Sufficiently enough for the victims to ID the perpetrators? Not on all my years of Police murder investigation

 

[everybodhi]

Again my thoughts exactly
Sufficiently enough for the victims to ID the perpetrators? Not on all my years of Police murder investigation

This is another detail from early reports that changed; it wasn’t a balaclava, it was a neck gaiter.

 

[tayaway]

There are hoodless balaclavas. Even so, they are usually made of material that isn't going to sag, and say it was a worn out one, why would a thief/murderer wear it? From my own personal experience of having lived in the Canadian North, as an example, most balaclavas are snug to the point of annoying if say, you're unfortunate like me and are stuck wearing glasses.

ETA: Whoops! I missed this post, which makes mine irrelevant:

This is another detail from early reports that changed; it wasn’t a balaclava, it was a neck gaiter.
View attachment 298618

 

[Patrick Jane]

Re the CBM purple part:
This gives me a lot of pause. Jumping of this section thinking out loud:
Isn’t it a natural instinct to struggle agains suffocation?
If CC’s arms were hold down while suffocating wouldn’t there be signs, bruising on her skin from being forcibly held down?
If her hands weren’t bonded(as on the re-enactment video), wouldn’t natural instinct be trying to get out of her mouth or out of her airways whatever was obstructing it?
If someone heavy or muscular sat on top of her and she was face down hands next to her body while suffocating her with a pillow, would that leave signs of a struggle?
Although I vaguely remember she was suffocated with something in her mouth?
I have probably seen one to many episodes of Criminal Minds.

Re BBM:
Thanks for correcting the “palm print” in the original translation posted by me (made by a translation program) to “sole print”. That’s very interesting and even weirder. Unless in the chaos B stepped on one of the tapes removed by police.

All IMHO

Yes, Lambropoulos mentions this natural instinct to struggle against suffocation.

Which is why I'm wondering/speculating whether the lack of DNA on her nails means that she wasn't suffocated while face up, but rather with face down.

My understanding of the media report about suffocation was that suffocation occurred via a cloth or a cloth-like material, which JMO is consistent with a pillow. I don't remember anything about something being in her mouth, but I could be wrong. I read it as her airway being obstructed by the cloth-like material. But I'd have to read the original source in Greek to have a better understanding.

If the victim was asleep, and the murderer straddled her, grabbed the back of her head, and forced it down into the pillow, I don't see how there would be evidence of a struggle, except perhaps in her hair. Maybe LE have evidence of something like this, but are, of course, not disclosing it.

/speculation

 

[jenn83]

Strange that the baby never fell off the bed. Just sat there patiently waiting for mother to wake up. I don't think so.

 

[Winterbells]

"Police are close to closing the investigation"
Εγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: «Είμαστε κοντά σε εξιχνίαση» – Ερωτήματα και αντιφατικά στοιχεία | ΤΑ ΝΕΑ

Close to closing the investigation? What can this mean?

 

[lonetraveler]

Has there been anymore said about that reconstruction Patrick? Other journalists must have queried the obvious things like his shoes and Caroline unrestrained?

The fingernails are a real mystery, her hands must have been held or tied while she was suffocated, even if she was sound asleep she’d have woken up and at least managed to scratch surely and regardless who the murderer is you’d think there would be some trace of them, even B wouldn’t be able to explain his skin under her nails.

The tape is equally weird, same story, whether it’s truly a vicious gang or someone closer to home it’s still nearly impossible to use tape with gloves on and without them you’d never avoid leaving at least a partial print or 2.
I don’t buy robbers in PPE at all, or them doing a forensic clean up afterwards, I think if you’ve got shaved hair and gloves it’s quite possibly to not leave traces, but not when there’s a physical assault.

Found this case last night after returning from vacation. Stayed up late trying to catch up. I've obviously missed something concerning the husband's shoes. Could someone fill me in? Please?

 

[Patrick Jane]

Close to closing the investigation? What can this mean?

A better translation is that they're "close to a solution (to the mystery/case)"