Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #1

[song22]

What would be the point of kidnapping a blond girl, then making her look like one of them?

I thought the suggestion was that blond girls are kidnapped in order to earn money begging, as blond children are so unusual in that region, so bring in more money. Surely hiding her blond hair would make the kidnapping of her pointless.

If her hair was dyed to disguise her, then I don't think she was kidnapped specifically for being fair haired.... if she was kidnapped at all.

Maybe her hair was dyed because she really was one of the community and they treated her the same? if she was just a poor child from a neighbor or a poor gypsy child who happened to be blonde who they took in, they would just henna her hair like they all do.

 

[gitana1]

You know, I get the suggestion of albinism. Kid could be Gypsy with those features, actually, if she was not as fair.

Has this been posted? I know there's a screencap of it earlier on.

Here's a video of Maria as a toddler, with the dark red hair.

It seems like an ad for people interested in buying her - the Roma lady seems to insist on keeping her in front of the camera and throws the boy out of the way when he's about to block the shot.

Not an ad. Again, they kept this child. IMO, knowing the culture quite a bit, these people prized this child because she was unique. Also, while they may be rough with older kids (this horrible group, because most Gypsies aren't rough with kids of any age), it is unlikely they would be anything but gentle with a toddler that age, Gypsy or not.

I think this is a home video showing her off not selling her.

Absolutely appalled at this story, but, am thrilled the child has been rescued.

How many more children are out there? Thousands, IMO.

Rescued? If she was kidnapped, I agree. But I think she was probably sold or abandoned by some prostitute, which means her life would likely not have been any better and could have been worse. This kid knows these people as their parents and as horrible as it is, all their kids likely beg for a living. Millions of kids around the world live in horrible poverty and beg, or worse. Should this kid be rescued only because she is white? What about all the kids she thinks are her siblings who can't possibly be the offspring of her "parents".

Oh and it is true that thousands of Romanian Gypsy kids are trafficked to steal and beg, no way are their thousands of kidnapped kids hidden among Gypsies. If this child has been kidnapped by them, I will be shocked. ( I wouldnt be surprised, though, if a Natasha is identified as having given birth to this child and then claims the child was taken). I'd be surprised to hear of one, actual kidnapping case of a non-Gypsy by Roma.

Whether they are marrying old men or not, arranging marriage for a 13 year old (like shown in a documentary) would be a crime in a country like US.
Where 13 is below the age of consent in every state (I believe).

Well that's true. And some Gypsies in the US still marry off 13 year olds, against state laws.

not being snippy but she has as much chance of being from the US as any other place..jmo

I don't think so. It is much more logical that the child Originated somewhere closer, at least on the same continent. A child kidnapped from the US by a parent is likely to remain with that parent or relatives, not be sold or given to Third parties. A child kidnapped in the US by a stranger or non-relative would likely be dead or hidden in the US somewhere. Not easy to get a passport for a child who isn't yours.

 

[etamine]

What's with the woman in the video grabbing and tossing away the older child in the video?? Can anyone translate what it says on screen? This has absolutely grabbed me. I can't get her out of my head and I'm sure there are so many more like her out there.

It's because the little boy blocked the shot of Maria. You can see she's fine with him stood to the side - the grabbing and tossing happens the second he steps in front of Maria.

The text is "Τάμα προς τον Πατέρα Ο Σάλής Νίκος" - I don't speak greek but translation sites are telling me this means "Votive offering to the Father the Salis Nikos" or "Oblation to the Father by Nick Salis". I'd assume "Σάλής Νίκος" is a name (Nikos Salis).

 

[gitana1]

Wow! Thank you Gitana! That was a lot of great information.

This case is so fascinating. I sure hope that there are some clear answers soon for this little girl and for the other children, too. I do think that it's interesting to see how the whole thing is spun in the media with the "blonde angel". it really does illustrate the power of being white/western. it is just assumed that she must be from the west, when she could be a child of local poverty just like the other darker kids. there are poor blonde gypsies and poor blonde Eastern Europeans/Balkans.

I knew about the importance placed on virtue with the Roma. but I am surprised to hear that there isn't a problem with sex trafficking. But what about trafficking outsiders? Wouldn't that be different because thee are such strong negative feelings about non-Roma?

I'm have to confess that I pride myself on being very tolerant and sensitive of diversity, but it's been harder for me with the Roma. I appreciate all of your insight as it stretches my thinking a bit more.

Maybe her hair was dyed because she really was one of the community and they treated her the same? if she was just a poor child from a neighbor or a poor gypsy child who happened to be blonde who they took in, they would just henna her hair like they all do.

We were posting similar thoughts at the same time. She does have a face I have seen among some Gypsies. But fair skin with blue eyes AND blonde hair is pretty rare. I have never seen that combination.

As to being able to be involved with the trafficking of non-Gypsy women because
Of negative feelings they have toward them, that is certainly possible.

And I don't blame you for the difficulty being tolerant toward the Roma. All we ever here is about groups like these, who engage in criminal activity. We never hear about the many Gypsy tribes, clans and families like mine who have been hardworking, non-criminal people for hundreds of years. Those tend to stay under the radar. Or no one knows they are Gypsies. My family
Have travelled for decades, performig around the world. They don't advertise themselves as Gypsies.

 

[gxm]

Well if she is taught to beg, then I imagine they didn't want her to look happy.

It doesn't seem to have been confirmed that she was taught to beg. But she clearly had all the happiness of childhood drained out of her.

"It was bad living conditions, poor hygiene. The girl was found in a state of neglect, both physically and psychologically," he said. "We don't have any other information, if this girl was forced to work or to beg on streets."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/20/world/europe/greece-mystery-girl/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[momtective]

The close proximity of Albania to Larissa, Greece where she was found, leads me to think she may be Albanian. Child trafficking in Albania is unbelievable! Just google "the sell of Albanian children" One guy sold his kid for a TV!
If she is Albanian and was sold, she will probably never know who her real family is.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/13/world/for-albanians-it-s-come-to-this-a-son-for-a-tv.html

Sold Children - Albania - YouTube

 

[jjenny]

She isn't a gypsy. Even people who pretended to be her parents admitted as much, by claiming she is "Bulgarian" or had a "Canadian" father.

 

[gitana1]

It doesn't seem to have been confirmed that she was taught to beg. But she clearly had all the happiness of childhood drained out of her.

"It was bad living conditions, poor hygiene. The girl was found in a state of neglect, both physically and psychologically," he said. "We don't have any other information, if this girl was forced to work or to beg on streets."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/20/world/europe/greece-mystery-girl/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Every Gypsy kid from that group would be found to be in state of neglect. They are very poor and their kids are unkempt. Plus, these people, separated from most of society via their culture and repression, for hundreds of years, (almost none of these people have an education), are still where we were in the 1800's - poor children begin working young, they don't have Romani child labor laws, everyone marries young and they all die young.

That's the situation with these people. They are far different from an average Greek person or child. It's like a mini-third world nation in the middle of the industrialized West.

If we grabbed a random kid from Brooklyn, in 1908, the kid would likely be similar to the state of most of these children. This particular group of Gypsies has not evolved, overall. The reasons are complex and not all of it is due to their own actions or lack thereof. Many who try to break in to the larger society, by getting an education and trying to find honest work, are just denied. If these are Romanian Gypsies, for example, they come from one of the most repressive dictatorships in contemporary European history. And Gypsies were especially repressed and brutalized under Nicolae Ceaușescu. It's hard to come back from that and they remain incredibly hated back home.

I don't condone or excuse the exploitation of children, but it's often not that black or white. There are reasons that are not mired in evil, even thought those reasons are not justification.

 

[gitana1]

She isn't a gypsy. Even people who pretended to be her parents admitted as much, by claiming she is "Bulgarian" or had a "Canadian" father.

I agree. Their statements, along with her overall look, seem to evidence that. But I did want to show why I get the thought and how it could be a slim possibility.

 

[gxm]

Wait, she was just taken from the only family she has ever known, in a raid. How is a child supposed to look when armed men raid her home, handcuff her family and drag her off, people who do not speak the same language as her and can't explain what is happening? But even if they could, under those circumstances, is she supposed to be smiling? Have you seen kids right after they have been taken into foster care? Or taken via a raid?





I don't think this kid is likely to be a Gypsy, given the statements of the family she was with and her combination of features and coloring would be unusual. (Plus, she just really looks Slavic to me). But I suppose anything is possible.

She's not smiling in the earlier picture either, and she appears to be struggling. If the family members want to impress the public with how much she was loved, where are the happy pictures? I do not believe she was well loved or well cared for. Hopefully she will be reunited or placed with a family that loves her.

 

[gxm]

Every Gypsy kid from that group would be found to be in state of neglect. They are very poor and their kids are unkempt. Plus, these people, separated from most of society via their culture and repression, for hundreds of years, (almost none of these people have an education), are still where we were in the 1800's - poor children begin working young, they don't have Romani child labor laws, everyone marries young and they all die young.

That's the situation with these people. They are far different from an average Greek person or child. It's like a mini-third world nation in the middle of the industrialized West.

If we grabbed a random kid from Brooklyn, in 1908, the kid would likely be similar to the state of most of these children. This particular group of Gypsies has not evolved, overall. The reasons are complex and not all of it is due to their own actions or lack thereof. Many who try to break in to the larger society, by getting an education and trying to find honest work, are just denied. If these are Romanian Gypsies, for example, they come from one of the most repressive dictatorships in contemporary European history. And Gypsies were especially repressed and brutalized under Nicolae Ceaușescu. It's hard to come back from that and they remain incredibly hated back home.

I don't condone or excuse the exploitation of children, but it's often not that black or white. There are reasons that are not mired in evil, even thought those reasons are not justification.

I have seen happy children from desperate conditions. You just posted pictures of some. From what I've seen so far, this little girl was seriously neglected, to the point of abuse IMO.

 

[gitana1]

It looks like they are Greek Gypsies:

Gypsies stroll about prefabricated homes in their camp, many of them smiling and seemingly carefree. But there is worry and resentment here.
Their community is at the center of a child abduction case, with a Gypsy, or Roma, couple accused of abducting a blonde, blue-eyed girl who is thought to be about 4 years old.
The Roma, a poor people in a country devastated by an economic crisis, try to make a living in the camp on the outskirts of the central town of Farsala by selling fruits, carpets, blankets, baskets and shoes at local markets. They say they are already considered by some to be social outcasts, thieves and beggars.
Now, they fear they will be stigmatized as child traffickers. The president of the local Roma community, Babis Dimitriou, hopes there is no backlash against the 2,000 Roma living in the community.
The case "doesn't reflect on all of us," he told The Associated Press on Sunday.http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/greek-gypsies-worried-child-abduction-case-20628837

Much more at link.

 

[gitana1]

She's not smiling in the earlier picture either, and she appears to be struggling. If the family members want to impress the public with how much she was loved, where are the happy pictures? I do not believe she was well loved or well cared for. Hopefully she will be reunited or placed with a family that loves her.

What earlier picture? All the pictures taken of her that we have are from when she was taken. There is video of her as a toddler with a pacifier in her mouth and yes, she isn't smiling in that video. She looks well fed and dressed to me though, and I don't know of any toddler who is constantly smiling. And struggling? I just saw a baby wandering around, being encouraged to dance for the camera.

Finally, the family probably did not release that video. The authorities likely did. If they want to show how happy she was, they will likely show other photos or video.

I have seen happy children from desperate conditions. You just posted pictures of some. From what I've seen so far, this little girl was seriously neglected, to the point of abuse IMO.

Yeah, the kids smiling in those photos were all older kids who know how to smile for the camera.

All I have seen are three pictures from after she was taken, a statement by the authorities who were presented with a very white child living with what they think are scummy Gypsies, and a video of a kid being encouraged to dance, with an older kid roughly thrown out of the shot when he gets in the way. It's just not enough for me to conclude she was seriously neglected to the point of abuse, except in the sense that if she was forced to beg, I think every kid forced to beg is being abused to a degree. If it's enough for you, I understand. But knowing what I know about the culture, little children this are rarely intentionally neglected or abused by any Gypsy clan. Even by a group like these people.

 

[gxm]

It looks like they are Greek Gypsies:Much more at link.

From your link:

The couple accused of abducting the girl had used multiple identities to register 14 children in three different cities, of whom only four have been identified, Halatsis said. An examination of the birthdates of the children shows that the woman, at one point, was giving birth every four months, he said. Overall, the couple received 2,500 euros ($3,420) per month in state assistance.

IMO, there is no way all the children are theirs. Where did they get them? Were the children abducted or are they castaways?

 

[gitana1]

From your link:

The couple accused of abducting the girl had used multiple identities to register 14 children in three different cities, of whom only four have been identified, Halatsis said. An examination of the birthdates of the children shows that the woman, at one point, was giving birth every four months, he said. Overall, the couple received 2,500 euros ($3,420) per month in state assistance.

IMO, there is no way all the children are theirs. Where did they get them? Were the children abducted or are they castaways?

Not abducted. All will be relations or kids from other Gypsy families who have been trafficked to pay off a debt or to send hone money to the family. It is remarkable that they have a non-Gypsy child living with them. Although that has been a stereo-type for centuries, it is a myth. I know of not even one, documentable kidnapping of a non-Gypsy kid by Gypsies. If they stole this child, it will be a first. Since the family is involved in drugs and guns, my feeling is sex trafficking of Natashas is connected and this child was likely connected to that.

Regardless, these people are idiots for taking and keeping this kid and my bet is that if they end up facing real time, they might ultimately tell the truth about how they got her.

Eta: Besides being alone, without family,being confined is the single greatest fear of most Gypsies.

 

[gitana1]

My best bet is a drug addicted prostitute sold her as a baby for the next high, or she was taken by a pimp from the mother and given or sold to these people.

 

[etamine]

The Roma couple she was found with are Kristos Salis (the name on the video of her) and Eleftheria Dimopoulou.

There's been pictures of her room released, which is apparently the only bedroom in the house.

Quote from the neighbour saying she was treated specially:

Neighbours said the couple gave Maria special treatment because of her blonde hair. One woman, washing children’s clothes in a bathtub, said: ‘She was treasured because she was so beautiful . . . We all loved her.k

Also, some stills from a video of her dancing inside the roma camp. The woman is Maria Dimitriou, 21, grand-daughter of the roma camp’s leader.

Dimpoulou is the woman in the prior video who throws the boy.

• Police said they found a handgun and balaclava at the house where they found Maria.
• Around 5,000 inquiries have been made about the girl. Eight were described as promising, including four from the USA, and others from Sweden, France, Canada and Poland.
• The arrested couple’s family have defended two unsettling videos of Maria, saying she was not exploited. In the first video, from two years ago, she sucks on a dummy as she is made to twirl for the camera, being pushed and manhandled by a laughing Dimopoulou.

All found here

 

[killarney rose]

She is probably scared and confused at being taken from the only home she can remember. Of course she looks sad.

When looking for possible matches to missing girls, if the missing child does not have that cowlick in front, then it won't be her. They are there from the time their hair grows in as an infant. And hers is very prominent. I was looking at the suggestions for matches posted here last night and right away, no, because the child doesn't have that cowlick. There is no way this little girl can have bangs hanging across her forehead with that cowlick.

 

[sfbaynancydrew]

Her bedroom is certainly cleaner than my kids'.

 

[Ellmau]

There's been pictures of her room released, which is apparently the only bedroom in the house...
Quote from the neighbour saying she was treated specially:

Interesting. I wonder if possibly someone could have been paying them to keep her?