Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #1

[Tugela]

Or maybe they know she's not four?

They estimated the age of the kid as 5-6 based on the state of her teeth development.

 

[txsvicki]

It is really interesting to hear that Maria isn't asking for anyone. Maybe she's trained to say very little to outsiders, but I was wondering who, if anyone, she calls mama, or if the women of the camp care for all the kids together. Also, police really didn't find that much in the camp. Not much dope and only a few guns.

 

[vlpate]

DNA testing doesn't tell you how old anyone is.

lol I knew that but it didn't need to make sense to me - I was skimming and not at all familiar with the case. Thanks!

"DNA tests revealed the child, known as Maria and aged about four, was not related to the couple she lived with."

I read:

"DNA tests revealed the child known as Maria WAS aged about four"

Skimming bad.

 

[vlpate]

It is really interesting to hear that Maria isn't asking for anyone. Maybe she's trained to say very little to outsiders, but I was wondering who, if anyone, she calls mama, or if the women of the camp care for all the kids together. Also, police really didn't find that much in the camp. Not much dope and only a few guns.

I THINK I read she was only saying a few words in two different languages. I'd have to look again for which languages. Apparently they've had her since she was a baby, so I'm not sure if she can tell authorities anything useful. It's worrisome that she's not talking like a normal 5-6 year old. This can be indicative of a child being constantly told to keep secrets with dire consequences if they do not. Sometimes it's easier just to say nothing.

 

[vlpate]

They estimated the age of the kid as 5-6 based on the state of her teeth development.

You are correct, my bad. So maybe they know Maddie is not 5-6?

 

[Inana]

I THINK I read she was only saying a few words in two different languages. I'd have to look again for which languages. Apparently they've had her since she was a baby, so I'm not sure if she can tell authorities anything useful. It's worrisome that she's not talking like a normal 5-6 year old. This can be indicative of a child being constantly told to keep secrets with dire consequences if they do not. Sometimes it's easier just to say nothing.

I read that she speaks in an "obscure" Roma dialect and understands some greek. The children's home she is in said they communicate mostly by sign language.

 

[Inana]

I don't have a link, but she is so clearly stressed in the first photo of her, her little forehead scrunched with worry. But there is another photo of her after she'd had a bath, her hair was down, pyjamas on and you could see a trace of smile on her face. Can't wait to see one of her smiling.

Can't help but hope that this will turn out for the best for Maria. I'll bet there have been thousands of offers to adopt her already, from all over the world.

 

[pieper4]

I enjoy learning about cultures. Probably why I chose the major I did in college. This is a pretty solid site for anyone else who enjoys learning some basics about the Romani culture: http://www.rroma.org/. I am sure there are many other sites, since the Roma culture is very widespread and diversified.

I grew up with a very large Hungarian family in the Los Angeles area who fled Hungary in 1956. My sister later married into the family. While the parents were devout Catholics, I always assumed that precluded them from being 'gypsies' (which was often discussed by the kids in the family). Apparently not at all the case, so some pieces about the family's activities and behaviors are now falling into place for me as I do some overdue research.

No bearing for some perhaps, but rather than impose our personal cultural views on others, I think it makes sense to understand the culture in which this blond child has lived. Clearly, if she was stolen, bought, abused, or neglected, a crime has been committed. But to me it makes sense to learn about the history of the ethnicity rather than just assume long-standing stereotypes. I appreciate all input/insights of those who know far more than I do about the Roma.

Aside from solving the mystery surrounding this child and assuring she isn't a victim, I can't get past the amount of government money the family receives... yet they remain in poverty, purportedly sending children out to beg or perhaps steal. There seems to me to be a trail to be followed here. I know Greece's economy is a mess and the costs high, but still? Something isn't adding up to me. Do Roma groups pool their money, such as some Asian immigrant families do? Are there tithes or other costs to remain in good standing within the community?
At the least, the 'parents' here seem to be unwilling to be honest. Distrust of non-Romas at play, or are they reacting akin to how a welfare abuser in the US might when they got caught claiming benefits they aren't legally entitled to?

This child has a hard look in her eyes. That worries me tremendously whether she's 4, 5, 6 or 15.

 

[MsFacetious]

I'm still seeing people thinking this is Maddie.
I know this has been covered in this thread, but for anyone who might just be quickly checking in....

Law enforcement has said they are looking at all possible missing children who are a match.
They have already said that the girl found in Greece is NOT Maddie.

For that to be Maddie the following would have had to happen:

Maddie would have to appear to be HALF her age. Maria is 5 or 6 years old.
Maddie's nose and chin would have needed to change shape.

Maddie's hair, eyelashes and eyebrows would have needed to lighten, while generally they darken.
Maddie's eyes would have had to change color and shape.

Maddie's pupils would have needed to grow, rather than shrinking as they normally do with age.
Maddie's coloboma would have needed to disappear... something I can't prove has ever happened.

Maddie:

Maria:

 

[MsFacetious]

I don't have a link, but she is so clearly stressed in the first photo of her, her little forehead scrunched with worry. But there is another photo of her after she'd had a bath, her hair was down, pyjamas on and you could see a trace of smile on her face. Can't wait to see one of her smiling.

Can't help but hope that this will turn out for the best for Maria. I'll bet there have been thousands of offers to adopt her already, from all over the world.

I believe her face is scrunched up like that because she is reacting to the flash of the camera.
I'm guessing she has not had her picture taken before and didn't even know to expect the flash.

She certainly may have been distressed, but I don't think the look on her face was only from that. :twocents:

 

[jjenny]

I doubt they are going to find the real parents. She is probably from some village somewhere is Eastern Europe where her disappearance was a local affair that happened years ago and is mostly forgotten.

I really don't think parents would have forgotten their child being kidnapped. Even if they live in Eastern Europe.

 

[revampz]

This is as suss as......I bet these children are being used for some form of benefit fraud.....that exact thing happened here in Australia, there was a couple claiming benefits for 7 children and only 2 were there own.

 

[jjenny]

This is as suss as......I bet these children are being used for some form of benefit fraud.....that exact thing happened here in Australia, there was a couple claiming benefits for 7 children and only 2 were there own.

That's already known. She had 14 children registered to her (six of which were supposedly born within 10 months period), she was getting payments from the government for each child.

 

[Tugela]

I believe her face is scrunched up like that because she is reacting to the flash of the camera.
I'm guessing she has not had her picture taken before and didn't even know to expect the flash.

She certainly may have been distressed, but I don't think the look on her face was only from that. :twocents:

By the time a face reacts to the flash, the picture is already taken ages ago.

If she could react while the flash is going off, she has a great career as a fighter pilot ahead of her, because her reactions would be light years ahead of any other human being.

 

[Tugela]

I really don't think parents would have forgotten their child being kidnapped. Even if they live in Eastern Europe.

They wouldn't have forgotten, but it would be a local thing, there wouldn't be a nationwide search going on for the kid, as you might see in North America. A lot of those rural villages are pretty isolated. The authorities making a connection between what happened in their local area to what happened in another country may not happen. Once the kid is out of the local area they might as well be on another planet.

It is the main reason why trafficking is such a problem in that part of the world.

 

[zwiebel]

Are we certain about the benefits the family were getting? Greece is having so many economic problems at the moment some non-Roma citizens are having to ask for their children to be put into care, or be adopted. There has been a lot of media about it.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/dec/28/greek-economic-crisis-children-victims

Are we supposed to believe Greek authorities pay benefits to Roma that they don't pay for non-Roma families? It doesn't add up to me.

Germany is the wealthiest country in The European Union, Greece is the poorest. Yet even a German family here with that many kids wouldn't get those benefits. I really doubt the veracity of this story.

ETA: Story linked tells of man with 10 children who received €460 every TWO Months.

 

[mrsward]

‘They had another five children for sale at the time
" (daily mail)

If this is true ( doubtful)
1 child i can get my head roun

I dont believe someone gave birth to 6 children and then woke up one day and decided to sell them.. so who and where are those 5 other children..

 

[Elainera]

Interesting comments by Director of Smile of the Child, Costas Yannopoulos:

"Mr Yannopoulos said evidence so far suggested she had been trafficked."

"The couple have told various stories – that she was abandoned by a Bulgarian woman, or found on a rubbish tip – but Mr Yannopoulos said it is more likely she is from Scandinavia."

(bbm)

From here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ria-Gypsy-couple-court-abduction-charges.html

I think the only way to come close to finding out what happened is if the bio-mom steps forward and DNA testing matches her with the mother.

If she is still alive. Who knows what happened to her. She could have been trafficked herself and died, and the child was passed on.

I dunno ... Maria was found 6 days ago, and so far nobody has come forward? This is not a "sighting" of a missing child on some grainy security camera, the pictures are very clear. If my child had been kidnapped and I saw these photos I would recognize her, even after 3 or 4 years. Don't you think? I would recognize my child's eyes.

 

[Elainera]

Detectives revealed they have been unable to trace 10 other children registered to the couple, who claim to have had 14 kids.

They were trying to establish whether the missing youngsters were stolen and then trafficked for cash, remaining in the pair’s hands for only a short time.

Another explanation being considered is that the children never existed, but were invented in order to claim welfare handouts.

Dimopoulou, 40, and Salis, 39, were raking in an astonishing £7,000 a month in benefits from the strapped Greek welfare system.

A Greek police source said: “There are so many mysteries to be solved besides establishing the real identity of Maria.

“We need to find out where these other children are. They have just vanished."

bbm

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/346479/Maria-abduction-pair-raked-in-benefits-cash

Vanished? Oh dear I hope they were only "invented".

 

[Cappuccino]

They probably were invented. I've never heard of the Roma being involved in wholesale child killing. Benefit fraud, yes but mass child killing, no.