Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #1

[ATasteOfHoney]

nahh. this girl has a very distinct look; pale pale skin, squinty green eyes, white blonde hair. looks super scandinavian to me

Noooo! She does not look Scandinavian at all----> she looks Eastern Bloc like Latvian, Chechen, Georgian, or maybe even Polish.

 

[airplanelamp]

Noooo! She does not look Scandinavian at all----> she looks Eastern Bloc like Latvian, Chechen, Georgian, or maybe even Polish.

I completely agree.

 

[Cappuccino]

She looks European. Forget about trying to identify her country of origin by her looks, there are children who look like her in every single European country.

Scandinavian and Germanic tribes, (especially the Vikings and the Saxons), raped and pillaged their way all across the continent back in the day. I'm not sure what effect the pillaging had, but the raping has left blonde, blue eyed populations everywhere.

It would be more to the point if people could identify which countries this particular Roma family had travelled from.

 

[ktgirl]

This little girl looks so much like me when I was a child & how my cousin's daughter looks now. I am extremely fair like this child.My hair was redder than this child's (more strawberry blonde, but had I been in the sun a lot, or probably would have been a lot lighter, like this child's). Also, my eyes are blue-green - they look green in some lights and blue in others. Interesting to note the difference of opinion on this girl's eyes.

My dad's father was from Ruthenia/Galicia - not Spain but the region between Ukraine & Poland, in the Carpathian Mountains. My dad's mom was Swedish. (My mom is a Florida Cracker- yes, it's a real group, just as Wikipedia.) This girl seriously looks like she could be a member of my dad's side of the family. I think this child is probably of light-skinned Slavic descent (Estonia, Poland, parts of Ukraine, Russian -particularly maybe of Finno-Ugric descent, Belarus, perhaps Scandinavia)...yeah, I know that doesn't really narrow it down much.

As for why this little girl didn't get darker in the sun, those of us who are very very fair skinned CANNOT tan. Like at all. I burn in a tanning booth for 5 minutes. I can't "build up" a tan. Even with prolonged sun exposure, I just burn and get freckles. No tan. My dermatologist even told me someone with my heritage needs to avoid prolonged exposure to the sun between 10-2. This child is so fair that I doubt she can tan and get darker. But prolonged exposure surely should have given her some freckles (even with high number sunscreen I often don't burn but do freckle). My skin on my feet is just slightly darker than the straps on my flip-flops, so I guess I can technically get a tan - just not one anyone else would notice or call a tan. This child must have been well-covered (hat maybe? And long sleeves?) or perhaps she stood in doorways or in shade or something. Even as a little kid I remember that other fair-skinned had freckles because their moms and dads allowed them outside in the sun more than I was allowed because of my pediatrician's warnings to my mom, which were the same as my dermatologists. You can definitely get freckles/skin damage at a young age. Since they were using her since she was blonde and fair-skinned, perhaps they were also bleaching her freckles? (yes, it's a real thing- just google "bleaching freckles" - women have been doing it for ages in places where fair skinned is or was prized- there are home remedies that have been used for centuries and newer chemical/dermatological ones).

I know at times who I've been in places where such fair skin and hair is really rare, people have been super interested in me. In southern Spain, where most people are dark (largely due to the Moorish control of southern Spain from 711-1492) women would ask to touch my skin and hair. I had random kids follow me and ask the same thing. My fair-skinned family member also had this happen in India. I went to a party as a teen at a middle eastern friend's home (where I was the only non-middle eastern person) and the other girls asked to play with and touch my hair and they asked me if I bleached my skin (I was surprised to learn this was common practice among some of them and that they tried to stay out of the sun to avoid getting darker). The girl who does my pedicures is from Vietnam and is always telling me she loves my skin when she does my toes. She told me in Vietnam light skin is prized because it it's indicative that you don't work outside - you're an upper class "lady" rather than a peasant. The crazy former dictator of Lybia, Gaddafi, had a harem of fair-skinned Eastern-European nurses (mostly from Poland, Russia, & Ukraine- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/28/galyna-kolotnytska-gadhaf_n_829093.html).

Just trying to add some insight into why this family would want a fair skinned child, especially a very fair-skinned child. I haven't been to Greece, but I'd assume such a fair child would be an exotic possession, so to speak, and worth well for begging & unfortunately, this exoticism would probably help her earn a lot of she was sold as a wife later on or put to work as a prostitute. I am so glad she's been rescued. I'd gladly raise her (heck, she even looks like she is related to me).

Sorry for rambling....

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

No. She is not Swedish or Albanian decedent. OR other Baltic.
She is Norwegian. Probably missing from a part of Norway 3 years ago or so. When she was year or two old. Maybe Olsen Norway. probably taken from a stroller.

Do you have a street address and make/model of the stroller, please?

j/k


:floorlaugh:

 

[jjenny]

Noooo! She does not look Scandinavian at all----> she looks Eastern Bloc like Latvian, Chechen, Georgian, or maybe even Polish.

I don't think there are many blond haired blue eyed Chechens or Georgians.

 

[ktgirl]

Someone upthread (sorry, can't remember who) commented that she doesnt fit the name Maria.

In the US, we often think Maria=Hispanic (or perhaps Greek).

Maria is actually the version of the name Mary in Albanian, Corsican, Dutch, Estonian, Finnish, German, Greek, Icelandic, Italian, Kiswahili, Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, & Scandinavian. (via Wikipedia for "Mary (given name)")


The Ukrainian version of Mary is Maryia, which is pretty close to Maria.

So.....the name Maria fits her pretty well, IMO. It could possibly even be her "real" name. My great-grandmother, who was from the Carpathian Mountains (along the border between Ukraine & Poland) was named Maria.

And to throw in a pop culture reference, Maria is also the name of the Austrian novice-turned-governess-turned-Mrs. Von Trapp in The Sound of Music, who of course was also a real person.

 

[Brightbird]

The hair thing was the same in my family as well. Born dark, turned blonde and by the 40s back to dark.

Same with me. Born with almost black hair, turned very blonde (not white), but by age 5 or so I had brown hair that bleaches in the sun. My half-sister is blonde and has stayed that way even though no-one in her family is blonde (that we know of). But "Maria" is so white-blonde and fair, I really don't think that strawberry blonde (as in the video) was ever her real colour. I could see her hair darkening a bit as she gets older though.

ETA: After Googling red haired babies turning blonde, seems it is more common than I thought.

 

[gitana1]

She doesn't look Bulgarian to me.

You are probably right but there are some Bulgarians who look like her. I will post some pics. in a minute.

I don't think this poor girl will turn out to be a high-profile kidnap victim. DNA from those victims' families is very likely on file. If there were a match, the police wouldn't need to make a public appeal. I reckon she was taken from a poor family, perhaps in a place where LE was too ineffective or corrupt to do much. (IOW, I'd be looking eastward).


The McCanns need to butt out. This ain't about them.

I agree as to the first paragraph. As to the second, should the Needham family butt out too? Can we keep the McCann bashing on Maddie's thread?

 

[LarkBunting]

Re her name, I have a cousin in Norway named Marie, which is pronounced almost as Maria...like, Marie-eh. She is blue eyed & blonde with fair skin.
I would think upon kidnapping a baby, or however this little girl was obtained, the kidnappers would likely change her name.
It does look like her hair was dyed brown and is growing out. Good observation to the PP who mentioned that.
I hope this little one gets her true identity back.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[leilarose68]

Noooo! She does not look Scandinavian at all----> she looks Eastern Bloc like Latvian, Chechen, Georgian, or maybe even Polish.

huh? google search 'finnish kids' and you'll find tons of children that look exactly like her
also the people from the countries you named typically have tanner skin and darker hair... poland being the exception
anyway, the people running the investigation seem to think she could be scandinavian

 

[sfbaynancydrew]

The hair thing was the same in my family as well. Born dark, turned blonde and by the 40s back to dark.

My brother was like this. Born with almost black hair that fell out and came in snow-white blonde.

He favored the German 1/2 of our heritage. In our family though the baby's dark hair completely FELL OUT and was replaced by peach fuzz that grew into white-blonde hair.

Her hair looks dyed to me and I do not think she was taken at birth, closer to age 2 (gaging the total hair growth). Otherwise why would they dye her hair? And the stories of her being "given" also sound bogus...again..why conceal her identity with the dye?

This is a crazy story. In any case, I'm glad she's alive and relatively healthy. I hope that the kidnappers were telling the truth that they loved her and took good care of her. I really do.

 

[sfbaynancydrew]

Has it been revealed what language or languages this child speaks or understand?

Yes, she only speaks Roma. She was most likely kidnapped pre-verbal and grew up knowing nothing else.

Link for reporting on her language:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-parents-among-hundreds-who-2469117

"Maria only speaks the gypsy language Roma."

 

[jjenny]

Police don't really appear to have any evidence that this child was kidnapped. She could have been purchased from some down on her luck woman. I think if she was actually kidnapped and there was a missing persons report on her, it would be much easier to find her parents.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

huh? google search 'finnish kids' and you'll find tons of children that look exactly like her
also the people from the countries you named typically have tanner skin and darker hair... poland being the exception
anyway, the people running the investigation seem to think she could be scandinavian

alrighty then...

 

[gitana1]

OT, but I'm so sad that she was found with a Roma family. In my view, the Roma are the most universally and unfairly maligned group in all of Europe (even in light of all of the national and ethnic prejudices found there). I can't imagine that the child is of American origin. I worry that this will just add to the prejudices and stereotypes about them.

Me too.

You are even cooler than I thought. And I thought you were pretty cool before.

:blushing:

Well, if the parents have several different stories about where the child came from I don't know why their word should be taken about Bulgaria either.

It shouldn't. It is cultural for Roma such as these to never tell the truth to non-Roma, or Gadje. It is probably, then, unlikely she is Bulgarian.

Long detailed article with great photos..
Activities of some Roma...

"Roma gangs have been accused of trafficking hundreds of children across Europe to steal

Roma gangs have been accused of trafficking hundreds of children to and from countries including Britain to mug and steal as part of an ‘international criminal network’.

Boys and girls as young as 10 are being used to make more than £2000 a month each, through crimes organised by Fagin-like bosses.

Around 200 children are thought to be involved, with much of their tax free income being smuggled back to Romania to buy property.

Snipped by me for space.

While this is all true, the children they traffic are Roma children. Most are relations of the people trafficking. Kidnapping a child from outside the culture is seriously rare and abnormal.

This little girl looks so much like me when I was a child & how my cousin's daughter looks now. I am extremely fair like this child.My hair was redder than this child's (more strawberry blonde, but had I been in the sun a lot, or probably would have been a lot lighter, like this child's). Also, my eyes are blue-green - they look green in some lights and blue in others. Interesting to note the difference of opinion on this girl's eyes.

I know at times who I've been in places where such fair skin and hair is really rare, people have been super interested in me. In southern Spain, where most people are dark (largely due to the Moorish control of southern Spain from 711-1492) women would ask to touch my skin and hair. I had random kids follow me and ask the same thing. My fair-skinned family member also had this happen in India. I went to a party as a teen at a middle eastern friend's home (where I was the only non-middle eastern person) and the other girls asked to play with and touch my hair and they asked me if I bleached my skin (I was surprised to learn this was common practice among some of them and that they tried to stay out of the sun to avoid getting darker). The girl who does my pedicures is from Vietnam and is always telling me she loves my skin when she does my toes. She told me in Vietnam light skin is prized because it it's indicative that you don't work outside - you're an upper class "lady" rather than a peasant. The crazy former dictator of Lybia, Gaddafi, had a harem of fair-skinned Eastern-European nurses (mostly from Poland, Russia, & Ukraine- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/28/galyna-kolotnytska-gadhaf_n_829093.html).

Just trying to add some insight into why this family would want a fair skinned child, especially a very fair-skinned child. I haven't been to Greece, but I'd assume such a fair child would be an exotic possession, so to speak, and worth well for begging & unfortunately, this exoticism would probably help her earn a lot of she was sold as a wife later on or put to work as a prostitute. I am so glad she's been rescued. I'd gladly raise her (heck, she even looks like she is related to me).

Sorry for rambling....

Snipped by me for space.

It is true that in Southern Spain, dark-haired people out-number blondes. it is certainly not true that there are no fair-haired, fair-skinned Andalucians. There are quite a few. I have two aunts who are fair-haired and fair skinned (married into the Gypsy family). I see blondes every time I go to Spain. In fact I have a photo I took a couple years ago of a very blonde lady on Maundy Tuesday during Semana Santa (Holy Week), all dolled up in a traditional mantilla, in Sevilla.

My cousin has a very blonde, fair son and they are full-blooded Gypsies. She is blonde with green eyes herself, but tans and has darker skin. Her brother was blonde, fairs skinned and brown eyes, just like her son.

I can't imagine anyone there asking to touch your hair or skin! It's not Africa!!!

I don't think there are many blond haired blue eyed Chechens or Georgians.

Perhaps not but they do exist:
<modsnip>

 

[Snoods]

Gypsy Child Thieves (BBC Documentary) - YouTube

That was really eye opening, holy cow. Just...wow. How terribly sad. Thank you for posting that.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

So they did the DNA paternity test on the supposed parents (Gypsy's) and compared it to Maria's and it was no match. Now can't LE determine at least a likely region of where she could be from based on Maria's DNA sample? Many family branches are DNA registered through various DNA registries so perhaps that may bring her a little closer to "home" where flyers and a more detailed investigation could occur? At this point LE has very little to go on so what harm could it do? It is not very expensive and may be well worth it.

However, the odd thing about doing DNA testing for related families through a registry is this: mine came back that I'm Scandinavian but my family had lived more recently in another country for centuries. The registry did link me to some not-so-distant and some very distant relatives and it was correct despite the fact that the registry had zero historical info from me.

Based on my non-Scientific study of the (nuanced) physical features and characteristics of the European population, I propose Maria is of Eastern Block heritage.

 

[lisser]

I'm not sure if this was posted already. It made me so sad for this little one.

"She was frightened and cried herself to sleep..."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/greece-riveted-mystery-blonde-angel-150842127.html

 

[jjenny]

Yea, I think her being "bulgarian" can be safely ruled out.
I am not sure why either Georgian or Chechen would even come up. They are not know for being blue eyed and blond haired, and they are pretty far away from Europe.