Guatemala - Nancy Ng, 29, from Monterey Park CA, missing during Yoga Retreat, 19 Oct 2023

[RickshawFan]

I'm just getting to this. Terrible thing.

At the same time, I'm strangely humored at the idea of resorts, yoga retreats, pollution, and speedboats at Lake Atitlán. I was there before there was a single resort (just one hotel), and it was an area almost exclusively inhabited by indigenous folks. I even have a photo of myself in bathing suit on a dock at the lake, with not a single sign of occupation down at the shores (there was a village—Sololá—a bit above the immediate shoreline).

Spectacular, both because of the setting and the culture of the people who lived there. Of course, all that got wiped out by subsequent government "anti-guerilla" activity that was specifically directed at local indigenous groups.

But this would be a very dangerous place to go solo anywhere, let alone on the water. You'd be in waves and wind. It might as well be an ocean. Kayaks (maybe a sit-on-top?) that are wide and shallow are hard to steer and don't track well; they would easily get caught in a wind.

It doesn't surprise me if no one local is talking. I really don't see why they would. Visitors might as well be a separate universe.

 

[tarabull]

At approx 2:30 minute mark in the video at this link she is shown in front of a boat with writing on it... can anyone make any of it out???

because next they show the video she last recorded and it seems to me it is her riding in that boat, maybe tour transportation to the retreat...???

and again who is running the camera for the pic first shown of her in front of the boat, and then the video riding in the boat...????

just an observation...

Search for missing SoCal woman at lake in Guatemala ends with no new evidence

Nancy Ng of Los Angeles County was last seen Oct. 19 when she reportedly went out in a kayak on a lake in Guatemala.

abc7news.com

 

[Cedars]

Where are you finding that? Which latest government statement?

Towards the bottom:

"the Guatemalan Public Ministry said in a statement on Tuesday...she and another person eventually broke off from the group, and they continued to kayak for slightly over a mile into the lake before Ng "decided to jump into the lake to swim, at which point she disappeared," according to the statement. "

Southern California woman disappeared during yoga retreat in Guatemala weeks ago, family says

Nancy Ng, a 29-year-old from L.A., was first reported missing Oct. 19 while on a yoga retreat in Lake Atitlán in Guatemala, according to her family.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[CosmeticChemistTX]

I am going to mention a factor in deaths like this, because I think WS is the right audience. One of the things we gain from yoga - or hiking - is a sense of well-being, even euphoria. We feel strong and invincible.

This is true of many people who have misadventures in nature, I believe. Base jumpers might be the most extreme example. It's something I've had to temper in my own self (I no longer go solo hiking in backcountry - and it's not because I fear crime, at all, it's because I know the statistics about risk taking and I know myself, I have a hard time sticking to plan, think I can go explore an area that could be dangerous, etc).

Having an inner dialogue with one's own self (in which one side of your inner conversation plays Devil's Advocate and says, REALLY? you're going hiking with just 1 liter of water?? What are you thinking?? - or whatever it is), is barely adequate for safety.

It's better to actually have a partner or a concession operator who asks tough questions and points out risks. This doesn't always happen at retreats or in resorts.

But today's emphasis is on solo decision-making, euphoric experiences in nature, etc.

This is a recipe for some risk. Studies show that having truthful conversations with an intelligent adventure partner is protective. When we go to tourist places and see a lot of other people doing more risky things (kayaking on a big, deep lake without a PFD; people jumping off kayaks into the same lake), we are more likely to do them ourselves. When we are feeling on top of the world, relaxed and joyous, we might actually be more likely to make major errors.

Depression or desperation causes errors too, but I'm speaking of something else here - not often talked about, from personal observation of SO many deaths in nature, over 30 years of study. I know a lot of us are parents or grandparents and have to watch our kids take risks, but in my case, I find I must say something to them beyond "Be careful."

This brings up a compelling perspective. The elevation of dopamine through experiences such as yoga, cacao and fire ceremonies, along with the sensory delight of delicious food, creates a profound sense of connection to nature. Even the use of tobacco rapè in the region contributes to this connection. I've noticed that the euphoria, particularly in the days following a psychedelic encounter like those often provided at such retreats (e.g., ayahuasca or huachuma), amplifies the connection and can foster an unwarranted sense of confidence in navigating interactions with nature. While I don't assert that NN participated in these activities, it would be surprising if such offerings were absent at the retreat. In U.S.-based organized retreats, there seems to be a collective engagement in experiences not easily accessible in the U.S., adding an intriguing dimension to the communal dynamic. Witnesses may not want people back home to know that they’re at such a retreat. There may be a layer of witnesses not wanting to be identified or caught up in the case. I definitely think that anyone that knows anything should definitely cooperate. I’m just bringing this perspective into the group to see with any of you think.

 

[RickshawFan]

water is 70F all the time but swimming is best between November and May.... algal blooms:

Rules For Swimming In Lake Atitlan: How To Not Get Sick And The Best Spots For Safe Swimming & Cliff Jumping - Kayak Guatemala

In this comprehensive guide, we provide 5 important rules for swimming in Lake Atitlan, plus we'll tell you the best and safest spots around the lake for swimming and cliff jumping.

kayakguatemala.com

site offers kayaks, tours, cliff jumping spots.... one of the swimming spots they list is near the town she was in I think... they say that you might want to wear a life jacket... no one is talking about life jackets...

has NN's family said that she was an experienced or strong swimmer? It is such a big deep lake that it makes me worry about currents or who-knows-what...wonder if there was a guide.

View attachment 459592
University of Sea Kayaking
https://www.useakayak.org › references › hypothermia_t...

Hypothermia Table

Water Temperature in Degrees F (Degrees C)	Loss of Dexterity (with no protective clothing)	Expected Time of Survival
50 to 60 (10 to 15.5)	10 to 15 min.	1 to 6 hrs.
60 to 70 (15.5 to 21)	30 to 40 min.	2 to 40 hrs.
70 to 80 (21 to 26.5)	1 to 2 hrs.	3 hrs. to indefinite
Over 80 (Over 26.5)	2 to 12 hrs.	Indefinite

IMO being a strong swimmer would have no bearing on the situation. That lake might as well be an ocean (I've been there). It would be like saying an "experienced hiker" would likely survive an off-trail sortie on an Alp without a pack and no map. Experience doesn't really do a whole lot in some situations, because conditions are crucial and the biggest variable. Planning and risk mitigation in advance would be a lot more likely to make a difference.

You could simply drop your paddle in the water of that vast lake, and all would be over unless you were carrying a spare. If you were atop a sit-upon, you'd soon be hallucinating from the sun if you were in, say, a bikini. If you decided to do some yoga on top of it, so easy to lose your balance. So many potential accidents...

 

[slowpoke]

The HelpUsFindNancy IG has a couple new posts.

One has a map with markings from Chris Sharpe, the Master Aircrewman of the hired SAR. I’m not sure how to read it. Link

The other is a video of Nancy, launching a sky lantern (those paper lanterns you light a fire inside and let it launch high in the sky) in the night sky. It doesn’t say if this was taken on this trip or not. Link

 

[RickshawFan]

Towards the bottom:

"the Guatemalan Public Ministry said in a statement on Tuesday...she and another person eventually broke off from the group, and they continued to kayak for slightly over a mile into the lake before Ng "decided to jump into the lake to swim, at which point she disappeared," according to the statement. "

Southern California woman disappeared during yoga retreat in Guatemala weeks ago, family says

Nancy Ng, a 29-year-old from L.A., was first reported missing Oct. 19 while on a yoga retreat in Lake Atitlán in Guatemala, according to her family.

www.cbsnews.com

A mile would be horrendous if you had to paddle into the wind on the way back on one of the wide kayaks. The other kayaker might have thought they were lucky to be alive. I'll bet they're traumatized if it seemed like their buddy has drowned and they have to get back all by themselves. I can't imagine anything so lonely and terrifying.

 

[10ofRods]

A mile would be horrendous if you had to paddle into the wind on the way back on one of the wide kayaks. The other kayaker might have thought they were lucky to be alive. I'll bet they're traumatized if it seemed like they're drowned and they have to get back all by themselves. I can't imagine anything so lonely and terrifying.

Thank you for bringing in that other element - of what it's like to be "out there" in a dangerous place with another person.

I feel so bad for the survivor.

A mile is a long way, don't you think? By wide kayak (and I too assume that's what they had - for "safety" or...economy.

 

[RickshawFan]

A traditional (Inuit) kayak has a kind of well for the pilot to sit in, and their legs are inside the kayak. These kayaks can also have a considerable cargo area below deck.
View attachment 458612
^https://www.viator.com/tours/Interlaken/Kayak-Tour-of-the-Turquoise-Lake-Brienz/d5011-64859P2

This type of kayak does not allow the person to easily become separated from their kayak. THe more popular type of kayak these days is the sit on top kayak, in which the person can become separated from their kayak and, in stronger currents, have a hard time catching up with it.

View attachment 458613
^Electronics, Cars, Fashion, Collectibles & More | eBay

In this advertisement for kayak rentals at Lake Atitlan, note that the person using the kayak is 1) not wearing a life jacket and 2) being encouraged through the advertisement to use the kayak as a diving platform:

View attachment 458614
^Guatemala - Kayaking Lake Atitlan With Stunning Volcano Views

This is a kind of Safety Third practice, IMO. Safety-oriented kayak use requires a life jacket at all times, and, sometimes a leash to the kayak (as one would do with a paddleboard or surfboard). Leashes are way less common on lakes, though (and many people decide not to use life jackets, esp. on lakes). This means they can be separated from their boat if they fall out or it turns over. Or if they deliberately jump off it to swim.

It does seem as though if you dive off a kayak, you'd push the kayak away from yourself. This photo looks so dangerous: I'll bet the locals wouldn't dream of doing this.

 

[RickshawFan]

The yoga practitioner was last seen heading out on a kayaking trip on Lake Atitlán

FBI joins search for California yoga enthusiast Nancy Ng

The FBI has joined the search for missing California woman Nancy Ng, 29, who vanished during a kayaking trip on the remote Lake Atitlán in Guatemala.

www.dailymail.co.uk

*FBI for an accidental drowning?… no.

There's someone in that kayak....

There might be an FBI agent situated at the US Embassy in Guatemala City.

 

[10ofRods]

It does seem as though if you dive off a kayak, you'd push the kayak away from yourself. This photo looks so dangerous: I'll bet the locals wouldn't dream of doing this.

Oh, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't. What happens is that tourists start to believe that one week of calm and meditation in Guatemala extends to its (risky) lakes and countryside.

The maps we're seeing show searchers at the south part of the lake in greater concentration (the boats shown on the red line area). If the address given for the retreat area is correct, it was far to the north - so in addition, this was an end-of-retreat field trip, to a lake where NN had been before - and wanted to return, apparently to kayak and swim.

You are absolutely right about the kayak moving away (opposite direction) if a person dives off it.

 

[10ofRods]

The yoga practitioner was last seen heading out on a kayaking trip on Lake Atitlán

FBI joins search for California yoga enthusiast Nancy Ng

The FBI has joined the search for missing California woman Nancy Ng, 29, who vanished during a kayaking trip on the remote Lake Atitlán in Guatemala.

www.dailymail.co.uk

*FBI for an accidental drowning?… no.

These days? Maybe a yes. IMO.

 

[RickshawFan]

So the family would have no help from any U.S. agency on their behalf? I honestly do not know these things and am super curious.

No. It's not the US, and no resources would be expected or provided.

The embassy might handle communication with the family and perhaps logistics of collecting a body, but that's about it.

Americans aren't special; tourists in developing countries often don't anticipate this.

 

[acutename]

IMO being a strong swimmer would have no bearing on the situation. That lake might as well be an ocean (I've been there). It would be like saying an "experienced hiker" would likely survive an off-trail sortie on an Alp without a pack and no map. Experience doesn't really do a whole lot in some situations, because conditions are crucial and the biggest variable. Planning and risk mitigation in advance would be a lot more likely to make a difference.

You could simply drop your paddle in the water of that vast lake, and all would be over unless you were carrying a spare. If you were atop a sit-upon, you'd soon be hallucinating from the sun if you were in, say, a bikini. If you decided to do some yoga on top of it, so easy to lose your balance. So many potential accidents...

I only said strong swimmer because it might have allowed her to get back to the kayak or to survive long enough for some one to look for her- I think it took awhile for the other woman to get back to the group; awhile for anyone in the group to contact anyone else. It all took a long time.

 

[RickshawFan]

She jumped out of her kayak to take a swim? No one does that. Because you can't get back in. It's not like jumping off a ski boat or pontoon boat, where there's a ladder in the back you can climb back in.

Southern California woman disappeared during yoga retreat in Guatemala weeks ago, family says

Nancy Ng, a 29-year-old from L.A., was first reported missing Oct. 19 while on a yoga retreat in Lake Atitlán in Guatemala, according to her family.

www.cbsnews.com

If it's a sit-atop- you could probably get back on top. If it's the type you drop into, you'd better have a special rescue float. Even those are hard to use if you don't have practice. Then, you’d need a bilge pump or something similar to get all the water out of the boat so it floats.

 

[RickshawFan]

Incredible and criminal imo.
You have a missing person presumed drowned who is part of a tour group from the states and staying at a hotel. The person kayaking with her from the tour group reports they went off from the group, then Ng decided to go swimming and drowned. Just gone like disappeared immediately?
Period? Did she not resurface At all? No life jacket?
What happened after that is fubar IMO. No formal searches are done bc authorities are not notified right away etc.
Where is the common decency and judgement here. Liability be damned.
This just does not seem credible. JMO

Interesting view. It sounds kind of normal to me for the conditions and not at all unlikely as far as local response. Definitely not criminal. Just reality.

 

[Dhighsmith]

Different situation, but it reminded me of when I was on a European river cruise ship trip. One of the guests had gotten ill with Covid mid-trip. The entire ship‘s guests were called together and the announcement made in order to alert us all and how they were handling it, and answering concerns, and giving options. I appreciated the way it was handled.

What I would have expected at this yoga retreat is the retreat organizer to have gotten the retreaters together and made the announcement of Nancy going missing, perhaps with an official there (LE) who can begin taking the statements from the group. Knowing this was at the end of the retreat would mean all the more there was urgency in doing this as quickly as possible.

I wouldn’t expect anyone to stay behind in Guatemala, having to change their flight plans (nor am I assuming this is what you meant). But if I knew I was scheduled to leave the next day, I’d make sure the authorities knew so I could be interviewed to tell all I knew before leaving. It just feels like the right thing.

MOO

I realize that with the limited information provided, it’s difficult not to question the actions of individuals immediately following Ng’s disappearance. It will be interesting to learn specific details of the time line leading up to her disappearance and the 24 hour period after her disappearance. I’m holding on to the hopes that humanity is not lost that the female witness fully cooperated for the search of Ng and afterwards the tour group and resort enforced their scheduled travel plans.

Not sure if everyone remembers but in the case of Natalie Holloway’s disappearance, the group of classmates and chaperones were scheduled to depart the morning of her disappearance, which they maintained that scheduled with the exception of an adult chaperone who remained behind in anticipation of Natalie returning to hotel.

Prayer for family and friends.

 

[RickshawFan]

I was reading of a young man who drowned in another area of the lake (San Marcos) last year, (link-translated) and it looks like it was reported to the “Bomberos Voluntarios de Panajachel” and they responded right away, and took 3 hours to dive and recover the body. So, it appears alerting rescuers can be swift there.

IIRC Panajachel is where we stayed in my childhood. This group must be something like SAR. But it would take hours for volunteers to muster, get to a location, consider darkness, weather, and start searching. It sounds like that search was 3 hours of diving, but that doesn't include the lead-up, which could have been a whole day in good conditions.

 

[RickshawFan]

I see the fbi and state dept have been in touch with Guatemalan authorities.
jmo

Yes. That is their job. They wouldn't be doing, they'd be go-betweens.

 

[mickey2942]

Not generalizing, but it is easy for people who hike, do yoga, running, training, to over estimate fitness level. Swimming is completely different, especially when the water is cold.

My daughter is 25, in way better shape than me, I can beat her swimming any day. I am usually at least 5 lengths ahead of her when we do 20. Something to think about.