Gun Control Debate #1

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So, last night when I posted that this thread was going along and not melting down, it started melting down.

You know who you are.

No sarcasm

No insulting

No baiting

No telling other posters how to post or what to post

Today no more warnings. Timeout or bans will take place.

Happy posting.

Tricia
 
I don't mind listening to High School students emotional pleas but I hope that my elected politicians use more educated and seasoned sources when considering gun legislation.

This is bizarre but listening to these articulate, intelligent, fierce kids from Marjory Stoneman makes me think that this one could be the turning point. Even over Newtown.

I've posted many times that my years of study of U.S. culture and the place guns have in that culture and in our history make any real attempts at addressing guns as the issue- virtually impossible. So we have to look at other things we can do.

But these kids give me hope that 200 years of culture can be changed much more quickly than I thought.

I'm astounded by them. A bunch of super powerful anti-gun, anti-NRA advocates have just been created. And they're absolutely decimating the rhetoric of those who support unfettered firearms possession.

I think they're starting a movement. Just like the kids faced with the suicide mission of Vietnam did who decided to resist. These kids who actually daced
death, saw death and experienced loss, they're done.

It might just spread through a generation.
 
This is bizarre but listening to these articulate, intelligent, fierce kids from Marjory Stoneman makes me think that this one could be the turning point. Even over Newtown.

I've posted many times that my years of study of U.S. culture and the place guns have in that culture and in our history make any real attempts at addressing guns as the issue- virtually impossible. So we have to look at other things we can do.

But these kids give me hope that 200 years of culture can be changed much more quickly than I thought.

I'm astounded by them. A bunch of super powerful anti-gun, anti-NRA advocates have just been created. And they're absolutely decimating the rhetoric of those who support unfettered firearms possession.

I think they're starting a movement. Just like the kids faced with the suicide mission of Vietnam did who decided to resist. These kids who actually daced
death, saw death and experienced loss, they're done.

It might just spread through a generation.

Yes, yes, yes! I do see the similarity to the blowback to Vietnam. Kids aren’t doing what their parents (or other adults) demand they do (which is die, tbh). Instead they’re doing what’s RIGHT.

I support them. All of them. They need us.
 
Smart kid

ROTC Student: “If Coach Feis had had his firearm in school that day, I believe that he most likely could’ve stopped the threat.”

Feis was the football coach who died shielding students, he was a trained security guard but wasn't allowed to carry a gun to protect students.

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/964966284822659072
 
Why do you feel that the age for a firearm purchase be 21 instead of 18 years old?

Good Q--

The same reason I feel the drinking age should be 21. Saves lives. It was well established that this age group could not handle the responsibility of drinking and driving. Responsibility is the issue in this age group.

I understand conceal-ability is the reason for the law in Florida. But it seems ill thought out. Personally, I think when auto insurance companies won't recognize a demographic as mature until they are 25, some of the risk-pool work, the studies are in place to understand why.

And until an all out assault weapon ban can be tabled again- I feel it is an urgent stopgap measure as the AR 15 is the weapon of choice which is one of the common denominators in the Aurora, SH, SB, Orlando, LV, TX, and Parkland massacres.

Renowned for its affordability and customizability it is the most popular gun in America.


Parkland, Florida, and the deadliest shootings in US history all have one thing in common
http://www.businessinsider.com/park...tings-in-us-history-all-used-the-ar-15-2018-2
 
I understand the argument my friend. And i understand why some may feel that way given the current climate. But it Is not the answer IMO. Not even close. It may lead to even more carnage next time. Logic dictates bullets flying in multiple directions can be more dangerous than one direction. No?

Yeah arming teachers as a solution to this is nonsensical and insane IMO.

First, where is the firearm going to be stored so the teacher can access and use it immediately. If they can access and use it immediately, that means a student likely can too. Either by opening a drawer or overpowering the teacher. And are we really at the stage where we want students to have to be in a class with an armed teacher? With a gun in a holster? What does that tell our babies about the world we live in and how to survive it?

Second, people make mistakes on a daily basis with dangerous items like cars, chemicals, tools, fire. People also make deadly and dangerous mistakes with their firearms, daily, leading to him deaths. Now we want to throw millions more guns into the schools, at the hands of millions of teachers so that there are musslions of more oppruntities for someone to make a horrendous safety mistake with the firearm they brought to school for protection.

Third, you can't just shove a gun in an adult's hand and think they're prepared. To be able to use it properly requires a lot of training. Will training be mandated? What kind? Many of the 3.2 million public school teachers in our nation have never fired a gun. But we are going to arm them all?

Fourth, even if they are gun users and know how to shoot, unless you are a soldier with a loaded weapon cocked and ready to go, or LE with a loaded weapon aimed and going into a dangerous situation ready to shoot, the weapon in the safe or even in your holster may be of little use. I remember a terrifying situation I rolled up on, not expecting it, which involved a psychotic young homeless guy screaming the most blood-curdling scream and lunging toward me as I pulled up into my office drive late one night to grab a file. In shock I could barely get my car into reverse and then once I did, and this guy SLOWLY followed me into the street where I had reversed, I was shaking so bad it took me several tries to dial 911.

Being able to react quickly with a weapon is something only highly skilled soldiers and LE are able to do typically and even then, if you're not in battle mode and the bad guy comes in unsuspecting, as they usually do, it's too late by the time you can reach for your gun.

Fifth, like in tests of crowd shooting situations where others were armed and engaged the shooter, they mostly just shot each other on accident. As someone else said, adding guns in the hands of people who aren't professional gun users, even if they think they are, increases the possibility of casualties. It doesn't decrease it. And when first responders show up during the heat of a shooting, how can they know who the bad guy is and who the good guy is if everyone is armed? That's a fast intense, adrenaline-filled situation.

As a result of the fourth and fifth points above, despite armed people being in close proximity to the shooter during the Oregon community college shooting and the Fort Hood shooting some either did not use their weapons or did but unsuccessfully. Civilians have never successfully stopped a shooter from killing many people. Only one, who had a ton of reaction time, was able to use firearms to disable a mass murderer, but only after he already killed 26 people including 26 children:

According to a study of 62 mass shootings over 30 years conducted by Mother Jones, “not a single case includes evidence that the killer chose to target a place because it banned guns.” Many of those mass shootings took place in areas were guns where permitted, but not a single one was stopped by armed civilians.
Parker’s interview revealed the practical difficulties of armed civilians trying to stop a mass shooting. By the time he became aware of the shooting, a SWAT team had already responded. He was concerned that police would view him as a “bad guy” and target him, so he quickly retreated into the classroom.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thinkp...-campus-at-time-of-massacre-1410b3cad225/amp/

Instead, it is non-civilians who have been the most effective at ending the carnage or stopping a shooter.

Finally, sixth, not every teacher across America is stable themselves. Some are actually suicidal, mentally ill, homicidal. And we want to arm them all?

This seems like a terrible plan and an ineffective means of protecting our kids. I would be scared to send my child to school with armed teachers.
 
Parkland High School Students:

Williams then asked the elder Minoff brother how he would stop a tragedy like the one that took place at his high school if he were a lawmaker in a “decision-making position.”

“Gun-wise, I don’t think there’s any way to prevent it,” Minoff responded. “You outlaw guns, it just creates higher demand for it. I think it has to do with mental health, though. If he’s been expelled three different times from three different schools, I think he should be helped out.”

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/parklan...nk-gun-control-would-have-prevented-massacre/
 
Federal flight deck officer training

The Federal Flight Deck Officer Program trains eligible flight crew members to use firearms to defend against an act of criminal violence or air piracy. Since 2003, TSA authorized federal flight deck officers are trained to use force to guard against individuals attempting to gain control of the flight deck of an aircraft.

This program is a great success. A similar program for teachers in the classroom could also be a great success. JMO

https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2015/12/14/federal-flight-deck-officer-training
 
GUN MASSACRES
Is It Time To Bring Back The Assault Weapons Ban?

The death toll in the Parkland school shooting counts it among the deadliest gun massacres in U.S. history. It's the sixth school shooting incident already this year where students have been killed or wounded and it's the deadliest since the Sandy Hook massacre in 2012. After the Parkland shooting, it emerged that the perpetrator purchased his AR-15 assault rifle legally. That weapon and others like it were once banned under U.S. law and there are growing calls for a reintroduction of that legislation.

https://www.statista.com/chart/12943/is-it-time-to-bring-back-the-assault-weapons-ban/
image.jpg
 
Smart kid

ROTC Student: “If Coach Feis had had his firearm in school that day, I believe that he most likely could’ve stopped the threat.”

Feis was the football coach who died shielding students, he was a trained security guard but wasn't allowed to carry a gun to protect students.

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/964966284822659072

Stats don't bear that out. No civilian has been able to stop a mass murderer who was using a gun until they have already murdered dozens. It's soldiers and law enforcement who have been able to do that.

Coach Feis would've needed to be wearing full tactical gear and had his weapon loaded and aimed as the shooter started firing, to be able to be at all effective at just reducing deaths.

And being a trained security guard isn't close to enough training to deal
with an active shooter situation. I mean, seriously.

Chris Hixon, the former military security specialist who was patrolling the halls when he was killed would have better chances at using a gun safely and effectively due to his military training. But again, it's down to reaction time. You round a corner and a gunman is spraying bullets at you. Or a gunman bursts through the door.

Feis had only the second it took to throw his body in front of students, to take the bullets for them. He didn't have the seconds needed to access a firearm, aim it and fire.

If we could afford to have an armed officer on every campus, that would be more of a reasonable safeguard. They could possibly prevent at least some of the deaths.
 
Federal flight deck officer training



This program is a great success. A similar program for teachers in the classroom could also be a great success. JMO

https://www.tsa.gov/news/releases/2015/12/14/federal-flight-deck-officer-training

How is it a great success? I'm all for it - we are talking about one, locked entrance and a highly trained person on the other side- but how many wackos have been stopped by a flight deck operator using a gun as opposed to just the locked door?
 
Stats don't bear that out. No civilian has been able to stop a mass murderer who was using a gun until they have already murdered dozens. It's soldiers and law enforcement who have been able to do that.

Coach Feis would've needed to be wearing full tactical gear and had his weapon loaded and aimed as the shooter started firing, to be able to be at all effective at just reducing deaths.

And being a trained security guard isn't close to enough training to deal
with an active shooter situation. I mean, seriously.

Chris Hixon, the former military security specialist who was patrolling the halls when he was killed would have better chances at using a gun safely and effectively due to his military training. But again, it's down to reaction time. You round a corner and a gunman is spraying bullets at you. Or a gunman bursts through the door.

Feis had only the second it took to throw his body in front of students, to take the bullets for them. He didn't have the seconds needed to access a firearm, aim it and fire.

If we could afford to have an armed officer on every campus, that would be more of a reasonable safeguard. They could possibly prevent at least some of the deaths.

There was an armed guard but not near the shooting. And you can't assess Feis's actions as an unarmed man vs what they may have been if he had a gun.
 
The Australian gun "buy back" that people are so in love with is most definitely a gun confiscation program. If you can't tell the government I'm keeping my gun then it's a confiscation program.

If Americans decide we need the same kind of program then the discussion needs to be about repealing the Second Amendment so that a gun "buy back" can at least be attempted.

Not really. Banning certain TYPES of guns- which the aussies did- isn't a violation of the second amendment.

But here's an Australian ambassador who echoes what I've been saying for years about why effective gun control legislation like in Australia would be super hard to effectively pass here:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/psmag.com/.amp/news/australia-ambassador-gun-laws
 
How is it a great success? I'm all for it - we are talking about one, locked entrance and a highly trained person on the other side- but how many wackos have been stopped by a flight deck operator using a gun as opposed to just the locked door?

Because it's working. How many hijackers have taken control of a US airliner since this program was started. Zero. Because they know they will get shot if they try.
 
There was an armed guard but not near the shooting. And you can't assess Feis's actions as an unarmed man vs what they may have been if he had a gun.

Yes I can. I know guns. He did not have the time it takes to use a weapon against the shooter. That takes a cool head on a person who is highly trained and much more reaction time than he had.
 
Stats don't bear that out. No civilian has been able to stop a mass murderer who was using a gun until they have already murdered dozens. It's soldiers and law enforcement who have been able to do that.

Coach Feis would've needed to be wearing full tactical gear and had his weapon loaded and aimed as the shooter started firing, to be able to be at all effective at just reducing deaths.

And being a trained security guard isn't close to enough training to deal
with an active shooter situation. I mean, seriously.

Chris Hixon, the former military security specialist who was patrolling the halls when he was killed would have better chances at using a gun safely and effectively due to his military training. But again, it's down to reaction time. You round a corner and a gunman is spraying bullets at you. Or a gunman bursts through the door.

Feis had only the second it took to throw his body in front of students, to take the bullets for them. He didn't have the seconds needed to access a firearm, aim it and fire.

If we could afford to have an armed officer on every campus, that would be more of a reasonable safeguard. They could possibly prevent at least some of the deaths.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...r-stop-mass-shootings/?utm_term=.bf95b99ab1eb

https://www.quora.com/Has-any-mass-murderer-ever-been-stopped-by-an-armed-bystander
 
The only weapons available in the US during the 1930's that I can come up with off the top of my head that had a high capacity magazine, which is commonly considered to be more than 10 rounds, would be the Thompson sub-machine gun(20/30rd), the Browning BAR (20rd) and the Browning Hi-Power(13rd).

The Thompson and BAR were restricted with the National Firearms Act of 1934 because they are capable of full automatic fire. Nothing about their magazines though.


https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/National+Firearms+Act+of+1934

TY for the info, Ranch. Were the above-listed weapons restricted in an effort to keep them out of the hands of crime syndicates?
 
Australia's Ambassador Says His Country's Gun Laws Can't Save America


Twelve days later, a conservative prime minister introduced the National Firearms Act, which banned the sale and importation of all automatic and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns, forced people to produce a legitimate reason for wanting to buy a weapon, and installed a 28-day waiting period. Perhaps most controversially, the law called for a massive mandatory gun buyback during which the government confiscated and destroyed 700,000 firearms, effectively reducing gun-owning households by half.

BBM

The Second Amendment would prevent this from ever happening in the US. JMO


https://psmag.com/news/australia-ambassador-gun-laws
 
TY for the info, Ranch. Were the above-listed weapons restricted in an effort to keep them out of the hands of crime syndicates?

Yep. They were not banned, just taxed.
 
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