Gun Control Debate #1

[SweetCaroline]

Good question....but I'd really love to focus attention on changing laws that are possible to change. And, I think that there is possibility for change with stronger regulations against the ease of buying powerful weapons like the shooter in Florida easily purchased.

If we focus on regular hand-guns, grandmas who carry, homeowners who want protection, hobbyist target shooters, hunters, etc.....that is not going to change anything. In my opinion.

Let's start with what can be done.

jmo

Yep. You want a military-style weapon, fine. You have to complete military-style training for it. A class that teaches you how to use it properly, how to safely store it, etc. And FGS, you have to be AT LEAST old enough to legally buy beer.

 

[Inthedetails]

I have a sincere question for everyone. How can farmers and ranchers protect their livestock from predators if they can no longer use guns? We sold our farm a few years ago so I don't have that need anymore but I do understand what it would mean to them. The threat to livestock is real and the financial loss would be staggering, not to mention the emotional loss of seeing the animals gutted and ripped to shreds. Because farming and ranching are businesses, do you think it would be fair for them to apply for and receive permits to protect their livestock?

I think it's fair to apply for permits.

And I don't think ranchers are in any danger whatsoever of having their rights to guns taken away. No worries there, imo.

There was a 19yo shooter in Florida who easily purchased weapons and ammo who then killed 17 people and injured more. That situation has people very upset. I don't see anyone upset because of a rancher.

jmopinion

 

[TheCrankyChef]

Coach Levi Patterson told the Kansas City Star the fundraiser for the third-grade team in Neosho, Missouri, had been planned before last week’s shooting in Parkland, Florida.

He says his heart breaks for the shooting victims, but said gun raffles have been going on for years. He also said none of the children on the team would be forced to sell raffle tickets. Players selling tickets range in age from 7 to 9.

http://nbc4i.com/2018/02/19/missouri-youth-baseball-team-moves-forward-with-ar-15-raffle/amp/

IMHO it just seems callous not to cancel the raffle - what kind of message does it send? Why is it OK to sell tickets for that kind of gun by a 9 year old? I'm not suggesting that one of these kids are going to get hold of it and start shooting up their school but it seems to be an unethical way to promote a raffle. My point is an AR15 should not be available for the general public no matter who has a raffle.

 

[kittythehare]

I have a sincere question for everyone. How can farmers and ranchers protect their livestock from predators if they can no longer use guns? We sold our farm a few years ago so I don't have that need anymore but I do understand what it would mean to them. The threat to livestock is real and the financial loss would be staggering, not to mention the emotional loss of seeing the animals gutted and ripped to shreds. Because farming and ranching are businesses, do you think it would be fair for them to apply for and receive permits to protect their livestock?

In Ireland, one can get what is known as a farmer's licence- they use the guns for shooting crows when crops are threatened.
Mostly, though, they use a gas thing that makes periodic gun sounds to scare off predators.
we don't have wild nimals but packs of dogs get together and kill sheep and legally the farmer is entitled to kill those dogs, IF THEY ARE ON HIS LAND.
they are not legally entitled to wait outside the dog's house and shoot him when he appears.

 

[Tillicum]

I think it's fair to apply for permits.

And I don't think ranchers are in any danger whatsoever of having their rights to guns taken away. No worries there, imo.

There was a 19yo shooter in Florida who easily purchased weapons and ammo who then killed 17 people and injured more. That situation has people very upset. I don't see anyone upset because of a rancher.

jmopinion

I get that but I'm reading that many think certain guns should be banned completely and unfortunately those are the type of guns they need. You need to get a clean, kill shot from a safe distance. Most predators are in packs and you need to be able to shoot quickly. I'm not trying to be disagreeable, just wondering how it could be done.

 

[CADwrest]

I get the whole personal responsibility thing.....but semi-automatic weapons should not be manufactured for civilian use, it's madness !!! There is no logical use for them, except mass murder. I'm right leaning but hate guns.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Many of the civilian owned weapons in the US are semi-automatic (which just means when you pull the trigger, one round fires, and the gun chambers the next round by itself). The vast majority of handguns are either semi-autos or revolvers. With long guns (rifles and shotguns), they are usually either semi-auto or have some kind of action, like a pump or lever, to chamber the next round (there are also things like muzzle and breech loaders but they are much less common). But a very large percentage of weapons are semi-auto, and banning them or confiscating them would not be a simple matter (more on that below).

The thing about the obsession over semi-automatic rifles (of which the AR-15 is only one example) is that most of these shooters could have easily used semi-automatic handguns and the result would not have been much different (Vegas is the one exception, since that was done at long range). A full size handgun in 9mm can easily have 15-17 rounds in a standard, double-stack magazine. The difference in lethality of a rifle round vs a handgun round at close range against unarmored targets isn't going to be that significant, either. Remember, the third most deadly US shooting, Virginia Tech in 2007, was done with a couple of handguns.

And lest the response to the above be to suggest banning semi-automatic handguns: There actually was a supreme court decision about that, US v Heller in 2008. Civilian ownership of them was found to be protected under the Second Amendment.

Here's a decent article talking about gun terminology, if anyone's interested. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/semi-automatic-gun-assault-weapon-definitions/

 

[Inthedetails]

I get that but I'm reading that many think certain guns should be banned completely and unfortunately those are the type of guns they need. You need to get a clean, kill shot from a safe distance. Most predators are in packs and you need to be able to shoot quickly. I'm not trying to be disagreeable, just wondering how it could be done.

The idea of banning guns completely, imo, seems to be coming from the far-right as a scare tactic.

I also hear the idea of a complete ban from non-USA people who don't understand the gun culture of the USA. Even those of us who want gun-regulation (NOT a ban) understand guns can be safe.

And...some people are wishful that we could live in a world without guns, but I think that is more of a dreamy idealism.

From what I've observed and from I understand, people are asking for tighter gun REGULATIONS not a total ban. Pay attention to who is saying this will lead to a total ban, and it's my guess that it is fear-based propaganda.

jmo

 

[Tillicum]

The idea of banning guns completely, imo, seems to be coming from the far-right as a scare tactic.

I also hear the idea of a complete ban from non-USA people who don't understand the gun culture of the USA. Even those of us who want gun-regulation (NOT a ban) understand guns can be safe.

And...some people are wishful that we could live in a world without guns, but I think that is more of a dreamy idealism.

From what I've observed and from I understand, people are asking for tighter gun REGULATIONS not a total ban. Pay attention to who is saying this will lead to a total ban, and it's my guess that it is fear-based propaganda.

jmo

I'm referring to comments here on this site.

 

[Inthedetails]

I'm referring to comments here on this site.

The ones I've noticed are from people outside USA, FWIW.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Good question....but I'd really love to focus attention on changing laws that are possible to change. And, I think that there is possibility for change with stronger regulations against the ease of buying powerful weapons like the shooter in Florida easily purchased.

If we focus on regular hand-guns, grandmas who carry, homeowners who want protection, hobbyist target shooters, hunters, etc.....that is not going to change anything. In my opinion.

Let's start with what can be done.

jmo

I don't know this as fact but I would imagine more people are killed with hand guns than assault weapons.

 

[kittythehare]

The ones I've noticed are from people outside USA, FWIW.

i'm outside the USA, I don't understand gun culture.
I understand gun hobby as watergirl explained it.
I don't understand gun addiction.
And even though outside the USA, I weep when your children die. i feel it and I know millions of non Americans feel it.
And we look at america and we say 'they're crazy'. Insane.
We are not by any means crime free.. Not by a long shot and our cops, who are also unarmed are far from perfect.. but seriously..there is ample evidence that there is much to fear.
if we had guns in Ireland it would be just as bad, because we're crazy too..
You're in it, we're outside, looking in and we cannot understand.
We do have a voice so it might be worth your time explaining.

I live alone, in a remote area and have been subjected to mindless attacks over the years.
I don't like it, it tears my heart out but i'm damned if I'm gonna kill anybody-extinguishing lives is not my right, no matter where I live. That's black and white.

I'm not religious but I do trust in the Divine.

Your children are dying, because you want to preserve your hobbies?
Life is precious.

I can put myself in the Florida killer's shoes.. I think I understand him and my heart breaks for for him.. he is so ill...
Much easier when it's ISIS- easier to get the ire up and apportion blame left right and centre.. and easier to hate too..
I'm not gonna convince anybody of anything.
Take yourselves outside of yourselves and look in , is all I ask.

Plenty of us live in countries without guns.
Mostly we manage to protect ourselves, mostly we manage to remain sane and grow in maturity as a result of all that befalls us.

Fear propaganda? why does the loss of a hobby bring fear?
Is it like banning golf clubs? Would that bring fear?

there's plenty of ways to protect livestock and crops without killing anything.

Good fencing , cctv and bangers for noise will send most beasts running..

A lack of good fencing or the wherewithal to build them is not a good reason to have guns.

 

[CADwrest]

I don't know this as fact but I would imagine more people are killed with hand guns than assault weapons.

It's absolutely a fact.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....able_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2010-2014.xls

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

I think it's fair to apply for permits.

And I don't think ranchers are in any danger whatsoever of having their rights to guns taken away. No worries there, imo.

There was a 19yo shooter in Florida who easily purchased weapons and ammo who then killed 17 people and injured more. That situation has people very upset. I don't see anyone upset because of a rancher.

jmopinion

rbbm

I used to think that way as well but now I'm not so sure. After hurricane Katrina, in New Orleans they were confiscating guns from law abiding citizens at gun point no less.

 

[Canaille]

Well....some movement, perhaps?

"Trump open to tougher gun background checks after Florida rampage"
https://nypost.com/2018/02/19/trump-open-to-tougher-gun-background-checks-after-florida-rampage/


Though...in the Florida case, a tougher background check wouldn't have stopped the school shooter from purchasing his weapons and ammo. There was nothing in his background that would show up.

He seemed to have had a background that should have shown up somewhere. He had a run in with the law at the age of 11. It was reported that the police had been called to his home 39 times. His name was given to the FBI for the post he made on a Youtube video. He had been expelled from school for violent behavior. In my opinion, there should be some file kept on kids, like their juvenile records, that goes into the background check for gun purchases. Schools should be required to report when a kid had been expelled for violent behavior. The FBI dropped the ball, big time.

 

[kittythehare]

He seemed to have had a background that should have shown up somewhere. He had a run in with the law at the age of 11. It was reported that the police had been called to his home 39 times. His name was given to the FBI for the post he made on a Youtube video. He had been expelled from school for violent behavior. In my opinion, there should be some file kept on kids, like their juvenile records, that goes into the background check for gun purchases. Schools should be required to report when a kid had been expelled for violent behavior. The FBI dropped the ball, big time.

He was well checked out.
What do you imagine the FBI could have done?
Sat on him?

 

[Inthedetails]

i'm outside the USA, I don't understand gun culture.
I understand gun hobby as watergirl explained it.
I don't understand gun addiction.
And even though outside the USA, I weep when your children die. i feel it and I know millions of non Americans feel it.
And we look at america and we say 'they're crazy'. Insane.
We are not by any means crime free.. Not by a long shot and our cops, who are also unarmed are far from perfect.. but seriously..there is ample evidence that there is much to fear.
if we had guns in Ireland it would be just as bad, because we're crazy too..
You're in it, we're outside, looking in and we cannot understand.
We do have a voice so it might be worth your time explaining.

I live alone, in a remote area and have been subjected to mindless attacks over the years.
I don't like it, it tears my heart out but i'm damned if I'm gonna kill anybody-extinguishing lives is not my right, no matter where I live. That's black and white.

I'm not religious but I do trust in the Divine.

Your children are dying, because you want to preserve your hobbies?
Life is precious.

I can put myself in the Florida killer's shoes.. I think I understand him and my heart breaks for for him.. he is so ill...
Much easier when it's ISIS- easier to get the ire up and apportion blame left right and centre.. and easier to hate too..
I'm not gonna convince anybody of anything.
Take yourselves outside of yourselves and look in , is all I ask.

Plenty of us live in countries without guns.
Mostly we manage to protect ourselves, mostly we manage to remain sane and grow in maturity as a result of all that befalls us.

Fear propaganda? why does the loss of a hobby bring fear?
Is it like banning golf clubs? Would that bring fear?

there's plenty of ways to protect livestock and crops without killing anything.

Good fencing , cctv and bangers for noise will send most beasts running..

A lack of good fencing or the wherewithal to build them is not a good reason to have guns.

The fear, imo, is that the right-wingers think left-wingers want to take all their guns away. This might not be a big deal to you outside the USA but it is a big deal here. I personally think that fear is unfounded, but it is persistent.

The gun violence problem is COMPLICATED. Even the regulations for stricter background checks doesn't solve that much....the Florida shooter didn't have a background issue that would be caught by any checks. But throwing up our hands to say....but handguns are bad! Mental health is an issue! We'll lose the 2nd amendment! All that noise is just an excuse to....do nothing.

jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

He was well checked out.
What do you imagine the FBI could have done?
Sat on him?

Exactly. The kid bought the guns legally.

So....what do we do to prevent a purchase like this? Is it impossible to prevent?

jmo

 

[Canaille]

He was well checked out.
What do you imagine the FBI could have done?
Sat on him?

The FBI admitted that they didn't follow their own protocol.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...out-the-parkland-shooter-but-nothing-was-done

 

[kimlynn]

The idea of banning guns completely, imo, seems to be coming from the far-right as a scare tactic.

I also hear the idea of a complete ban from non-USA people who don't understand the gun culture of the USA. Even those of us who want gun-regulation (NOT a ban) understand guns can be safe.

And...some people are wishful that we could live in a world without guns, but I think that is more of a dreamy idealism.

From what I've observed and from I understand, people are asking for tighter gun REGULATIONS not a total ban. Pay attention to who is saying this will lead to a total ban, and it's my guess that it is fear-based propaganda.

jmo

It is fear based propaganda. Every time there is a mass killing and gun control is mentioned the NRA and some politicians start with the fear mongering driving gun sales up. IMO

 

[Inthedetails]

It is fear based propaganda. Every time there is a mass killing and gun control is mentioned the NRA and some politicians start with the fear mongering driving gun sales up. IMO

Yep.

Sickening to think mass shootings are money-makers for the industry.

jmo