Gun Control Debate #1

[jillycat]

The "guns don't shoot people, people shoot people" saying really annoys me.

Sure, people shoot people, but they need a gun to do that. And on this forum we have seen how many times that guns have devastated whole communities. Guns are designed to kill. That is their purpose. There is no other function for them.

Exactly, guns are designed to kill and that's why we need to stop the politicized pretense that the Armalite Rifle gun platform is a gun for 'killing' and other rifles are guns for 'hunting'.

 

[bears10]

I was reading a report, Chicago Tribune which stated that Florida shooter shot at the windows which did not break, strangely, in an attempt to shoot the running children- I could not help but wonder whether he had been influenced by Paddock..
Strangely the report went on to say that the principal had confirmed that the windows were openable!

Last night was the first time I watched CNn ( typically I tend to avoid tv coverage of major events and am usually unable to access cnn) and one of the parents was interviewed. Her words were haunting She said that the children were actually hunted down, within the school..

I think I’m misunderstanding your post bc I’m kind of confused what paddock has to do with NC shooting at running students. I’m not saying that to be rude, I’m just not connecting the dots. It’s been a long day [emoji58]

Windows can certainly be bullet resistant and also openable. It’s actually an egress issue if they aren’t openable.

 

[Inthedetails]

Thank you yes! So much this! Also the "car accidents happen so why not ban cars?" Imo it's willful ignorance. Deliberately obtuse.

Thank you! "Deliberately obtuse" is just the phrase I've been lacking - but needing - to describe what I notice in many of these divisive debates.

It's like people throw obstacles in the path...making it impossible to converse. Frustrating and very disappointing.

So...thanks!

 

[scapa]

I happen to be a proponent of more safety screening, AND voluntarily armed teachers in schools. We pay teachers to be coaches and advisory for clubs-- easy enough to solicit volunteer teachers and employees to be concealed carry "schools marshals".

The bigger issue that I see with concealed carry teachers is that inevitably a teacher will brandish their weapon, or have to shoot it. How we deal with that is a HUGE issue.

A simple part of that dilemma is that some classrooms will have armed teachers, and others won't. Would you want your student in an armed, or unarmed classroom?

Parents will demand answers to that, as well as demand the right to choose the "armed or unarmed" status of the teacher.

And think of the nightmare that would occur if kids in a classroom with an un-armed teacher were killed by a shooter, but kids in a classroom with an armed teacher fought back and killed the shooter/s. The school would be accused of not providing "equal" levels of security to the kids in the unarmed classroom. Legal and insurance nightmare.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that "all" teachers should be armed, but I do think we should seriously consider a voluntary level of concealed carry in K-12 schools. Right now, with all the "gun free" signs tacked on the doors, they are all sitting ducks for those with murderous intentions, IMO.

** And by "armed", I mean ON their person, concealed, and loaded. Not in a glass or locked box, not unloaded, not in a purse or bag.

I do believe that armed conceal carry "education marshals" would be a HUGE deterrent. I take all those surveys with a pile of salt, because of how they choose to select their survey recipients, and how they massage their categories, questions, and results. The surveys/ polls are not vetted, nor are they scientific. They are a snapshot in time of those who were selected and able to participate. "Convenience sample" at best.

What about the "voluntarily armed" teacher disarmed by a motivated student who then uses sad weapon to terrorize other students? What about the trigger-happy teacher who shoots a student bursting into a classroom for reasons other than shooting it up? What about misfiring guns, or schools without any teachers willing to carry arms?

I get that this is a valid line of argument, but advocating for more guns, and more or better armed spaces, hasn't made a difference in the US or anywhere else it's been tried. Why should it work now?

 

[bobcat]

What about the "voluntarily armed" teacher disarmed by a motivated student who then uses sad weapon to terrorize other students? What about the trigger-happy teacher who shoots a student bursting into a classroom for reasons other than shooting it up? What about misfiring guns, or schools without any teachers willing to carry arms?

I get that this is a valid line of argument, but advocating for more guns, and more or better armed spaces, hasn't made a difference in the US or anywhere else it's been tried. Why should it work now?

Where has it been tried, and not worked? I’ve heard it works pretty well in the schools in Israel.

 

[Inthedetails]

Where has it been tried, and not worked? I’ve heard it works pretty well in the schools in Israel.

Do we really want to model our schools after schools in a country that is at constant war? Is that what we've conceded - our schools are in a war zone?

I wish we could strive for better.

jmo

 

[rsd1200]

rsbm

True fact, K_Z! It's astounding to me that American civilians can legally own things like grenade launchers. Mind-boggling that some of these things are "freely" available in his country.

In 2017, a 37mm civilian version became available on the market that is not considered an NFA weapon. As the 37mm version is not classified as a "Destructive Device", it can be sold to the general public on the same ATF Form 4473 as most other firearms. This civilian version sells for around $2,000.

I find it fascinating, and a bit scary, however, I learned the other day that I can now purchase a brand new flamethrower, for $500, thanks to Elon Musk (although he's currently sold out). Then again, I live in a very loose state so nothing much surprises me.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Yup! Folks out this way love their powerful guns! ("Hold my beer!") I enjoy target shooting, but this is something else entirely. 😂 😉

The gun barrel can get VERY hot; they're made to. And yep, my understanding is they're designed for short bursts, not prolonged firing. The automatic military version of the AR-15, the M16, can do that, too.

I believe that's probably part of the reason the Vegas shooter has so many modded weapons.

Honestly? I'd never heard of them until the Vegas shooter. From what I've read, they can overheat your firearm. They're not good for them. I personally would not buy one for my semi. However, if you're someone who is out to kill folks, like trapped fish in a barrel, then you're likely not too concerned with accuracy, or your firearm. The trigger modifiers I'm not too keen on either.

 

[scapa]

Where has it been tried, and not worked? I’ve heard it works pretty well in the schools in Israel.

My point was the general (and well-studied) one that more arms does not mean more safety/less criminal use of arms.

Not sure what you mean by your second sentence. Classroom teachers are not typically armed in Israel. The much-publicized photos that lent credence to these claims have been discredited. See Snopes link below, and this quote from Israel Today:

Israel’s successful gun ownership laws both serve to make sure upstanding, brave and mentally sound citizens have access to guns, and that those who present even a minor threat are prevented from possessing one. It would be a mistake to use Israel as the poster child for more weapons in the US, as our success here is much more connected to limiting weapons and enabling strategies such as gates, fences and armed guards (not armed teachers), to protect our children. Sorry to disappoint, but the truth is important.

https://www.snopes.com/is-armed-teacher-students-israel/

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

This isn't Israel. We have a lot more guns here, and Israel's gun laws are more restrictive than ours. It's not just putting armed guards into schools.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-dismisses-us-gun-lobbys-inaccurate-claim-about-gun-laws/

Israel dismisses NRA’s claims about guns laws
School shootings were never common here, and Israel should not be invoked as ostensible proof of need for more weapons, experts say

Where has it been tried, and not worked? I’ve heard it works pretty well in the schools in Israel.

 

[rsd1200]

I was reading a report, Chicago Tribune which stated that Florida shooter shot at the windows which did not break, strangely, in an attempt to shoot the running children- I could not help but wonder whether he had been influenced by Paddock..
Strangely the report went on to say that the principal had confirmed that the windows were openable!

Last night was the first time I watched CNn ( typically I tend to avoid tv coverage of major events and am usually unable to access cnn) and one of the parents was interviewed. Her words were haunting She said that the children were actually hunted down, within the school..

Metal detectors, and manned cameras, will at least deter bringing a firearm into the school. Maybe not stop attempts, but I do believe that it will deter them from getting them inside the school. Like the 12 y/o in IN, and the kid who shot himself in Ohio. Cameras caught a kid in Philly trying to bring one inside the school today.

Bulletproof glass, like Bears has suggested, would be great for the glass in the classroom doors, and first floor windows.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/teen-caugh...ntrance-philadelphia-school/story?id=53215245

 

[flourish]

This isn't Israel. We have a lot more guns here, and Israel's gun laws are more restrictive than ours. It's not just putting armed guards into schools.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-dismisses-us-gun-lobbys-inaccurate-claim-about-gun-laws/

Israel dismisses NRA’s claims about guns laws
School shootings were never common here, and Israel should not be invoked as ostensible proof of need for more weapons, experts say

Thank you for providing links to back up your assertions [emoji4]

 

[bears10]

Metal detectors, and manned cameras, will at least deter bringing a firearm into the school. Maybe not stop attempts, but I do believe that it will deter them from getting them inside the school. Like the 12 y/o in IN, and the kid who shot himself in Ohio. Cameras caught a kid in Philly trying to bring one inside the school today.

Bulletproof glass, like Bears has suggested, would be great for the glass in the classroom doors, and first floor windows.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/teen-caugh...ntrance-philadelphia-school/story?id=53215245

In a perfect world, districts could afford metal detectors, armed guards, security cameras, bullet resistant glass, etc. Unfortunately, most can’t. I love reading about the districts who received grants for elaborate security measures. But it’s not common. So schools (especially suburban schools IME) are trying to do what they can to be proactive without making it seem like a prison.

 

[Inthedetails]

Thank you for providing links to back up your assertions [emoji4]

Yes - and thanks for the links above to Snopes as well.

Tricia reminded as on page 1 to use links like any other thread on WS (I forgot that part myself!)

 

[rsd1200]

Yup! Folks out this way love their powerful guns! ("Hold my beer!") I enjoy target shooting, but this is something else entirely.  

The gun barrel can get VERY hot; they're made to. And yep, my understanding is they're designed for short bursts, not prolonged firing. The automatic military version of the AR-15, the M16, can do that, too.

I believe that's probably part of the reason the Vegas shooter has so many modded weapons.

We do too, but they weren't really on the shelves around here. We asked our guy about them after the Vegas shooting and he said he had one, and it sat on the shelf, until AFTER the Vegas shooting. He'd been getting calls for them consistently after the Vegas Shooting. He said the company had sold out of them.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

As always, it's my pleasure, flourish!

Thank you for providing links to back up your assertions [emoji4]

 

[scapa]

The reason why people would want an “assault rifle,” if not for hunting, would be for protection from others who have them. Would you want to try to protect your family from a group of criminals with so called assault rifles when all you have is, let’s say, a 6 shot revolver? Or a bolt action deer rifle that only holds 4 cartridges? Or would you feel better having the same kind of firepower that the bad guys have?

But where does that end? How many AR-15 owners, as a percentage, own those guns because they need to be able to outshoot the bad guys, as opposed to owning them for other reasons? What if the bad guys all have bump stocks, or expertly converted AR-15s that are now fully automatic? Does every good guy then need those too?

I'm genuinely bemused by the arms-race response to an escalating social problem that takes, as far as I can tell, far more lives than it saves. The answer is always more guns. Except more guns doesn't seem to have been the answer.

I'm starting to wonder about software-enabled or smart guns, that will only fire in certain circumstances. I work in tech and have a colleague who has some research interest in this topic. I'll ping him and see what he says.

 

[kaen]

This is local to me. An 8 yr old was at school all day with a gun in his backpack. We need metal detectors now.

8-year-old found with a gun in his backpack at local elementary school

Police responded to Simon Kenton Elementary School at around 3:30 p.m. Tuesday and arrested the student in question. According to police the suspect will be charged with Illegal conveyance or possession of a deadly weapon in a school safety zone.

From the article--- The 8-year-old told police that he thought another student was going to hurt him and that is why he had a gun. The gun was found unloaded by a teacher who was putting homework in the suspect’s backpack.

This is a big fear of mine that kids just starting shooting each other or see guns as the remedy.

 

[kaen]

Metal detectors, and manned cameras, will at least deter bringing a firearm into the school. Maybe not stop attempts, but I do believe that it will deter them from getting them inside the school. Like the 12 y/o in IN, and the kid who shot himself in Ohio. Cameras caught a kid in Philly trying to bring one inside the school today.

Bulletproof glass, like Bears has suggested, would be great for the glass in the classroom doors, and first floor windows.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/teen-caugh...ntrance-philadelphia-school/story?id=53215245

Bullet proof glass means that first responders can't get in and people can't break to get out--- in case of fire or issue that would require quick exit. My school had looked at bulletproof but it was turned down because the risk of fire is much greater than a someone firing through the windows. ETA: Our local fire marshall would not approve bullet proof glass in our offices (at the front of building closest to parking area( for the same reason.

 

[rsd1200]

In a perfect world, districts could afford metal detectors, armed guards, security cameras, bullet resistant glass, etc. Unfortunately, most can’t. I love reading about the districts who received grants for elaborate security measures. But it’s not common. So schools (especially suburban schools IME) are trying to do what they can to be proactive without making it seem like a prison.

Our region is one of those. Some of our schools are barely keeping the lights on and they're proposing more budget cuts to education.

This fella has made some offers to some of our schools, including metal detectors. Some accepted them, but they are working with other schools to best approach their safety needs, from what I understand. Either way, he's being pro-active in our region.

[FONT=&quot]Brian Senters of Safehouse LLC, a local security firm, is "graciously" working with Romines to offer metal detectors to schools in the Tri-County for approximately $1,600, with the approval of each school board.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Knox County Public Schools was the first district to accept the offer, as Romines said the district purchased eight metal detectors for its schools. Another donor also contributed two metal detectors for G.R. Hampton Elementary School in Knox County.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]On Monday afternoon, Jon Akers, executive director for the Kentucky Center for School Safety, met with Corbin Independent Schools Superintendent David Cox, members of the Corbin Board of Education, principals and school resource officers to discuss the issue of school safety.[/FONT]

http://www.themoreheadnews.com/kent...cle_f250657c-df90-5d73-a785-f3bb1bec8154.html

http://www.kentucky.com/news/local/education/article200893064.html