Gun Control Debate #2

[rsd1200]

This is why I posted to Blef that I did not know if I could defend myself by killing someone else. I believe I could to defend my daughter, but myself? Don't know.

If I were a teacher, and a student came in wielding a firearm, that's a student. It's a child who I've likely taught, or come in contact with, for several years. I hear other teachers talk about students and they don't talk about them in terms of "things". They're human beings.

My son started giving teachers Hell, in the first grade, and it didn't stop til he was expelled Senior year. I drug him to GED classes, located conveniently beside my employer, he whizzed through it in record time (they were stunned). I lived at the school (I had a very family friendly employer, and my job was flexible.). They all liked my child. He just refused to obey the rules, they were not meant for him (ODD combined w/anxiety and mild Tourette's).

We, the teachers and I, came up w/a punishment idea, one of many, around 4th grade. He'd have to stay over, if he did something outlandish, and help a teacher clean their classroom. The teachers loved him! My kid is smart. Won public speaking awards, talent awards, tech savvy, etc...

There's lots of kids w/behavioral issues, but their teachers don't "hate" them. I do believe that a teacher would hesitate. They just would. I would. I'd try to distract, or get their attention, engage them, and I'd be dead, and so would my classroom. They're not LEOs, trained to shoot anyone who even appears to have a weapon, even if it's a nine year old.

I like the JustinKase. It locks those doors and keeps active shooters out. I like interior cameras b/c they can see where the shooter is roaming, and announce it over the intercom, that there's an active shooter, he's in X hall, and it's not a drill of any kind.

 

[Tawny]

If I were a teacher, and a student came in wielding a firearm, that's a student. It's a child who I've likely taught, or come in contact with, for several years. I hear other teachers talk about students and they don't talk about them in terms of "things". They're human beings.

My son started giving teachers Hell, in the first grade, and it didn't stop til he was expelled Senior year. I drug him to GED classes, located conveniently beside my employer, he whizzed through it in record time (they were stunned). I lived at the school (I had a very family friendly employer, and my job was flexible.). They all liked my child. He just refused to obey the rules, they were not meant for him (ODD combined w/anxiety and mild Tourette's).

We, the teachers and I, came up w/a punishment idea, one of many, around 4th grade. He'd have to stay over, if he did something outlandish, and help a teacher clean their classroom. The teachers loved him! My kid is smart. Won public speaking awards, talent awards, tech savvy, etc...

There's lots of kids w/behavioral issues, but their teachers don't "hate" them. I do believe that a teacher would hesitate. They just would. I would. I'd try to distract, or get their attention, engage them, and I'd be dead, and so would my classroom. They're not LEOs, trained to shoot anyone who even appears to have a weapon, even if it's a nine year old.

I like the JustinKase. It locks those doors and keeps active shooters out. I like interior cameras b/c they can see where the shooter is roaming, and announce it over the intercom, that there's an active shooter, he's in X hall, and it's not a drill of any kind.

yes! ALL OF THIS!

Good teachers talk about the students as if they are their own children. Could anyone here open fire on a child they saw as one of their own? I couldn't.

 

[rsd1200]

Thanks. Is there no other mechanism? Nothing?

There could be a public call to turn in semis. The only problem with that? You'd likely get most of them from folks who aren't going to shoot up a school. Maybe a few parents who decide they will take precaution but if they haven't noticed that little Eric or Erica has a "problem"? They'll likely not turn theirs in.

 

[rosemadderlake]

A can of Raid might be more effective, more affordible, more "right now" solution, than the time it will take to debate arming teachers...

 

[rosemadderlake]

Incapacitating flashlight- disorients the perp and makes them vomit.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/408360/the-incapacitating-flashlight/

 

[rsd1200]

I feel for the officer. He knew that if he went in that building he was likely signing his own death warrant. He had no back-up and was expected to run into a situation, by himself, and the likelihood is that he would have been gunned down by the shooter, and saved no-one. Blaming one man for a systemic failure in the government is bs. No-one knows how they would react in a situation like this one - fight, flight or freeze. It's not uncommon for well trained first responders to freeze in some situations.

The POTUS publicly blaming this man is wrong. They are having to put guards in front of his home right now. He'd have likely just been one more statistic.

With that said, he signed up for that job. He's a LEO w/a lot of experience. I don't think, however, that he thought he'd ever have to be in that position. Palmdale is rated one of the safest communities, and the school was as well, in the state, possibly on the entire eastern seaboard, iirc. He was pulling down over $75k a year. It was a nice job. He froze. I don't know if he could have gone in there and engaged, and killed, the shooter and saved anyone or not. I really doubt it, tbh. However, he will pay for his inaction for the rest of his life. No need hanging him out to dry, use it as an example of why teachers should not be armed.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Former Florida congressmen say gun control measures need to go much further

http://www.tampabay.com/article/20180223/ARTICLE/302239705

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Governor proposes sweeping changes to Vermont gun laws

http://www.mynbc5.com/article/governor-proposes-sweeping-changes-to-vermont-gun-laws/18661111

 

[Elley Mae]

Snip
In February 2016, neighbors told police that they were worried he “planned to shoot up the school”

https://www.naplesnews.com/story/ne...etails-his-homicidal-intentions-mo/365975002/

Snip
About two months later, an unidentified caller told police that Cruz had been collecting guns and knives.

Snip
A second cousin asked police to take away Cruz's guns after his mom died on November 1.

Snip
After the February 2016 call, a deputy forwarded the information to the Stoneman Douglas School Resource Officer, Deputy Scot Peterson.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Lawsuit filed against store that sold guns used in Kansas mass shooting

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...d-guns-2016-kansas-workplace-shooting-n850421

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Florida Gov. Rick Scott backs raising age for gun purchases to 21 | Washington Post

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...c444f6-18a6-11e8-8b08-027a6ccb38eb_story.html

 

[Blef]

Snip
In February 2016, neighbors told police that they were worried he “planned to shoot up the school”

https://www.naplesnews.com/story/ne...etails-his-homicidal-intentions-mo/365975002/

Snip
About two months later, an unidentified caller told police that Cruz had been collecting guns and knives.

Snip
A second cousin asked police to take away Cruz's guns after his mom died on November 1.

Snip
After the February 2016 call, a deputy forwarded the information to the Stoneman Douglas School Resource Officer, Deputy Scot Peterson.

It is hard to criticise police though, because he has a right to own guns, through the 2nd amendment. The police can't remove his guns or arrest him for a crime he might possibly commit in the future, as they don't know if he was going to do anything.

 

[Lilibet]

If I were a teacher, and a student came in wielding a firearm, that's a student. It's a child who I've likely taught, or come in contact with, for several years. I hear other teachers talk about students and they don't talk about them in terms of "things". They're human beings.

My son started giving teachers Hell, in the first grade, and it didn't stop til he was expelled Senior year. I drug him to GED classes, located conveniently beside my employer, he whizzed through it in record time (they were stunned). I lived at the school (I had a very family friendly employer, and my job was flexible.). They all liked my child. He just refused to obey the rules, they were not meant for him (ODD combined w/anxiety and mild Tourette's).

We, the teachers and I, came up w/a punishment idea, one of many, around 4th grade. He'd have to stay over, if he did something outlandish, and help a teacher clean their classroom. The teachers loved him! My kid is smart. Won public speaking awards, talent awards, tech savvy, etc...

There's lots of kids w/behavioral issues, but their teachers don't "hate" them. I do believe that a teacher would hesitate. They just would. I would. I'd try to distract, or get their attention, engage them, and I'd be dead, and so would my classroom. They're not LEOs, trained to shoot anyone who even appears to have a weapon, even if it's a nine year old.

I like the JustinKase. It locks those doors and keeps active shooters out. I like interior cameras b/c they can see where the shooter is roaming, and announce it over the intercom, that there's an active shooter, he's in X hall, and it's not a drill of any kind.

yes! ALL OF THIS!

Good teachers talk about the students as if they are their own children. Could anyone here open fire on a child they saw as one of their own? I couldn't.

Great posts! My husband taught for 29 years...first fifth grade and then second. His students returned to visit him at school through high school and even have contacted him well into adulthood. Any one of them could have entered his class with a gun. No way could he take aim and shoot one of them, even years later.

Yes, he had occasion to tell a few parents that without intervention their child could end up in trouble with the law. But could he have shot at even the “worst” kids? Of course not! He told me more than once that he would give his life to protect “his kids.” I don’t think I would want my child in a classroom with a teacher willing to kill. Too much could go wrong and too much is wrong with that picture.
JMO

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Was everyone afraid of violating Cruz’s second amendment rights?

Honest question.

Snip
In February 2016, neighbors told police that they were worried he “planned to shoot up the school”

https://www.naplesnews.com/story/ne...etails-his-homicidal-intentions-mo/365975002/

Snip
About two months later, an unidentified caller told police that Cruz had been collecting guns and knives.

Snip
A second cousin asked police to take away Cruz's guns after his mom died on November 1.

Snip
After the February 2016 call, a deputy forwarded the information to the Stoneman Douglas School Resource Officer, Deputy Scot Peterson.

 

[kittythehare]

Was everyone afraid of violating Cruz’s second amendment rights?

Honest question.

That was my understanding from all I read and heard.
No law exists that allows them to remove his weapons.
Broward Sheriff gave 2 lengthy pressers , one on Thursday.. can be found on his Twitter page.

 

[Blef]

Was everyone afraid of violating Cruz’s second amendment rights?

Honest question.

:clap:

 

[Jinkasaurus]

I think we need to realize that there is no ONE intervention that will solve this problem. I've seen a number of comments (not directed to anyone in particular) that criticize a suggestion by stating the reasons that particular change won't stop another shooting, or wouldn't have helped in shooting x, y, or z.

There is the saying "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." By spending our time rejecting any suggestion because its not perfect, we are missing that there is some good that could come from that suggestion - for example, limiting the capacity of magazines.

Our President has managed to focus the dialogue about this topic on arming teachers.

We need to keep our minds open and think about how multiple changes in laws can work together to decrease the odds that another event can happen.

A person hell-bent on committing a crime like this will always have the upper hand to a certain extent because they have the element of surprise on their side.

Our society needs to start teaching us to pay better attention to the warning signs these folks show. There are hundreds of thwarted plots every year. But those don't make the news like a mass shooting does. Maybe we need to ask the media to start covering those more often, so that people will begin to realize that they can do something about this.

 

[K_Z]

Teachers and conceal carry on campus-- lots of links and food for thought:

What it's like for one teacher who already carries a gun

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-its-like-for-one-teacher-who-already-carries-a-gun/

Educators from 12 states take 3-day firearms course

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teachers-course-school-shootings/

FASTER stands for Faculty / Administrator Safety Training & Emergency Response.

Created by concerned parents, law enforcement, and nationally-recognized safety and medical experts, FASTER is a groundbreaking, nonprofit program that gives educators practical violence response training.

Funded by donations, classes are provided at NO COST to your school district!

The program offers a carefully-structured curriculum offering over 26 hours of hands-on training over a 3-day class that exceeds the requirements of the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy.

The purpose is not to replace police and EMT, but to allow teachers, administrators, and other personnel on-site to stop school violence rapidly and render medical aid immediately.

When violence strikes and students’ lives are on the line, every second matters. Faster response is better response.

FASTER saves lives!

http://fastersaveslives.org/

Colorado school district will allow teachers to carry guns

https://nypost.com/2016/12/15/colorado-school-district-will-allow-teachers-to-carry-guns/

Utah already allows concealed weapons on campus. Could arming teachers stop shootings?

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/02...-campus-could-arming-teachers-stop-shootings/

Some Teachers Already Have Guns
At least eight states allow faculty to carry weapons; critics say that policy is dangerous

https://www.wsj.com/articles/some-teachers-already-have-guns-1519347813

Can Miss Crabtree pack heat? These 18 states allow K-12 teachers to carry.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/c...-allow-k-12-teachers-to-carry/article/2649321

Alabama not the only state considering guns for teachers

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2018/02/alabama_not_the_only_state_con.html

Where Guns Are Allowed on Campus
As of 2016, nine state legislatures will allow for “campus carry.”

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/10/where-guns-are-allowed-on-campus/412708/

110 Texas school districts allow teachers to carry guns

http://news4sanantonio.com/news/local/tasb-110-school-districts-allow-teachers-to-carry-guns

Which local school districts allow teachers to carry guns?

(Ohio)

http://wkbn.com/2018/02/20/which-local-school-districts-allow-teachers-to-carry-guns/

There are many, many articles about legal conceal carry by teachers in various locations. The recent (in the last week) discussions about teacher carry are not "new". Many states are coming to the conclusion that it is part of the strategy to manage school shootings. Not the total solution, but part of the strategy. Certainly it is not a palatable proposal in largely left leaning geographic areas. However, IMO, these left leaning areas are a minority of the entire country, and very confined areas. The rest of so-called "fly over country" are more willing to consider all areas that might save kids, and are in general, much more educated and competent about what guns can and cannot do.

The issue we are currently experiencing with glittery prime time propaganda spectacles like the CNN Townhall is that the anti-gun media, and Hollywood celebrities, have a much more visible, well funded, and vocal "anti gun" platform than most moderate and reasonable problem solvers, IMO.

 

[Blef]

Teachers and conceal carry on campus-- lots of links and food for thought:



https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-its-like-for-one-teacher-who-already-carries-a-gun/



https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teachers-course-school-shootings/



http://fastersaveslives.org/



https://nypost.com/2016/12/15/colorado-school-district-will-allow-teachers-to-carry-guns/



https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/02...-campus-could-arming-teachers-stop-shootings/



https://www.wsj.com/articles/some-teachers-already-have-guns-1519347813



http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/c...-allow-k-12-teachers-to-carry/article/2649321



http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2018/02/alabama_not_the_only_state_con.html



https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/10/where-guns-are-allowed-on-campus/412708/



http://news4sanantonio.com/news/local/tasb-110-school-districts-allow-teachers-to-carry-guns

(Ohio)

http://wkbn.com/2018/02/20/which-local-school-districts-allow-teachers-to-carry-guns/

There are many, many articles about legal conceal carry by teachers in various locations. The recent (in the last week) discussions about teacher carry are not "new". Many states are coming to the conclusion that it is part of the strategy to manage school shootings. Not the total solution, but part of the strategy. Certainly it is not a palatable proposal in largely left leaning geographic areas. However, IMO, these left leaning areas are a minority of the entire country, and very confined areas. The rest of so-called "fly over country" are more willing to consider all areas that might save kids, and are in general, much more educated and competent about what guns can and cannot do.

The issue we are currently experiencing with glittery prime time propaganda spectacles like the CNN Townhall is that the anti-gun media, and Hollywood celebrities, have a much more visible, well funded, and vocal "anti gun" platform than most moderate and reasonable problem solvers, IMO.

And on the other side of the coin you have the NRA (an extremely wealthy lobby group) and Fox news which will give the opposite platform as much hype as they want.

I would argue that most sensible gun owners would welcome better gun control to stop tragedies like these from happening. That doesn't mean that guns need to be prohibited, just extremely tightly regulated.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Ugh, I’m sorry, Elley. It wasn’t specifically directed at you. Apologies I wasn’t clearer.

It’s a general question for everyone here.

Was everyone afraid of violating Cruz’s second amendment rights?

Honest question.

How would I know?