Gun Control Debate #2

[bobcat]

Where would the position be? The school is rather large, no? And he was not on the ground floor. Is that right?

That would be up to him. I wasn't there. All I know is NOT going after the shooter was the wrong thing to do. There was no chance of saving lives with the way he stayed outside hiding behind a car. Why was he paid all those years to do a job and when the time comes when he's really needed, he does nothing?

 

[Safeguard]

Where I live, domestic violence is starting to be addressed. There is a lot of it. But there are no guns so no mass killings here.

When I went to a conference on domestic violence in Minnesota a few years ago, there were people from all over the world in attendance,

I was involved with a group from Australia and England. They were social workers. They said that the victims of DV did not usually die because of lack of the ability to get a gun.

Do you feel this to be accurate?

Yes. I would say that's accurate. It's also quite unacceptable to me, that in this country, and others, violent felons are released early, or given light sentences/probation, due to money, and far more lives are lost than in parkland, one here, two there, so it doesn't have quite the impact and media coverage, but little Cherish Perrywinkle would probably tell you, that it is a huge, big deal, that we don't value lives over money... and until we do they'll be no reduction in the senseless loss of lives.

We can debate gun control forever, it's not going to impact, cruel, senseless deaths, that have become acceptable somehow. jmo

 

[flourish]

All guns can be deadly. But what I was referring to was the notion that someone with a handgun has zero chance against someone armed with an AR-15. Simply not true. Especially when the handgun is in the hands of an experienced and trained officer. No matter what, he should have gone into the school. He’s lying if he said he thought the shots were coming from outside. He called in and gave a description of the shooter! So he had seen him at some point. But he chose to be a coward and hid behind a car outside while children were being killed inside.

Please provide one or more links to support your assertions. Thanks.

:laughing: Sorry you'll need to do your own research. I have no links. I'm posting my opinions. What sort of links are you looking for?

Something to back up your accusations, which you stated as fact, is what I was looking for.

Knowing they're just your opinion with nothing to support them is helpful enough information. Typically, people here provide links to articles, studies, etc. to show things they are indicating is fact is actually factual. One doesn't have to, but it does impact how much weight one's argument is given. If that matters to a person...ymmv.

 

[Tillicum]

It doesn't matter if he did or not because it doesn't take a lot of muscle to operate one of these.

I agree the AR 15 is easy to handle. Easier than a 44 IMO.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

You know the saying that is touted around, “when seconds matter, LE is only a few minutes away”.
And the sad irony to this tragic shooting incident is that LE was actually right there. Stationed there.

If LE protocol was broken and he was suppose to go towards the shooter (& I’m saying “if” because it’s all being reviewed/investigated now) what can we expect from LE in the future? Slippery slope?

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

On Fox News TV just now, supposedly the FBI has the school surveillance footage ...

 

[rsd1200]

So are we going to just ignore that someone with experience is saying it doesn't take massive muscles nor extensive training to use that to murder dozens?

Because I mean, that's what Cruz did...

I agree with you, Tawny.

I'm 5'7, and what I'd call, of average weight, and I'm no spring chicken anymore. I have quite a few old injuries, and, my hands aren't as steady as they once were. However, I had no problem getting the feel of, and shooting, our semi. It only weighs 6.5 pounds, easy to grip, very little kick, and it came with a 30 round magazine. The hardest thing for me, is loading magazines, due to a hand injury. I prefer revolvers, but, see the reason why folks enjoy shooting the semis. It does not take a heavyweight to fire a semi. I'm by no means muscular, nor heavyset. Just an average sized female.

 

[flourish]

Okay, well I'll keep that in mind. It's hard to do that sometimes when I'm using my phone and I'm at work with not a lot of extra time. A lot of the time things I post just seem like common sense to me and shouldn't need anything to back it up.

It can be a pain on a phone. However, in my personal opinion, stating someone chose to hide instead of helping those children are some pretty strong words, and I personally like to have some kind of evidence or something to support my words when they're of such a nature. But, that's just my preference for me personally, as I feel it helps my credibility. I'm not trying to tell you what to do or how to do it. Just my own opinion.

You will, however, likely continue to be asked for links, so I guess this is a heads up on that? [emoji111]

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I agree with you, Tawny.

I'm 5'7, and what I'd call, of average weight, and I'm no spring chicken anymore. I have quite a few old injuries, and, my hands aren't as steady as they once were. However, I had no problem getting the feel of, and shooting, our semi. It only weighs 6.5 pounds, easy to grip, very little kick, and it came with a 30 round magazine. The hardest thing for me, is loading magazines, due to a hand injury. I prefer revolvers, but, see the reason why folks enjoy shooting the semis. It does not take a heavyweight to fire a semi. I'm by no means muscular, nor heavyset. Just an average sized female.

My main point which is being lost is that it is **possible** that if the Deputy responded by going into the school, there is a chance the outcome could’ve been less victims. And I gave quite a few variables. I did not just focus on one. No one here has a crystal ball. Perhaps the Deputy could’ve had a perfect shot as the shooter was climbing the stairs?

Most importantly, If there is a protocol for police action with expectations (& I feel we will find out more as the investigation unfolds) what happens the next time there’s an emergency & the response is out of the expected? LE can’t make up what they feel like doing during situations because we will all be in a precarious spot.

 

[bluesneakers]

It doesn't matter if he did or not because it doesn't take a lot of muscle to operate one of these.

I agree with you.

There are charts here for military height and weight requirement. Minimum for females is 58" and 91 pounds.

https://www.thebalance.com/weight-charts-3344603

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

It can be a pain on a phone. However, in my personal opinion, stating someone chose to hide instead of helping those children are some pretty strong words, and I personally like to have some kind of evidence or something to support my words when they're of such a nature. But, that's just my preference for me personally, as I feel it helps my credibility. I'm not trying to tell you what to do or how to do it. Just my own opinion.






Is the Deputy still on the force?

 

[flourish]

IS the deputy on the force? Certainly not or you wouldn't ask in that way, but I don't know his current status, which is also why initial links are handy, but I realize this is getting more to the topic of the other thread more specific to the recent Florida shooting, so I'll look over there.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

IS the deputy on the force? Certainly not or you wouldn't ask in that way, but I don't know his current status, which is also why initial links are handy, but I realize this is getting more to the topic of the other thread more specific to the recent Florida shooting, so I'll look over there.

I am just asking a question. Fired? Resigned? Suspended pending investigation? Or maybe there’s add’l investigation into add’l deputies? I really don’t know....

 

[rsd1200]

I agree the AR 15 is easy to handle. Easier than a 44 IMO.

Mine is not an AR-15, but, I agree that our semi is easier to handle than a 44. The recoil on our 44 was pretty rough (for me anyway) but it was a beautiful firearm. I hated to see it go.

 

[rsd1200]

My main point which is being lost is that it is **possible** that if the Deputy responded by going into the school, there is a chance the outcome could’ve been less victims. And I gave quite a few variables. I did not just focus on one. No one here has a crystal ball. Perhaps the Deputy could’ve had a perfect shot as the shooter was climbing the stairs?

Most importantly, If there is a protocol for police action with expectations (& I feel we will find out more as the investigation unfolds) what happens the next time there’s an emergency & the response is out of the expected? LE can’t make up what they feel like doing during situations because we will all be in a precarious spot.

I was responding to the theme that this kid had to be very experienced with the semi, and therefore, that was a reason for LE to stand down. My point was that if you've any firearm experience it's just not that hard to be comfortable with, and fire, a semi.

However, as I stated in my previous post, LE is also supposed to train, and be capable and comfortable with their firearms, and capable of attempting to take down a threat, by firing at center mass. The deputy at the school, was paid at least $75k per year to protect that school. It was considered one of the safest schools on the eastern seaboard, iirc. I don't think that he ever thought he'd be in that position, it was a nice job, and he froze when the time came. Seems three other deputies were in the parking lot, behind vehicles, too. I think he ****** up. He'll have that to live with that the rest of his life.

 

[bobcat]

It can be a pain on a phone. However, in my personal opinion, stating someone chose to hide instead of helping those children are some pretty strong words, and I personally like to have some kind of evidence or something to support my words when they're of such a nature. But, that's just my preference for me personally, as I feel it helps my credibility. I'm not trying to tell you what to do or how to do it. Just my own opinion.

You will, however, likely continue to be asked for links, so I guess this is a heads up on that? [emoji111]

On that subject I am only going by what the sheriff said. Maybe he lied? In that case I guess what I stated would be wrong. But I thought the sheriff's statement should be about as credible as you can get.

 

[Safeguard]

On that subject I am only going by what the sheriff said. Maybe he lied? In that case I guess what I stated would be wrong. But I thought the sheriff's statement should be about as credible as you can get.

BBM
I definitely see what you're saying but personally, I only consider a persons opinion, "creditable" if it was of no benefit to them to lie. The unnecessary venom, the merciless assault on the guards character, made me suspicious of the sheriff from the get-go. I instantly thought he was deflecting blame because he had no evidence to back up his claims of cowardice on the part of the guard. To simply state that the deputy did not follow protocol, and was suspended, would have been enough if he hadn't been deflecting imo

 

[bobcat]

BBM
I definitely see what you're saying but personally, I only consider a persons opinion, "creditable" if it was of no benefit to them to lie. The unnecessary venom, the merciless assault on the guards character, made me suspicious of the sheriff from the get-go. I instantly thought he was deflecting blame because he had no evidence to back up his claims of cowardice on the part of the guard. To simply state that the deputy did not follow protocol, and was suspended, would have been enough if he hadn't been deflecting imo

I actually did mean to use the word "credible"

Definition of credible
1 : offering reasonable grounds for being believed

a credible account of the accident

credible witnesses

2 : of sufficient capability to be militarily effective

a credible deterrent

credible forces

— credibly play \ˈkre-də-blē\ adverb

 

[Safeguard]

I actually did mean to use the word "credible"

Broward didn't have a creditable account of the incident. Other than to say, the deputy didn't go in when he should have.

( and adding the unnecessary adjectives revolting sickening ect)...

He wouldn't release the tape, or offer the deputies point of view, not at all credible in my opinion. I want a full accounting... not just what you'd like people to think, before I consider someone creditable.

I've never been one of those ,"if LE says it's so, it's so" kind of people, I like to wait and see what shakes out. Believe It or not law enforcement officials lie all the time.

 

[Springrain]

By arming a teacher in the classroom, you're asking them to be ready and set to shoot at a moment's notice. The teachers would be ready to attack 24/7 on the job - "FBI hostage rescue level qualified." It cannot reasonably be expected of teachers to be FBI hostage rescue level qualified AND teach classes of what are often 30+ children. It's just not practical.