Gun Control Debate #2

[enelram]

Hooray for Dicks!

Looks like Walmart stopped selling assault rifles in 2015, not for political reasons but for "lagging sales'.
So maybe this move by Dick's, while great PR, was done simply for business reasons plus free PR.
Now if we could get a federal ban so little local gun shops and gun shows are included.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareo...-firearms-used-in-mass-killings/#2d2096f92a63

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Correct.

For context, the officers have said the shooter was outside the building, iirc.

So I'm hypothesizing from that perspective.

They were to determining the location of the shooter and gunfire, according to their statements. (I assume, as well, they didn't know how many shooters. And, factually, first reports said "firecrackers," so there's that, too.) They took cover while they did it. IMO, it's contrary to training and safety protocols to run out into the open and start firing without attempting to determine the facts mentioned above. Those school grounds are massive.

I don't see anything unreasonable, cowardly or improper if that's the scenario that occurred. JMO

I'd love to discuss it more in the school shooting thread, if y'all wanna join me.

I'm no coward, says deputy who didn't go inside Parkland school during massacre
http://www.sentinelsource.com/mccla...cle_4e9cd8b7-9bbf-57cb-9b45-aae09286bcc4.html

In a statement released by his lawyer, Peterson said he "heard gunshots but believed those gunshots were originating from outside of the buildings on the school campus," according to the release. "BSO trains its officers that in the event of outdoor gunfire one is to seek cover and assess the situation in order to communicate what one observes with other law enforcement."

(snip) The veteran school resource officer said he "took up a tactical position" between two others buildings next to Building 12. (snip)

BSO's policy states that an officer "may" — not "must" — enter a building when an active shooter is attacking, meaning Peterson might not have violated any technical rules. Police tactical experts say most active-shooter training calls for cops to identify the location of a gunman, whether inside or outside.

​

(rs/bbm)

While I disagree with the way that the Sheriff seemed to lay all blame on that one deputy, there were eyewitnesses, and they were not only of the one deputy. Even after other LEOs arrived, he never entered the building. It was his job to find, distract, engage, the shooter.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Hm. Insightful post, enelram. I've read that the American market for AR15-style rifles is "saturated," so I bet there's a lot of truth in your statement.

AR-15 Rifles Are Beloved, Reviled and a Common Element in Mass Shootings
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/...d-and-a-common-element-in-mass-shootings.html

The National Rifle Association has taken to calling the AR-15 “America’s rifle.”

Though the federal government does not keep track of exactly how many AR-15s are in circulation, experts estimate that there are easily several million in the nation’s rifle racks and gun safes — a huge number, given that the gun, along with other so-called assault weapons, was banned under federal law from 1994 to 2004.​

Looks like Walmart stopped selling assault rifles in 2015, not for political reasons but for "lagging sales'.

So maybe this move by Dick's, while great PR, was done simply for business reasons plus free PR.
Now if we could get a federal ban so little local gun shops and gun shows are included.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareo...-firearms-used-in-mass-killings/#2d2096f92a63

 

[Springrain]

bbm
That's just not true. In my opinion that's a hysterical projection.

First of all, no one is asking teachers to do anything they aren't comfortable doing. Presumably most teachers are intelligent enough to reason out that choice for themselves.

Secondly, if a teacher is already comfortably carrying at home, I'm sure they're not just hyper-vigilant, walking around waiting to shoot someone 24/7...

They take care of their kids, grade papers make dinner, walk the dog Etc...
Those are the teachers who would likely not have any problem going about there school duties carrying or not.

It seems like some people are acting like teachers are going to be forced to arm themselves, whether they want to or not, when that's just not the case.

There are plenty of teachers that already carry at school and I'm not hearing about any problems with that.

Firstly, I need to add that I'm working towards a degree in elementary education, so I'm looking at this through a much different lense than you are (unless you are a teacher, or training to become one as well).

Yes, there's been no talk or arming teachers against their will. But the VAST majority of teachers, want nothing to do with guns in schools.

There's a BIG difference between being armed when you're at home and in a classroom. Have you taught or aided with a class of 30+ kids? You'll have screaming, fights, injuries, crying, and, depending on the grades, probably potty accidents. There's a LOT going on in a classroom. And yes, they are being trained to be hyper-vigilant. You HAVE to be if you're in a classroom with a gun. If you're not hyper-vigiliant, the kids will be curious and trying to get into it, or will be terrified and unfocused. If a teacher is armed, it's because they are ready to attack.

Yes, I'm aware that teachers aren't being forced to arm themselves. But who knows how many students will be in classrooms with an armed teacher. I don't want armed teachers, period, and a lot of teachers don't want guns on campus.

There's no studies or statistics proving the usefulness of arming teachers, at least that I could find.

 

[jillycat]

I just read where Nick Cruz's mother was an addict and he was conceived during a one-night stand. He very well could have been a crack baby. Society has to change. This single mother thing having kids with no marriage and no father does NOT cut it. Every child deserves a warm loving home. The majority of kids in trouble do not have this.

I'm not sure how we know when the point of conception occurred. But "single parent home" is not correlative to absence of a warm loving home. Any more than married guarantees a warm and loving home.

 

[southernmimi]

This past weekend, several were injured during a drive by shooting at a Dollar General store in a very small town nearby. One man was taken to the hospital for a chest wound. There were an estimated 30 people in the store or parking area. LE said "15 to 20" shots were randomly fired into the store. On a much smaller scale, this action reflects the same mentality as a school shooter. Easy access to guns may be a part of the problem, but that ship has sailed. I'd like to understand why anyone would consider this on a Sunday afternoon in a town of less than one thousand population. No thought nor consideration of who would be injured or killed...just randomly shooting. No one has been arrested yet.

 

[Tawny]

I'm not sure how we know when the point of conception occurred. But "single parent home" is not correlative to absence of a warm loving home. Any more than married guarantees a warm and loving home.

I agree with this and it frustrates me every time someone blames it on single parents. It's such an insult to people who are working hard and trying their best to raise good, healthy, strong children. There are plenty of married folks who beat the **** out of each other and their kids come out deeply traumatized by it.

This past weekend, several were injured during a drive by shooting at a Dollar General store in a very small town nearby. One man was taken to the hospital for a chest wound. There were an estimated 30 people in the store or parking area. LE said "15 to 20" shots were randomly fired into the store. On a much smaller scale, this action reflects the same mentality as a school shooter. Easy access to guns may be a part of the problem, but that ship has sailed. I'd like to understand why anyone would consider this on a Sunday afternoon in a town of less than one thousand population. No thought nor consideration of who would be injured or killed...just randomly shooting. No one has been arrested yet.

No, it hasn't. Yes, there are guns on the street, but that doesn't mean we should just keep on adding more and more to the streets because we don't know how to get the existing ones back.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

The real reason the NRA wins

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nra-gets-spends-money-213800803.html?.tsrc=jtc_news_index

To its many critics, the National Rifle Association is a bottomless source of funds able to buy off politicians everywhere in order to protect gun rights.

In reality, the NRA is a medium-sized interest group that is undoubtedly influential, but is nowhere near the biggest spender in politics. Its ability to stave off gun-control laws in the aftermath of school massacres may have more to do with its effectiveness as an advocacy group, honed over decades, than with the amount of money it spends.

The NRA has one other advantage: The opposition is poorly funded. While polls show Americans generally favor stricter gun laws—and outrage seems to be mounting following the February 14 mass murder at a Florida high school—that hasn’t generated a spending surge on gun-control candidates. In the 2016 election cycle, the NRA outspent the leading gun-control group, Americans for Responsible Solutions, by at least 4-to-1—and possibly by much more. Among advocacy groups that tend to support Democrats and liberal causes, the big money goes toward environmental issues and women’s rights, not gun control.

 

[Blef]

You keep calling him a security guard- he was a police officer. Trained in exactly what to do in these types of situations. Yes, why wouldn’t he get close? Come up behind the shooter while he’s focused on shooting the children in front of him.

Maybe because he had no clue where/how many shooters there were. How can he sneak up on a guy armed with a weapon that outfires his pistol hugely, on his own. Would you be willing to risk more children's lives?

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

I'm not sure how we know when the point of conception occurred. But "single parent home" is not correlative to absence of a warm loving home. Any more than married guarantees a warm and loving home.

BBM

... like this warm and loving Turpin family...

 

[Blef]

People are forgetting that the first rule of a first responder is to not put yourself in danger to help someone. Especially if you are on your own. Some people think that this cop/guard should have ran into the school, putting himself and panicked, traumatised children and teachers in more danger by discharging his gun, causing more bullets to be flying around. When there is a group of you there, you can organise so that you and your colleagues are in the least danger possible to go and help someone. Signing up as a cop/first responder doesn't mean you sign a suicide pact to go running into an obviously dangerous situation, where you aren't sure about who/how many people are attacking others.

Criticising the cop/guard is interesting. Would people criticise a teacher who didn't shoot back if they were armed because they froze? Humans are humans and none of us can say what we would do in this situation.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Looks like Walmart stopped selling assault rifles in 2015, not for political reasons but for "lagging sales'.
So maybe this move by Dick's, while great PR, was done simply for business reasons plus free PR.
Now if we could get a federal ban so little local gun shops and gun shows are included.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareo...-firearms-used-in-mass-killings/#2d2096f92a63

Dicks is a really comprehensive store that's been around for a long time. And they are going a lot further than discontinuing the AR15. They are just not waiting for congress on age req. and Hi Cap Mags, etc. They also took a stand after Sandy Hook, too. So no, I don't think it is for free PR. Imo

Their statement is a bold statement. If they were being merely political, or bottom line driven, they might not have adopted this stance. In their attached statement, they are calling for what most people are calling for. And maybe they are as wary as those school kids, too. How many more of these massacres can we endure while waiting for some common sense action...


Dick's Sporting Goods Statement

 

[Tawny]

The real reason the NRA wins

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nra-gets-spends-money-213800803.html?.tsrc=jtc_news_index

To its many critics, the National Rifle Association is a bottomless source of funds able to buy off politicians everywhere in order to protect gun rights.

In reality, the NRA is a medium-sized interest group that is undoubtedly influential, but is nowhere near the biggest spender in politics. Its ability to stave off gun-control laws in the aftermath of school massacres may have more to do with its effectiveness as an advocacy group, honed over decades, than with the amount of money it spends.

The NRA has one other advantage: The opposition is poorly funded. While polls show Americans generally favor stricter gun laws—and outrage seems to be mounting following the February 14 mass murder at a Florida high school—that hasn’t generated a spending surge on gun-control candidates. In the 2016 election cycle, the NRA outspent the leading gun-control group, Americans for Responsible Solutions, by at least 4-to-1—and possibly by much more. Among advocacy groups that tend to support Democrats and liberal causes, the big money goes toward environmental issues and women’s rights, not gun control.

Losing because they're doing the right thing.

Good has to follow rules, evil never bothers.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Dicks is a really comprehensive store that's been around for a long time. And they are going a lot further than discontinuing the AR15. They are just not waiting for congress on age req. and Hi Cap Mags, etc. They also took a stand after Sandy Hook, too. So no, I don't think it is for free PR. Imo

Their statement is a bold statement. If they were being merely political, or bottom line driven, they might not have adopted this stance. In their attached statement, they are calling for what most people are calling for. And maybe they are as wary as those school kids, too. How many more of these massacres can we endure while waiting for some common sense action...


Dick's Sporting Goods Statement

View attachment 130774

Maybe it is PR. If they took a stand after Sandy Hook they shouldn't need to take a stand now. IMO

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

People are forgetting that the first rule of a first responder is to not put yourself in danger to help someone. Especially if you are on your own. Some people think that this cop/guard should have ran into the school, putting himself and panicked, traumatised children and teachers in more danger by discharging his gun, causing more bullets to be flying around. When there is a group of you there, you can organise so that you and your colleagues are in the least danger possible to go and help someone. Signing up as a cop/first responder doesn't mean you sign a suicide pact to go running into an obviously dangerous situation, where you aren't sure about who/how many people are attacking others.

Criticising the cop/guard is interesting. Would people criticise a teacher who didn't shoot back if they were armed because they froze? Humans are humans and none of us can say what we would do in this situation.

A lot has changed since Columbine. The officer is trained to go toward the gun fire to save as many lives as possible.

Fight, flight or freeze? Officers rarely fail to confront threat, experts say

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...s-rarely-fail-confront-threat-experts-n850706

Still, Peterson's apparent lack of action is surprising: Decades ago, lone officers used to wait for SWAT teams to arrive to neutralize active shooters. But tactics changed after the 1999 Columbine attack, and patrol officers have since been trained to respond to active shooters as quickly as possible to avoid further loss of life, according to the Police Executive Research Forum.

Regardless of what he was thinking, psychologists say, Peterson is probably struggling in the aftermath of the massacre.

"Officers have very high standards for themselves," Kirschman said. "Officers can really torment themselves as well as being tormented by the public. That happens all the time."

 

[Blef]

A lot has changed since Columbine. The officer is trained to go toward the gun fire to save as many lives as possible.

Fight, flight or freeze? Officers rarely fail to confront threat, experts say

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...s-rarely-fail-confront-threat-experts-n850706

Still, Peterson's apparent lack of action is surprising: Decades ago, lone officers used to wait for SWAT teams to arrive to neutralize active shooters. But tactics changed after the 1999 Columbine attack, and patrol officers have since been trained to respond to active shooters as quickly as possible to avoid further loss of life, according to the Police Executive Research Forum.

Regardless of what he was thinking, psychologists say, Peterson is probably struggling in the aftermath of the massacre.

"Officers have very high standards for themselves," Kirschman said. "Officers can really torment themselves as well as being tormented by the public. That happens all the time."

RBBM. This is what I really worry about. When the President is so harshly critical of someone who probably puts a lot of pressure on himself as part of his job, then I truly worry about how this man is going to cope. I hope he is getting some therapy to help him deal with what he is going through. I have no doubts he is blaming himself at this point, and the public criticism won't be helping him.

 

[bluedivergirl]

Exactly. As I said, my hubby's 22 was made automatic in under an hour.

He feels bullets should be expensive. All semi automatics including handguns banned.

Modifying a gun to make it fully automatic is illegal. I know you know that. I'm struggling with your point.

I'm not aware of any crimes committed with modified weapons. Should all guns be banned because they could be modified?

Semi-autos have a place in hunting and self-defense.

I do think magazines should be restricted. Perhaps six rounds. A bit annoying for skeet and shooting clays, but I still think it should be restricted.

Did you know you can reload ammo? It is much more cost effective.

Where do we stop?

 

[bluedivergirl]

By scary, are you implying deadly?

I'm answering for him/her ~ but no. All weapons are deadly. The weapons built with beautiful wood and golden triggers are just as deadly as those with black fittings and many hand-holds.

It is all window-dressing. It doesn't change the mechanics of the gun.

That said, I would approve banning AR 15s because of their appeal to those bent on harm.

 

[Blef]

Modifying a gun to make it fully automatic is illegal. I know you know that. I'm struggling with your point.

I'm not aware of any crimes committed with modified weapons. Should all guns be banned because they could be modified?

Semi-autos have a place in hunting and self-defense.

I do think magazines should be restricted. Perhaps six rounds. A bit annoying for skeet and shooting clays, but I still think it should be restricted.

Did you know you can reload ammo? It is much more cost effective.

Where do we stop?

Maybe start by making semi-auto ammo more expensive.

 

[flourish]

The first thing any first responder is supposed to do is assess the situation. My sources for that are cpr classes for the past three decades, and if you Google "first responder protocols assess" you can find numerous instruction and training documents saying that, too. Nowhere does it instruct anyone to enter a scene without assessing it first--exactly the opposite. It doesn't say anywhere that you're just supposed to enter an unknown scene. To avoid further injuries one must know what they're going into.

So why is this guy not being allowed to do that or bring criticized for doing so?

It reminds me of when I'm driving and have to make a turn against traffic. The guy behind me might think I have plenty of time to make the turn and start honking at me, but he's not seeing it from my angle, nor is he familiar with my car and it's "putt putt" nature. No, it's easier to just honk and try to bully me into making what I consider an unsafe maneuver.

Unless a person was present for this incident I don't understand why anyone thinks they can reasonably criticize this guy. How were the gunshots echoing? How was he to know how many shooters were there? He would assess, that's how. But that takes a moment.

Again, not assessing a scene puts everyone at risk.