Gun Control Debate #2

[Tawny]

Columbine had two armed officers and fired several shots and missed their targets. IMO

Exactly!

Another liability! Missing your target with panicked kids screaming and running around? Jesus on a pogo stick let's be REASONABLE y'all

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

So I’m pretty sure that you’re saying that gun ownership should be made into a **privilege** than a right.

And I think that may be the trend .....

Well, arguing legal semantics, there may be more instances in which people end up forfeiting their rights due to not meeting specific safety regulations or due to their behaviors or mental incompetency. For example, legally, you forfeit your right to purchase a firearm if you're a convicted felon. It's not a perfect example by any stretch, I know.

The right to own and use guns isn't unrestricted and it isn't universal. That's what I'm getting at.

I'm not even disagreeing with you, LOL. I'm enjoying the discussion here and I'm thankful we're all part of it. <3

 

[rsd1200]

So I’m pretty sure that you’re saying that gun ownership should be made into a **privilege** than a right.

And I think that may be the trend .....

Well, it's our right to vote, but if we commit a felony, we have that right revoked. We also have the right to own firearms, removed, even if it wasn't even a violent crime/felony. We also have to check a little box that ensures that most no one will hire us...but that's another topic entirely.

We can still have the right to own firearms, but if we become mentally unsound, or commit violent acts, then yeah, we might have to give them up for awhile. I think that folks should be able to get their rights back, at some point, if they become stable again. People can get beyond some mental health issues, and can learn to control violent outbursts. It seems most of these school shooters though, are male, between the ages of 13-19. That is a tough time for kids anyway. I also think that educating schools about the Ten Lessons, and asking parents if they have firearms secured, is not a bad idea either.

 

[CARIIS]

It's been awhile since I've shot this one, and this is not the exact semi that I got him, just a similar one. Iirc, it holds six. One in the chamber and five ready (iirc). This is where that I think that some clarification on rifles and handguns and semis and bolt actions and automatics and chambers and magazines, needs to be fleshed out too. There is no one single fix. It has to be looked at from all sides. Should LE have Baker Acted the Palmdale kid? Should they have confiscated the firearms, in his home, and flagged him? I think so. I think they need to look, too, at where they could have done better, and make some changes. Honestly this kid should not have even had a pointy stick.

Off topic but certainly an entity in the tragedy that resulted in all this

There are so many misunderstandings about what the Baker Act is. This is FL

The max one can be kept on a Baker Act in FL is 72 hours. Period. Period.

When it is an adult the actual person must
make the statement themselves. Yes I am gonna kill myself. Yes I want to go kill
people in 1 hour . Unless they are utterly out of control. But after the call and arrival time the person might deescalate.

A lot of times they learn how it works -- so they know when face to face to intensely deny that they want to kill themselves or others .

Imminent is the FL buzzword word.


Longest for a child is shorter.

You have to go to a judge for more involved than 72 hours. That can take 96 hours !!

It has nothing to do with treatment. Nothing.

No treatment occurs .

It is confinement ( kinda like DUI) till the danger is supposedly over .

Most don't get to the 72 hour mark

There are no beds . The facility with Medicaid gets the most money for doing the admit paperwork. The discharge paperwork pays the facility next best. The facility moneywise does better to admit and throw out .

The psychiatrist will nail medicaid for a 9 minute chat - guess at prescription and hand it to them .


If private insurance is involved most of the time the most you get is 23 hours ( they dont want to pay for another day)

Most plans are like that .

http://www.cchrflorida.org/question...ida-involuntary-commitment-law-the-baker-act/

For the acute Medicaid most services have a limit. An acute pt can only be evaluated twice per year. For meds.

You have to remember for the providers the facilities take a cut of 60% usually of all billing

The community mental health folks are not paid burnt out - its a very stressful environment . Those that meet criteria to get taken are usually screaming biting kicking defecating vomiting think the couch is a murderer are half dressed etc etc

Getting accurate info is often difficult . They think they are Jesus they have no idea if when they were on meds (usually there is a 400 page chart so you can see from that !

I think it may be different in other states tho

This is fl

Here are the fee schedules . Note the caps -- what that means is the community mental health center is getting zero money from Medicaid

http://ahca.myflorida.com/medicaid/review/fee_schedules.shtml

 

[Tricia]

Please remember no discussion of Trump unless it absolutely without question directly related to the gun control debate.

I repeat; Trump had notes. We know that now. Notes have NOTHING to do with the actual gun control debate. Please let it go.

Thank you.

 

[KaaBoom]

From your link http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g-latest-updates-thursday-20180222-story.html

Peterson has been a school resource officer at Stoneman Douglas since 2009. He began working for the BCSO in 1985. His annual salary in 2016 was $75,673.72, according to Sheriff&#8217;s office records.

A seasoned armed guard, employed by BCSO since 2009 - yet he balked in the face of danger.

The NRA insists that the solution to combat school shooters is to station armed guards in schools.

I would say that their argument is weak, based upon the evidence of an armed guard at Stoneman Douglas High School who cowered in a corner while helpless children were being slaughtered.

And yet they are claiming that armed school teachers with limited training will be able to stop a school shooter, even when a trained LEO with 33 years of experience can't. There is just no logic in the argument.

 

[Tillicum]

Totally they make kids get there hands up al the time but there gonna let some strange teacher they dont know be running around
with a little gun -- they will get blown away by arriving trained people who want to do this kind of thing .

Its rife for more bloodshed and they will never be able to implement it




This is FL Average temp is 121!!! They wear blazers or something !!

Where are female teachers concealing there guns??

This is just a impulsive utterance that has no study behind it , it was an utterance.

Like had anyone ever heard of this notion before ? He spurt it out on fly

I heard of it before. It's been going on in my state for years. And guess what CARIIS, there have been NO problems.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I really don&#8217;t think we can rely upon school teachers to be able to be armed and effectively shoot to kill with the level of accuracy and composure of a Sniper. It would be illogical to expect that as a protocol but perhaps a few unique teachers could do it effectively.

During an active school shooting there is the element of surprise which is a disadvantage for the armed teachers while screaming children may be scrambling in and out of their line of Fire.

One armed guard, deputy, LE or officer has a better chance of being effective than a school teacher (IMO) in an active shooter event but being seriously under-armed and going after a crazy man with an AR-15 would likely have made himself victim #18......possibly a wounded or dead hero.

 

[Tawny]

I really don&#8217;t think we can rely upon school teachers to be able to be armed and effectively shoot to kill with the level of accuracy and composure of a Sniper. It would be illogical to expect that as a protocol but perhaps a few unique teachers could do it effectively.
During an active school shooting
the element of surprise which is a disadvantage for the armed teachers while screaming children may be scrambling in and out of their line of Fire.

One armed guard, deputy, LE or officer has a better chance of being effective than a school teacher (IMO) in an active shooter event but being seriously under-armed and going after a crazy man with an AR-15 would likely have made himself victim #18......possibly a wounded or dead hero.

Columbine had two armed officers attempting to neutralize the threat. They failed. Meanwhile, it puts any kid trying to run away in danger.

 

[Tawny]

I heard of it before. It's been going on in my state for years. And guess what CARIIS, there have been NO problems.

Yet...

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Columbine had two armed officers attempting to neutralize the threat. They failed. Meanwhile, it puts any kid trying to run away in danger.

Exactly my point

 

[rsd1200]

Off topic but certainly an entity in the tragedy that resulted in all this

There are so many misunderstandings about what the Baker Act is. This is FL

The max one can be kept on a Baker Act in FL is 72 hours. Period. Period.

When it is an adult the actual person must
make the statement themselves. Yes I am gonna kill myself. Yes I want to go kill
people in 1 hour . Unless they are utterly out of control. But after the call and arrival time the person might deescalate.

A lot of times they learn how it works -- so they know when face to face to intensely deny that they want to kill themselves or others .

Imminent is the FL buzzword word.


Longest for a child is shorter.

You have to go to a judge for more involved than 72 hours. That can take 96 hours !!

It has nothing to do with treatment. Nothing.

No treatment occurs .

It is confinement ( kinda like DUI) till the danger is supposedly over .

Most don't get to the 72 hour mark

There are no beds . The facility with Medicaid gets the most money for doing the admit paperwork. The discharge paperwork pays the facility next best. The facility moneywise does better to admit and throw out .

The psychiatrist will nail medicaid for a 9 minute chat - guess at prescription and hand it to them .


If private insurance is involved most of the time the most you get is 23 hours ( they dont want to pay for another day)

Most plans are like that .

http://www.cchrflorida.org/question...ida-involuntary-commitment-law-the-baker-act/

For the acute Medicaid most services have a limit. An acute pt can only be evaluated twice per year. For meds.

You have to remember for the providers the facilities take a cut of 60% usually of all billing

The community mental health folks are not paid burnt out - its a very stressful environment . Those that meet criteria to get taken are usually screaming biting kicking defecating vomiting think the couch is a murderer are half dressed etc etc

Getting accurate info is often difficult . They think they are Jesus they have no idea if when they were on meds (usually there is a 400 page chart so you can see from that !

I think it may be different in other states tho

This is fl

Here are the fee schedules . Note the caps -- what that means is the community mental health center is getting zero money from Medicaid

http://ahca.myflorida.com/medicaid/review/fee_schedules.shtml

I understand it's not an easy thing to do but the sheriff had said something about expanding upon that when they knew a situation could be volatile (at the town hall meeting). I don't really even know how comfortable I am with that myself though. Just thinking of missed opportunities and what might stop the next one. Even if they pull all semis off the shelves, some angry young man will see it as a challenge.

 

[bears10]

FWIW I don’t really agree with teachers being armed. I worry about the risk an unstable student could be if there’s a gun in the room.

That being said, I think this interview with an armed teacher is interesting. He’s trying to protect the kids since the district can’t afford security guards. He’s willing to put his life on the line to protect the students. Sorry if it’s been posted

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cb...ke-for-one-teacher-who-already-carries-a-gun/

 

[Tawny]

I don't see where he "cowered in a corner"? I do see where the sheriff acknowledged that he/a guard could have killed the shooter.

And I'm not sure why no school with armed guards is a viable option because one school's guard failed.

The New York Times reported Peterson "hid behind a concrete column leading to a stairwell,”...

http://komonews.com/news/nation-world/broward-sheriffs-office-holds-news-conference

 

[CARIIS]

AR15. I'm sorry, it was an AR15 that was used in Florida. Legally bought. Lethal to 17 people. And obviously something that someone in suburban Florida has to have to protect themselves. Own a gun, I'm not saying you shouldn't. But how can anyone say that owning this kind of weapon is justified? Are you guys in the States living in a war zone?

A motorbike is different. It's an obtuse argument. A vehicle is not designed solely to kill or maim. I'm a biker. The vast majority of bikers are killed or injured due to car drivers hitting them.

"The Gun Violence Archive, which defines a mass shooting as four or more people shot in one incident (not including the shooter), reported more than 14,000 people killed and over 29,000 injured in 2017 because of mass shootings. 14,000 people in 345 mass shootings in one year."

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/


​

yes yes yes we are

that is the problem !!

The second amendment was 200 years ago

when there was danger of British france whatever wanting to come over and take over

needed a gun to eat

or to protect from robber barons or whatever

look at the fantasy that it reduces crimes -- well look at our crime rates! That's a flop!

We do these mass shootings very very often one in vegas hit 800 people

go America !!

Before this admin no one was coming to unarm us

Obama was a constitutional lawyer from Harvard for gods sake !! - Obama had no desire to take everyone's guns away

 

[jillycat]

Columbine had two armed officers and fired several shots and missed their targets. IMO

I'm still not sure why all armed guard solutions are a lost cause based on two particular cases.

 

[Tawny]

I'm still not sure why all armed guard solutions are a lost cause based on two particular cases.

Ok.

Mandalay Bay was a casino. Countless armed security.
Pulse nightclub had armed security.
Columbine had armed security.
Parkland had armed security.
Fort Hood was a freaking military base.

 

[jillycat]

Exactly!

Another liability! Missing your target with panicked kids screaming and running around? Jesus on a pogo stick let's be REASONABLE y'all

So, what do we do? Build fortresses? Ban gun types? Assume that just because a school or community hires an armed guard, he or she is likely to cause more harm than good? A school shooting is the liability of all liabilities.


And in the case of Columbine, the guard didn't create a situation where panicked kids screamed and ran around. He and his back-up successfully evacuated students before SWAT even arrived.

 

[simba16]

NRA chief nut LaPierre must be calling the large majority that seeks smart gun control "socialists"?? Blames " corrupt" "politicized" FBI for problems. Who does that sound like? Meanwhile Trump calls for bonuses for "highly adept" armed teachers. What a joke.

 

[CARIIS]

I understand it's not an easy thing to do but the sheriff had said something about expanding upon that when they knew a situation could be volatile (at the town hall meeting). I don't really even know how comfortable I am with that myself though. Just thinking of missed opportunities and what might stop the next one. Even if they pull all semis off the shelves, some angry young man will see it as a challenge.

I don't know how a good idea I think that is either .

Cops are cops Clinicians are clinicians.

What I also think will happen there would be a lot of dumps at overwhelmed community centers

dump the person off at center cop paperwork load lot less than booking

if they do that no folks under the influence of alcohol - take em to jail dry out

totally off topic but vital !!

Lady love bug just had a reverse sneeze attack

Several years ago when Caris had one I took her and the vet tought me it is called a reverse sneeze is really fine and most of the time if you put your fingers on their noses for a couple of seconds it stops!!

They can be scary cause it sounds like your baby is choking to death.

Lady just having one made me thing of it !!

ruff ruff