Gun Control Debate #2

[Tawny]

So, what do we do? Build fortresses? Ban gun types? Assume that just because a school or community hires an armed guard, he or she is likely to cause more harm than good? A school shooting is the liability of all liabilities.


And in the case of Columbine, the guard didn't create a situation where panicked kids screamed and ran around. He and his back-up successfully evacuated students before SWAT even arrived.

There's something we can start working on immediately.

Meanwhile: more funding not for arming teachers but for counseling, psychologists, more teachers so there are smaller class sizes. Better resources to identify and connect with troubled kids exhibiting signs of anger and violence.

But yeah. Ban high capacity rapid fire weapons immediately. Make it so that only outlaws have them, so that the outlaws can be arrested and punished for owning them.

What will likely happen: Law abiding citizens will turn them in (let's hope for a buyback program). If they don't, and they hide them, great. Nobody ever has to know you have them.

These kids use these weapons because they're easy to obtain. Opportunity. They would do way less damage with a handgun or a bolt action rifle. These automatic and sem-automatic weapons are designed to kill as many humans as possible as fast as possible. Make it harder. Give people more time to get away. I mean that's like the least we can do?

 

[rsd1200]

I'm still not sure why all armed guard solutions are a lost cause based on two particular cases.

Maybe, if they were in plain clothes. Maybe. However, in schools, these kids know who the plain clothes guards are. Who do you think will get shot first?

Also, as an aside, re; teachers carrying, it won't be no time til someone figures out which teachers carry and it gets buzzed about the school. Unless a teacher trains and is comfortable with killing a student, the crazed student is going to win. The shooter(s) have planned this, they're prepared, and they don't really care if they die.

 

[simba16]

Well, arguing legal semantics, there may be more instances in which people end up forfeiting their rights due to not meeting specific safety regulations or due to their behaviors or mental incompetency. For example, legally, you forfeit your right to purchase a firearm if you're a convicted felon. It's not a perfect example by any stretch, I know.

The right to own and use guns isn't unrestricted and it isn't universal. That's what I'm getting at.

I'm not even disagreeing with you, LOL. I'm enjoying the discussion here and I'm thankful we're all part of it. <3

The courts have ruled: there is no constitutional right to weapons of war.

 

[Tawny]

Maybe, if they were in plain clothes. Maybe. However, in schools, these kids know who the plain clothes guards are. Who do you think will get shot first?

Also, as an aside, re; teachers carrying, it won't be no time til someone figures out which teachers carry and it gets buzzed about the school. Unless a teacher trains and is comfortable with killing a student, the crazed student is going to win. The shooter(s) have planned this, they're prepared, and they don't really care if they die.

This should be the biggest point made. What makes anyone think the threat of death will stop these kids from doing this? We are relying on a teacher (or in my local neighborhood, ****ing VOLUNTEERS) to have to neutralize the threat. It's like we're actively telling a teacher "you will have to shoot a child," because the fact of the matter is, "knowing teachers are armed" will NOT be a preventative measure. It will only be the thing that (hopefully) stops a shooter once he's already begun the massacre.

 

[sorrell skye]

I don't see where he "cowered in a corner"? I do see where the sheriff acknowledged that he/a guard could have killed the shooter.

And I'm not sure why no school with armed guards is a viable option because one school's guard failed.

The police officer assigned to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School resigned Thursday, under investigation for failing to enter the building as a gunman opened fire and killed 17 people.

Sheriff Scott Israel said Deputy Scot Peterson should have &#8220;went in. Addressed the killer. Killed the killer.&#8221;http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g-latest-updates-thursday-20180222-story.html

The NRA is advocating for armed guards in schools as a surefire means (no pun intended) to keep students safe from gunmen - meanwhile this incident, as well as the Columbine school shooting (mentioned in a post upthread) suggests otherwise.

"Cowering in a corner" is a figure of speech, perhaps ill-used until more facts of the investigation are released. Nevertheless, the fact remains that an experienced, armed guard was on campus at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, and he utterly failed (for whatever reason) to protect the helpless students. According to Sheriff Israel "Deputy Scot Peterson should have went in.."

The NRA's claim that 'armed guards positioned at our schools will protect our kids from being slaughtered by gunmen' is, thus far, completely without foundation. We have witnessed how armed guards have not protected our children from being slaughtered.

The NRA's proposed plan has already proven to be a failure.

It's time for another plan that is NOT endorsed by the NRA.

BTW - I'm a bigtime proponent of the 2nd Amendment.

Having said that, I will also state that I support reform measures.

It's beyond high time that we all engage in an intelligent discussion regarding such.

 

[CARIIS]

Ok.

Mandalay Bay was a casino. Countless armed security.
Pulse nightclub had armed security.
Columbine had armed security.
Parkland had armed security.
Fort Hood was a freaking military base.

Hi My Tawny!!!

you just stop this !!!!!

Ft Lauderdale airport has its own system tsa running around

Dallas cop shooter had 4, 256 cops all over the place

PUlse had 2,145 cops and swat all over the place

Paris had cops all over the place

London subways have thier own police depts in them

and Mrs Blumberg, who teaches cooking ,age 53, a bit obese , a dash blind, wears glasses is wearing flat shoes and she is gonna become Ma Baker and save the day

Man there has been stupid stuff lately but I think this may top the long list

were safe darling he will forget this idea soon

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I’m copying over my post from the first thread.
________________

Here’s what we, as Americans, agree on. The vast majority of Americans are NOT for banning all guns.

97 percent (given the margin of error, that’s pretty much everyone in America) is for universal background checks, for example.

Research poll:

U.S. Support For Gun Control Tops 2-1, Highest Ever, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds

“Support for universal background checks is itself almost universal, 97 percent, including 97 percent among gun owners. Support for gun control on other questions is at its highest level since the Quinnipiac University Poll began focusing on this issue in the wake of the Sandy Hook massacre:

* 67 percent for a nationwide ban on the sale of assault weapons;

* 83 percent for a mandatory waiting period for all gun purchases.

* It is too easy to buy a gun in the U.S. today, American voters say 67 percent.

* If more people carried guns, the U.S. would be less safe, voters say 59 percent.

* Congress needs to do more to reduce gun violence, voters say 75 percent.

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2521

 

[bears10]

There's something we can start working on immediately.

Meanwhile: more funding not for arming teachers but for counseling, psychologists, more teachers so there are smaller class sizes. Better resources to identify and connect with troubled kids exhibiting signs of anger and violence.

But yeah. Ban high capacity rapid fire weapons immediately. Make it so that only outlaws have them, so that the outlaws can be arrested and punished for owning them.

What will likely happen: Law abiding citizens will turn them in (let's hope for a buyback program). If they don't, and they hide them, great. Nobody ever has to know you have them.

These kids use these weapons because they're easy to obtain. Opportunity. They would do way less damage with a handgun or a bolt action rifle. These automatic and sem-automatic weapons are designed to kill as many humans as possible as fast as possible. Make it harder. Give people more time to get away. I mean that's like the least we can do?

My boss has many guns, likely ones you’ve described, and is a law abiding citizen. Conspiracy theorist, yes I’d say so. He would never, ever turn in his guns. So I disagree that any law abiding citizen would turn them in. And it’s not bc they intend to commit mass murder.

 

[jillycat]

Ok.

Mandalay Bay was a casino. Countless armed security.
Pulse nightclub had armed security.
Columbine had armed security.
Parkland had armed security.
Fort Hood was a freaking military base.

Exactly, Fort Hood was a freaking military base where the only soldier that was armed was the killer. What happens when victims can only throw chairs and tables and chase? Casualties.

As for Parkland, I think we all know that the sheriff suggested that his view of video and even the remarks of the guard indicate that he could have killed the shooter but did not even engage him. That's a problem with that guard, not a reason to conclude that we don't need to guard schools.

In the Vegas shooting, how again did the shooter get his arsenal into that hotel? Should one guard have been the single resource for covering a large hotel from a threat?

In the Pulse shooting, the guard exchanged fire with the shooter who continued farther into the venue. How did he get in the venue with weapons in the first place?

A single guard is not the answer. No guards, based on cases where a single guard was the only line of defense once the shooting started, is not the answer.

There is no one answer to this.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Deleted

 

[bears10]

Exactly, Fort Hood was a freaking military base where the only soldier that was armed was the killer. What happens when victims can only throw chairs and tables and chase? Casualties.

As for Parkland, I think we all know that the sheriff suggested that his view of video and even the remarks of the guard indicate that he could have killed the shooter but did not even engage him. That's a problem with that guard, not a reason to conclude that we don't need to guard schools.

In the Vegas shooting, how again did the shooter get his arsenal into that hotel? Should one guard have been the single resource for covering a large hotel from a threat?

In the Pulse shooting, the guard exchanged fire with the shooter who continued farther into the venue. How did he get in the venue with weapons in the first place?

A single guard is not the answer. No guards, based on cases where a single guard was the only line of defense once the shooting started, is not the answer.

There is no one answer to this.

You are going to be met with - the answer is stricter laws. Which I do agree with. But it doesn’t solve anything for existing ownership. Yes, let’s PLEASE restrict people from purchasing guns if they have history of mental instability. But what about the people who either intentionally avoid mental health treatment, or purchases their guns before being evaluated?

 

[jillycat]

The police officer assigned to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School resigned Thursday, under investigation for failing to enter the building as a gunman opened fire and killed 17 people.

Sheriff Scott Israel said Deputy Scot Peterson should have &#8220;went in. Addressed the killer. Killed the killer.&#8221;http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g-latest-updates-thursday-20180222-story.html

The NRA is advocating for armed guards in schools as a surefire means (no pun intended) to keep students safe from gunmen - meanwhile this incident, as well as the Columbine school shooting (mentioned in a post upthread) suggests otherwise.

"Cowering in a corner" is a figure of speech, perhaps ill-used until more facts of the investigation are released. Nevertheless, the fact remains that an experienced, armed guard was on campus at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, and he utterly failed (for whatever reason) to protect the helpless students. According to Sheriff Israel "Deputy Scot Peterson should have went in.."

The NRA's claim that 'armed guards positioned at our schools will protect our kids from being slaughtered by gunmen' is, thus far, completely without foundation. We have witnessed how armed guards have not protected our children from being slaughtered.

The NRA's proposed plan has already proven to be a failure.

It's time for another plan that is NOT endorsed by the NRA.

BTW - I'm a bigtime proponent of the 2nd Amendment.

Having said that, I will also state that I support reform measures.

It's beyond high time that we all engage in an intelligent discussion regarding such.

Yes, and guards are part of that discussion. Part not all. And the NRA is not who gets to decide what schools do for to secure their environments.

The schools can wait for bans of gun parts and platforms and for more mental health clinics, and refuse to hire guards because mass shootings where a guard was present (after the person was in the building armed and ambushing) but it won't save anyone. Nor will one guard. Nor will one metal detector. Or playing with bump stock paperwork in Congress. It just won't.

 

[Tawny]

My boss has many guns, likely ones you&#8217;ve described, and is a law abiding citizen. Conspiracy theorist, yes I&#8217;d say so. He would never, ever turn in his guns. So I disagree that any law abiding citizen would turn them in. And it&#8217;s not bc they intend to commit mass murder.

I mean, did you stop reading at that part or did you see the next sentence?

 

[bears10]

I mean, did you stop reading at that part or did you see the next sentence?

“I mean” I responded to your comment about what law abiding citizens will do.

ETA - my boss won’t hide nothing. He firmly believes it’s his right. So yes, tawny, I did read your next sentence. I just don’t think it was relevant to reply to bc it didn’t apply to my comment.

 

[Tawny]

&#8220;I mean&#8221; I responded to your comment about what law abiding citizens will do.

ETA - my boss won&#8217;t hide nothing. He firmly believes it&#8217;s his right. So yes, tawny, I did read your next sentence. I just don&#8217;t think it was relevant to reply to bc it didn&#8217;t apply to my comment.

Ok well if he doesn't hide it and everyone knows he still owns it after it becomes illegal, he then becomes a NOT-law-abiding citizen lol

self-edit because I'm an adult.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

rsbm for focus

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/cnn-town-hall-full-video-transcript/index.html

It's clear here, that the audience was yelling and shouting Dana down. That's not noted in the transcript. There were people in the audience clearly calling her a murderer. Bias reporting in my opinion.

The crosstalk is not transcribed, and is labeled “crosstalk.” That’s why the full video (in the link) is included.

Crosstalk, as a general rule, isn’t transcribed. No conspiracy, imo. No ill intent, imo. No bias, imo.

It’s a transcript, not biased reporting.

Welp, now that’s been cleared up.

Thanks for adding more detail.

 

[CARIIS]

MSNBC

huge bank just yanked its huge credit card program with NRA !!!!

Now were rocking --money talks

oh brother here is what they do

they are forming a committee to study this

wth is there to study

this dialog has been going on for decades

this is a stall to see what influence it will have on elections soon

that s it

the committee willl report to the committee that will create a committee to review the committees reccondations which will find a committee to review the committees review of the comminmttee

we will all be deceased before any dam# committee does anything

first step

simple and free

no backpacks allowed in any school in the nation

got nothing to lose

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

MSNBC

huge bank just yanked its huge credit card program with NRA !!!!

Now were rocking --money talks

[emoji119][emoji123]

 

[bears10]

Ok well if he doesn't hide it and everyone knows he still owns it after it becomes illegal, he then becomes a NOT-law-abiding citizen lol

But, I mean, mocking people is super cool in an adult debate.

If it becomes illegal, then the govt can come knock on his door. I don’t see them doing that. JMO. And FYI I’m not mocking anyone.

 

[rsd1200]

I’m copying over my post from the first thread.
________________

Here’s what we, as Americans, agree on. The vast majority of Americans are NOT for banning all guns.

97 percent (given the margin of error, that’s pretty much everyone in America) is for universal background checks, for example.

Research poll:

U.S. Support For Gun Control Tops 2-1, Highest Ever, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds

“Support for universal background checks is itself almost universal, 97 percent, including 97 percent among gun owners. Support for gun control on other questions is at its highest level since the Quinnipiac University Poll began focusing on this issue in the wake of the Sandy Hook massacre:

* 67 percent for a nationwide ban on the sale of assault weapons;

* 83 percent for a mandatory waiting period for all gun purchases.

* It is too easy to buy a gun in the U.S. today, American voters say 67 percent.

* If more people carried guns, the U.S. would be less safe, voters say 59 percent.

* Congress needs to do more to reduce gun violence, voters say 75 percent.

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2521

I keep thinking that at least 90% or more of the school shooters were able to obtain firearms from a family member's home. Would a PSA about locking up your firearms be worthwhile? Maybe show trigger locks, and/or different safe types? I really think that it needs to start at home. If folks don't keep their firearms away from their kids, we are not going to stop seeing dead children. Toddlers are shooting their mothers, dead, while they are driving down the highway, or shopping in Walmart because of easy access to their purses. Siblings are shooting siblings because they find a firearm in the home. Teens are taking parents firearms to school, or the ones parents bought for them, and killing other children. I think we're leaving out a big piece of the puzzle.