Gun Control Debate #2

[arizona sunshine]

http://www.businessinsider.com/florida-shooting-does-mental-illness-lead-to-violence-2018-2

No point in gun control until we handle domestic violence (not to confused by mental health issues) imo


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[EuTuCroquet?]

After initial silence, Lockton discontinues brokering NRA-branded insurance

http://www.kansascity.com/news/business/article202299304.html

“The policies, ranging from $250,000 to $1.5 million in coverage, were marketed as financial protection for policyholders involved in self-defense shootings.”

 

[CARIIS]

Okay, but why are you looking at the 7.62x39 cartridge? The cartridge that was used in the Florida shooting was the 223 Remington. Big difference, 30 caliber versus 22 caliber. Not that it really matters. I wouldn’t want to be shot by either one. But the “tumbling bullet” theory is more of a myth than anything to apparently try to make certain guns scarier than they already are.

Todays description was really gross like intense.

I had to stop hearing anything about Sany
Hook after a first responder described what he saw when he went into the classroom

 

[human]

Okay, but why are you looking at the 7.62x39 cartridge? The cartridge that was used in the Florida shooting was the 223 Remington. Big difference, 30 caliber versus 22 caliber. Not that it really matters. I wouldn’t want to be shot with either one. But the “tumbling bullet” theory is more of a myth than anything to apparently try to make certain guns scarier than they already are.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...land-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the mass-shooting victims from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, and was bleeding extensively. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?


The reaction in the emergency room was the same. One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semiautomatic rifle that delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim. Nothing was left to repair—and utterly, devastatingly, nothing could be done to fix the problem. The injury was fatal.

 

[arizona sunshine]

I am brit, lived in canada for 5 years before moving to usa 4 years ago.

I love living in the US, love the people in AZ and TX - the 2 states i have lived in so far.

I felt more vulnerable living in UK than US. The UK has a different kind of violence/aggression. It is a simmering type, the potential for street violence, especially on a night out, in the UK is not something i have experienced to the same degree since i left 9 years ago


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[EuTuCroquet?]

Did the NRA Support a 1967 'Open Carry' Ban in California?

https://www.snopes.com/nra-california-open-carry-ban/

“t’s true that the Mulford Act, which prohibited anyone outside of law enforcement officers (and others explicitly authorized to do so) from carrying loaded firearms in public, was enacted largely in response to the militant activities of the Black Panther Party.

“It’s also true that the bill was written by a Republican legislator, California Assemblyman Don Mulford of Oakland, and was passed with the full backing of Republican governor Ronald Reagan and the National Rifle Association.

“The bill was introduced in April 1967, six weeks after it had been reported that an armed group of Black Panthers acting as an escort for Malcolm X’s widow, Betty Shabazz, were involved in tense, nonviolent confrontations with airport security officers and police in San Francisco.”

(snip)

“Local cops were dumbfounded to discover that there was no law which prohibited the Panthers from carrying loaded weapons so long as they were unconcealed, a legal fact which the Panthers had carefully researched.”

(snip)

“The National Rifle Association would later (during the 1970s) harden their stance against any limitations to the right to bear arms, but in 1967, when the Black Panthers emerged as the most militant defenders of that right, the NRA took a very different position.”

 

[human]

No, no they wouldn't. Nobody from the Westernised world wants your gun culture or stupidly high number of shooting sprees, thanks. Nobody from the UK, Canada, Australia or New Zealand envies your right to bear arms, we feel genuinely sorry for the millions of decent Americans caught in this horrible situation and watch sadly from afar, wondering when you will wake up and smell the coffee.

Exactly. And I live in a Third World country that is a colony without guns and the people here think Americans are stupid. Fortunately it is a small place and people know how we feel so they freely discuss their amazement about the US.

 

[CARIIS]

Here's an article on the history of the NRA.

https://www.npr.org/2017/10/10/556578593/the-nra-wasnt-always-against-gun-restrictions

"The modern-day NRA has a well-established response formula after mass shootings...First ... the organization remains silent for a period of days, offering only a message of sympathy for the victims and a request that the tragedy 'not be politicized.' Then ... the organization begins to engage, usually through a few officers and spokespersons who have been through this multiple times..."

MSNBC

NRA spent more money on Trump than on any one in its history this round - he wont do anything that means anything

he redid a old Exec memo from Dec that
said that someone ought to think about bump stocks and today is carrying on like he did something

That NRA lady was like Jekyl and Hide. I saw her on the town hall and the next day looked her up on YT -- a total manipulative phoney on the town hall.

It was incredible I posted her -- really nasty but hey that is what they pay spokespeople to do

 

[bobcat]

Exactly. And I live in a Third World country that is a colony without guns and the people here think Americans are stupid. Fortunately it is a small place and people know how we feel so they freely discuss their amazement about the US.

Good. I hope they think we’re so stupid that they have no desire to ever move here. That’s the last thing we need is more people here who will vote against our right to bear arms.

 

[human]

http://www.businessinsider.com/florida-shooting-does-mental-illness-lead-to-violence-2018-2

No point in gun control until we handle domestic violence (not to confused by mental health issues) imo


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There can be multi tasking since so many have seen or been perps of domestic violence.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Okay, but why are you looking at the 7.62x39 cartridge? The cartridge that was used in the Florida shooting was the 223 Remington. Big difference, 30 caliber versus 22 caliber. Not that it really matters. I wouldn’t want to be shot with either one. But the “tumbling bullet” theory is more of a myth than anything to apparently try to make certain guns scarier than they already are.

I agree. You’re right; it doesn’t really matter, imo.

Now, let’s compare semiautomatic pistols like the Glock to semiautomatic rifles like the AR15.

High-powered ammo shot from a semiautomatic rifle destroys internal organs and causes tremendous bodily damage. More so than most handguns.

Police think the Vegas shooter used .223 (5.56mm) to .308 caliber. The Orlando shooter is believed to have used .233.

The standard AR15 bullet velocity is around 3,200 feet per second. Effective firing range is 1,300 feet (500 yards). Modded, several hundred rounds a minute. Unmodified, around 50. Iirc.

For comparison, a Glock 17 semiautomatic pistol is 9mm, effective firing range of about 160 feet at 1,200 feet per second, iirc. “Safe Action” trigger design means it only shoots as semiautomatic.

 

[RANCH]

https://www.thetrace.org/2017/06/physics-deadly-bullets-assault-rifles/

The bullet that struck U.S. Representative Steve Scalise last week was travelling at somewhere between 1,100 and 2,600 feet per second. The projectile, a 7.62 x 39 bullet, hit the House majority whip with between 370 and 1,550 foot-pounds of force. The rifle round, which is longer than a pistol projectile, likely also began tumbling after its point collided with his hip. That meant that the tip didn’t just bore straight through him, but rather that the whole length of the projectile rotated over and over through Scalise’s body, ripping a wider hole and distributing a bigger shock wave throughout his bones and tissue.

7.62x39 is the metric dimensions of the entire cartridge and not the projectile or what's commonly called a bullet.

I wonder what else is wrong in this article?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62×39mm

 

[human]

Good. I hope they think we’re so stupid here that they have no desire to ever move here. That’s the last thing we need is more people here who will vote against our gun rights.

I don’t think I have met anyone who wants to move to the US. Rather people who come here wish they could live here. Because of incredibly high unemployment, there are no jobs here so it is impossible to,live here unless you have your own income. And oddly enough, they do not even necessarily grant visas to the very rich. I know of a very rich man who was denied a visa. Who knows why, though. He may have a criminal history for all I know.

 

[bobcat]

You’re right. Semantics.

High-powered ammo shot from a semiautomatic rifle destroys internal organs and causes tremendous bodily damage.

Of course it does. That’s what guns do. I do have to also disagree with the term “high powered” when it’s used in reference to guns that use the 223 Remington cartridge. It’s just about the smallest rifle cartridge ever made, so to me, it’s not a so called “high power” cartridge. In fact, the 223 caliber is not even legal to hunt deer in my state, as it’s not considered to be big enough to kill deer effectively.

 

[CARIIS]

Good. I hope they think we’re so stupid that they have no desire to ever move here. That’s the last thing we need is more people here who will vote against our right to bear arms.

That wont matter tho -- the kids across the land are over it . It will take some time ( hopefully Nov) but we will have to see.

But this kids have inspired a bunch of new bright kids that are tired of getting shot at every couple of days --

I would think the next one will add more to the list and the location of the next one might take it to more rural locations

Parkland was an affluent and highly educated community .

Well see if the movement grows or changes after the next one-- were overdue right now it has been averaging like 3 a week I think

 

[human]

I am brit, lived in canada for 5 years before moving to usa 4 years ago.

I love living in the US, love the people in AZ and TX - the 2 states i have lived in so far.

I felt more vulnerable living in UK than US. The UK has a different kind of violence/aggression. It is a simmering type, the potential for street violence, especially on a night out, in the UK is not something i have experienced to the same degree since i left 9 years ago


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Where I live, domestic violence is starting to be addressed. There is a lot of it. But there are no guns so no mass killings here.

When I went to a conference on domestic violence in Minnesota a few years ago, there were people from all over the world in attendance,

I was involved with a group from Australia and England. They were social workers. They said that the victims of DV did not usually die because of lack of the ability to get a gun.

Do you feel this to be accurate?

 

[CARIIS]

Of course it does. That’s what guns do. I do have to also disagree with the term “high powered” when it’s used in reference to guns that use the 223 Remington cartridge. It’s just about the smallest rifle cartridge ever made, so to me, it’s not a so called “high power” cartridge. In fact, the 223 caliber is not even legal to hunt deer in my state, as it’s not considered to be big enough to kill deer effectively.

teens are different than deer tho

 

[human]

Of course it does. That’s what guns do. I do have to also disagree with the term “high powered” when it’s used in reference to guns that use the 223 Remington cartridge. It’s just about the smallest rifle cartridge ever made, so to me, it’s not a so called “high power” cartridge. In fact, the 223 caliber is not even legal to hunt deer in my state, as it’s not considered to be big enough to kill deer effectively.

I believe it is not legal in MN either.My hubby used to shoot at them all of the time because they ate my gardens. My son in law said it was a stupid idea as they came back at night while we were asleep. It never even scared them or my gardens were so delicious they could not stay away.

My son bought my husband something that could turn his rifle into an automatic. My husband could never figure out why my son did it as my son is rabidly anti gun except for target shooting.

My son is an engineer so maybe he thought it would be interesting to see how easily it could be done. I think it took,under an hour.

 

[RANCH]

Where I live, domestic violence is starting to be addressed. There is a lot of it. But there are no guns so no mass killings here.

When I went to a conference on domestic violence in Minnesota a few years ago, there were people from all over the world in attendance,

I was involved with a group from Australia and England. They were social workers. They said that the victims of DV did not usually die because of lack of the ability to get a gun.

Do you feel this to be accurate?

Maybe were you live people are killed or severely injured with weapons other than guns. Weapons like knives or blunt instruments can kill or injure innocent people also.

What are the statistics for types of weapons used in domestic violence were you live? A link would be nice.

 

[arizona sunshine]

Where I live, domestic violence is starting to be addressed. There is a lot of it. But there are no guns so no mass killings here.

When I went to a conference on domestic violence in Minnesota a few years ago, there were people from all over the world in attendance,

I was involved with a group from Australia and England. They were social workers. They said that the victims of DV did not usually die because of lack of the ability to get a gun.

Do you feel this to be accurate?

The primary victim of DV may be less likely to die, due to lack of access to a gun. But....

DV has far reaching, deep rooted effects that can straddle generations down the line, not to be minimized by how many did/didn’t die by gunshot. For example, Stabbings happen every day in the UK, many fatal, caused by people desensitized/damaged/lawless because exposure to DV. Imo.

In my experience, i experienced much more general violence in the UK compared to US.

However, my point is, gun control - some kind of change in regulation - will only have a chance to make difference if DV is also handled differently.





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