Gun Control Debate #2

[KaaBoom]

Of course. But I am not going to continue further bc I am getting a bad vibe. It IS a lot to unpack. People who don’t live in my country criticizing us, is not something I am okay with. I don’t actively pursue threads or forums other country’s issues, because I know there’s way more to the issue than I can understand as an outsider.

From what I have read, most non-Americans have a sincere concern for the US and don't want to see the country continue to be ripped apart by gun violence. It does affect other countries too. This type of continued violence and lawlessness in a major world superpower could have a ripple effect and lead to worldwide instability. So it is their business too. Also Americans have a long tradition of criticising and interfering with the affairs of other countries. So I think Americans should expect the same.

 

[KaaBoom]

I think I need to clear up a misconception that some seem to have- the NRA is NOT a gun manufacturer. It stands for National Rifle Association and their only purpose is to protect our 2nd Amendment rights. Google it if you don’t believe me.

That is your misconception. The NRA is backed by the gun industry. The NRA could care less about the Second Amendment. They care about one thing and one thing only. Protecting the profits of the gun industry.

In its early days, the National Rifle Association was a grassroots social club that prided itself on independence from corporate influence.

While that is still part of the organization's core function, today less than half of the NRA's revenues come from program fees and membership dues.

The bulk of the group's money now comes in the form of contributions, grants, royalty income, and advertising, much of it originating from gun industry sources.

This Is How The Gun Industry Funds The NRA - Business Insider

 

[KaaBoom]

I am brit, lived in canada for 5 years before moving to usa 4 years ago.

I love living in the US, love the people in AZ and TX - the 2 states i have lived in so far.

I felt more vulnerable living in UK than US. The UK has a different kind of violence/aggression. It is a simmering type, the potential for street violence, especially on a night out, in the UK is not something i have experienced to the same degree since i left 9 years ago

That depends are where you go. There is plenty of street violence in most major US cities. Just hang around any area with a lot of bars around bar closing time and you will see street violence. You can also see street violence in many US cities after sporting events.

I used to see street violence all the time when I lived in the city. Now I live in a small town and don't see much of it.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

From what I have read, most non-Americans have a sincere concern for the US and don't want to see the country continue to be ripped apart by gun violence. It does affect other countries too. This type of continued violence and lawlessness in a major world superpower could have a ripple effect and lead to worldwide instability. So it is their business too. Also Americans have a long tradition of criticising and interfering with the affairs of other countries. So I think Americans should expect the same.

^^this^^

I'm terribly afraid my posts sound like I'm giving lessons and acting all smug.

It's just that when I see the incidents with guns in various European countries, and then in the US, the difference is that when the citizens do not have access to war weapons, they can't use them. Hundreds of persons do not die useless death and thousands of persons are not crippled and maimed and mutilated.

Another (selfish) point is that we tend to ape what the Americans do. Not a problem for rap singers or sitcoms but mass shootings are worrying indeed.

 

[arizona sunshine]

That depends are where you go. There is plenty of street violence in most major US cities. Just hang around any area with a lot of bars around bar closing time and you will see street violence. You can also see street violence in many US cities after sporting events.

I used to see street violence all the time when I lived in the city. Now I live in a small town and don't see much of it.

I totally agree.

The thing about the UK is it is much harder to avoid. Smaller place, less options to live in quieter area for working class people


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

The only people having that kind of weapons (mostly kalachnikovs from Eastern Europe I think but I might be wrong) are gangs and terrorists. The police and the DGSI tackle this with undercover agents and... they don't really communicate on how they do it actually. But they arrest people so it must work. No one I know thinks that the solution is to make that kind of weapons legal. The harder they are to get, the less there will be around and that's fine with everyone. We know that a terrorist attack is possible, but at least we do not have to worry that a bullied student or an angry worker or someone with a Taj Mahal-sized chip on his shoulder will grab an assault weapon and slaughter everyone around.

I like you guys, but I can't understand your weapon laws.

... or someone with a Ruby Ridge/Waco-sized chip on his shoulder will build the truck bomb of all truck bombs with his Army buddy, park it in front of a federal building, walk away while it detonates, kill 168/9 people, injure hundreds more, destroy several dozen buildings and earn eternal infamy.

Sorry, the Taj Mahal trope isn’t representative of most “chip-wielding” mass killers in America. Not. By. A. Long. Shot.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/

ETA: explaining that the Taj Mahal is a mausoleum, mosque and “crown jewel” of Muslim art.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_Mahal

 

[kittythehare]

From what I have read, most non-Americans have a sincere concern for the US and don't want to see the country continue to be ripped apart by gun violence. It does affect other countries too. This type of continued violence and lawlessness in a major world superpower could have a ripple effect and lead to worldwide instability. So it is their business too. Also Americans have a long tradition of criticising and interfering with the affairs of other countries. So I think Americans should expect the same.

The truth and thanks for saying it Kia.
I'm here because I care. i work here because I care.
and sure, we're not a homogeneous race.. we're all different.. but our stripped back humanity is the very same, our grief is the same.
From the outside looking in- it's frightening.. but it is a worldwide problem..
I remember 2014 almost accidentally falling into Gaza, being seared to my soul by all I witnessed on 4 livestreams running 24/7, trying to get Intl rEd cross to rescue people from basements in shusya.. no joy, no reply.. they all died.

at the same time, Ireland was threatening and did actually take medical cards, thats health insurance, from the old people, the UK was stripping people of disability benefits.. and I saw the parallels..and could recognise a universal pattern, like a return to nazi-Germany.. a frightening worldwide swing to the far right..

I have no sense of nationalism, I despise it in my own country and disrespect it in others.
So, I apologise if this offends some people, I do not intend to offend you, nor will I stay silent.
Because that would be dishonest.

The world is changing, it's getting worse, every country, every place.
The problem seems to be that we have developed a strong belief in our sense of disempowerment..
governments seek to enforce this agenda.. we're also in a minority.

So I don't call the protesting students immature or hysterical.. they're much younger than me, but the rawness of their screams spells the truth- humanity is dying..
We are, each of us, worldwide living within climates of fear to a greater or lesser extent.
Let us now stand together.. move forward together and make those changes happen, whatever it takes.
( I do actually love America, btw)

 

[RANCH]

OMG, where to start. First the only reason they were able to shoot him was because he came back a second time, and they were ready for him that time. The first time they were totally unprepared, and couldn't even get their guns. Both of them hit him with multiple shots, but none of them were fatal. The daughter shot at him while her mother was in the line of fire. Then the mother lost her gun to him. Just a lot of wild shooting by three people who have no skill. That video pretty much represents everything that is wrong with trying to defend yourself with a gun. It's very lucky that both of the women didn't die in that mess.

The only thing I agree with is that the women are lucky to be alive. I will not attack them for using firearms to stop a violent miscreant from killing them . Thanks to these brave women the crime spree this guy was on was stopped possibly saving the lives of others.

They should be admired and thanked for their actions not criticized. JMO

He added that police think the man she shot is responsible for a series of Tulsa and Tulsa County armed robberies with a sawed-off shotgun during the past few weeks.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crim...cle_32b7a800-6264-51a0-b1a6-6f30b855ad9e.html

 

[kittythehare]

The NRA for years has claimed credit for the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), a database established in 1998 to conduct background checks on gun buyers. We looked at this claim previously, and the evidence was thin.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...gun-background-checks/?utm_term=.9ae005ca8fbe

The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act requires federally licensed firearms dealers to run background checks on gun buyers. Almost all of these searches are completed within two minutes by the NICS, a database launched by the FBI as part of the Brady law.

But there are well-documented issues with the NICS database, because not all states report all their data on convictions and mental health adjudications. In other words, the NICS database does not include many people who are barred by law from possessing firearms.

 

[Spellbound]

Good. I hope they think we’re so stupid that they have no desire to ever move here. That’s the last thing we need is more people here who will vote against our right to bear arms.

This seems a bit unfair .... the majority here do seem to agree no ban on owning guns. I do believe the majority of citizens are calling to restrict the types we can own and make changes to how they are purchased and by whom. IMO we need to move past the stance of “ban all” . Though it would not bother me, I don’t see that ever happening.

The “right to bear arms” does not mean we can have everything and every kind.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

In the 1960s some young people where being drafted at 18, but they couldn't vote until 21. The irony of it didn't escape many.

Great point, KaaBoom. Many of them could drink at 18, too.

Which isn’t really relevant, but felt worth mentioning.

Those kids helped change the course of a war, imo. Proud of them. And I’m proud of the youth today taking a stand.

Like their friends being drafted to die in a winless war back then, they’re organizing to stop their friends being drafted to die in a winless war today, in my opinion.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

That is your misconception. The NRA is backed by the gun industry. The NRA could care less about the Second Amendment. They care about one thing and one thing only. Protecting the profits of the gun industry.

This Is How The Gun Industry Funds The NRA - Business Insider

Reminds me of Big Tobacco and Big Pharma, ya know?

 

[watergirl62]

I had to take a break and I have skipped many posts. When the emotional fervor outrage anger fear whatever runs high, I tend to go walkabout. It's just too much chaos and i need time to recharge.

I like this boycott NRA movement so want to bring this forward even if it is sooooo 4 days ago.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/23/588233273/one-by-one-companies-cut-ties-with-nra

The brands — ranging from insurance companies to airlines to rental car agencies — announced their decisions on social media, many apparently in direct response to tweets demanding change under the trending hashtag #boycottNRA

Looking for a bullet list, has anyone seen one? TIA.

 

[kittythehare]

I had to take a break and I have skipped many posts. When the emotional fervor outrage anger fear whatever runs high, I tend to go walkabout. It's just too much chaos and i need time to recharge.

I like this boycott NRA movement so want to bring this forward even if it is sooooo 4 days ago.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/23/588233273/one-by-one-companies-cut-ties-with-nra

The brands — ranging from insurance companies to airlines to rental car agencies — announced their decisions on social media, many apparently in direct response to tweets demanding change under the trending hashtag #boycottNRA

Looking for a bullet list, has anyone seen one? TIA.

I stuck a list up a day or 2 days or 3 days ago.............. sorry........ but there's loads on twitter, you'll find one easily.
The stakes are high, the emotions will run high..it's okay.. it's all good..

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

OMG, it’s like a scene out of Raising Arizona. It would be comical if it wasn’t real.

And I agree, they had every right to defend themselves, and they are lucky to be alive. Wowwwww. And they’re lucky no bystanders were shot or killed, too.

I’m not knocking those women or making fun of them. This scenario is closer to the norm than an aberration. So many things could have easily gone horribly, irreversibly sideways. IMO

OMG, where to start.

First the only reason they were able to shoot him was because he came back a second time, and they were ready for him that time.

The first time they were totally unprepared, and couldn't even get their guns.

Both of them hit him with multiple shots, but none of them were fatal.

The daughter shot at him while her mother was in the line of fire.

Then the mother lost her gun to him.

Just a lot of wild shooting by three people who have no skill.

That video pretty much represents everything that is wrong with trying to defend yourself with a gun.

It's very lucky that both of the women didn't die in that mess.

 

[CARIIS]

The NRA for years has claimed credit for the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), a database established in 1998 to conduct background checks on gun buyers. We looked at this claim previously, and the evidence was thin.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...gun-background-checks/?utm_term=.9ae005ca8fbe

The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act requires federally licensed firearms dealers to run background checks on gun buyers. Almost all of these searches are completed within two minutes by the NICS, a database launched by the FBI as part of the Brady law.

But there are well-documented issues with the NICS database, because not all states report all their data on convictions and mental health adjudications. In other words, the NICS database does not include many people who are barred by law from possessing firearms.

and linked earlier shortly after Trump go in
they deleted about half a million felons from the system and killed Obama link to SSD for mental health benefits

 

[RANCH]

OMG, it’s like a scene out of Raising Arizona. It would be comical if it wasn’t real.

And I agree, they had every right to defend themselves, and they are lucky to be alive. Wowwwww. And they’re lucky no bystanders were shot or killed, too.

I’m not knocking those women or making fun of them. This scenario is closer to the norm than an aberration. So many things could have easily gone horribly, irreversibly sideways. IMO

It could have gone terribly wrong at the very beginning. The armed robber could have pulled the trigger of his illegal sawed off shotgun and killed these women as soon as he walked in the door.

There's laws against sawed off shotguns. How did this guy get one if they are illegal?

It is illegal to possess a sawed-off shotgun (barrel less than 18 inches) or a sawed-off rifle (barrel less than 16 inches or total length less than 26 inches). Possessing a sawed-off weapon in a felony punishable by a maximum of 2 years in prison.

https://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma/2014/title-21/section-21-1289.18/

 

[kittythehare]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...47dd2df3829_story.html?utm_term=.369cda1b58a9

It is one of the dirty habits of our political discourse that so many people use thermonuclear rhetorical weapons as a first resort. It is not enough for defenders of gun rights to be wrong; they must be complicit in murder. It is not enough for gun-control advocates to be mistaken; they must be jack booted ****s laying the groundwork for tyranny.

This is a particular shame on the issue of gun violence. The maximal solutions — broad restrictions on gun ownership or fixing the mental-health system — are so difficult or unlikely that they have become obstacles to action.

But on guns, there is hope in focus. While overall gun violence in America has gone down dramatically in the past few decades, the use of guns in suicides (constituting about two-thirds of gun-related deaths) has spiked, and so have mass shootings. Gun use in domestic violence and gun use in gang-related activity present particular challenges.

We should be considering: special police task forces that actively identify and track prospective killers instead of passively responding to warnings. Higher age restrictions on gun access


This argument — summarized by David French as “the concept of an armed citizenry as a final, emergency bulwark against tyranny” — is perhaps understandable in a country born of revolutionary violence. But more than two centuries removed from the revolution, the concept seems, well, frightening.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

(...)
This argument — summarized by David French as “the concept of an armed citizenry as a final, emergency bulwark against tyranny” — is perhaps understandable in a country born of revolutionary violence. But more than two centuries removed from the revolution, the concept seems, well, frightening.

SBM

We regularly rise against real or perceived government tyranny (raising the age of retirement, increasing taxes, whatever). But demonstrations and strikes and blocking motorways and dropping a heap of manure in front of the Elysée (when the cattle breeders are angry) work very well. The government is not trying to kill us.

 

[watergirl62]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...47dd2df3829_story.html?utm_term=.369cda1b58a9

It is one of the dirty habits of our political discourse that so many people use thermonuclear rhetorical weapons as a first resort. It is not enough for defenders of gun rights to be wrong; they must be complicit in murder. It is not enough for gun-control advocates to be mistaken; they must be jack booted ****s laying the groundwork for tyranny.

This is a particular shame on the issue of gun violence. The maximal solutions — broad restrictions on gun ownership or fixing the mental-health system — are so difficult or unlikely that they have become obstacles to action.

But on guns, there is hope in focus. While overall gun violence in America has gone down dramatically in the past few decades, the use of guns in suicides (constituting about two-thirds of gun-related deaths) has spiked, and so have mass shootings. Gun use in domestic violence and gun use in gang-related activity present particular challenges.

We should be considering: special police task forces that actively identify and track prospective killers instead of passively responding to warnings. Higher age restrictions on gun access


This argument — summarized by David French as “the concept of an armed citizenry as a final, emergency bulwark against tyranny” — is perhaps understandable in a country born of revolutionary violence. But more than two centuries removed from the revolution, the concept seems, well, frightening.

I think we can add the word Nazis and Hitler after thermonulear. It's always downhill from there no matter what the topic of discussion might be.

Got jackboots?
(I put mine on before I came back in here)
[emoji18]