Gun Control Debate #3

[EuTuCroquet?]

I know it sounds funny considering where we are now,but has voting ever caused harm to anyone?
In other words voting is safe unlike some weapons on the market today.IMO

OT, but yes. Bad laws can put lives and rights in peril, including state initiatives passed by voters.

For starters, low-Information voters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_information_voter

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

We can't.

And who is going to study this? Imagine drills in which a suspect armed with a prop gun in a classroom and a teacher, armed with a prop gun, pretend to shoot each other in front of 30 hysterical schoolchildren. Or in the hallway filled with hysterical children. On the playground. In the cafeteria.

Although maybe the idea is just to give teachers guns and see what happens. Cross our fingers and hope for the best.

Give them guns AND thoughts and prayers! Problem solved!

/s

 

[Bernina]

I hate using this as a source, but............
http://www.gunsandammo.com/second-amendment/best-states-for-gun-owners-2017/

[FONT=&amp]1. Arizona[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]

It’s hard to improve upon Arizona’s gun laws but they seem to make an effort every year. In 2017, Governor Ducey signed legislation into law preventing local governments from enacting background check requirements for gun ownership. Arizona maxes-out in every category thanks to its permitless (and permitted) carry, very strong self-defense laws, hands-off NFA and Black Gun policies and an overall hassle-free landscape for gun owners. The Phoenix area likely has the most active competitive shooting cultures in the nation and there are countless places to shoot in the deserts if you’re the kind that likes to take long shots. The hunting opportunities are some of the best in the country, though tags can be a challenge to draw, so if you’re a sportsman as well as a gun owner you’re in luck. The gap between Arizona and other states in the top-10 has certainly narrowed in the past few years but we have no justification for taking the winning slot away from our reigning champion.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]

[/FONT]

That being said, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States , numbers indicate deaths and casualties, respectively (SCHOOL SHOOTINGS!):

February 12, 2016 Glendale, Arizona 2/0 Two 15-year-old girls died in an apparent Murder-Suicide at Independence High School.

October 9, 2015 Flagstaff, Arizona 1/3 One student died and three others were wounded in a shooting at Northern Arizona University. It is unclear what sparked the shooting, which took place near Mountain View Hall, a dormitory that houses most of the campus' students involved in Greek organizations. An 18-year-old student was arrested and charged with murder and aggravated assault.

January 31, 2013 Phoenix, Arizona 0/0 An argument between two rival gangs escalated to what police described as a "gun battle" at Cesar Chavez High School. Approximately fifteen shots were fired in the vicinity of people waiting to get into a scheduled boys' basketball game. No one was injured.

October 28, 2002 Tucson, Arizona 4/0 Failing nursing college student and Gulf War veteran, 40-year-old Robert Stewart Flores Jr., killed three assistant professors of nursing at the University of Arizona, 50-year-old Robin Rogers, 44-year-old Cheryl McGaffic, and 45-year-old Barbara Monroe, before turning the gun on himself.

Before 2002, there isn't any (just skimming so I might have made a mistake). None were non target mass shootings which one would assume would be the obvious with such lax gun laws in this State. The Flagstaff incident happened on the street and the suspect has claimed self defense, re-trial/conviction TBD.

So.........with Arizona basically being the easiest gun access State, why are we not seeing lots of school shootings, seeing the arguments on what gun laws are contributing factors in other States?

Don't get me wrong:
I'm a Native Arizonan.
I own guns. (and have a gun safe)
I carry. (S & W .367 mag revolver)
I support the 2nd amendment.
I do NOT support, nor am I a member of the NRA.
I DO believe the age of purchasing a weapon should be 21.
I DON'T believe mags should hold more than 6 bullets.
I can't justify ownership of semi automatics in the private sector, I don't think they're any better or efficient for hunting, or for personal/home protection. (and many people who own them don't have the knowledge or experience to use them for such)

JMO.

 

[bluesneakers]

July 2016:
Where does Arizona rank among America’s most violent states?

10. Arizona
> Violent-crime rate: 399.9 per 100,000 (16th highest)
> Murder and non-negligent manslaughter rate: 4.7 per 100,000 (20th highest)
> Median household income: $50,068 (21st lowest)
> June unemployment rate: 5.8 percent (Ninth highest)

Arizona is the 10th least peaceful state in the nation. In addition to an above-average violent crime rate, the incidences of property crime, larceny, and motor vehicle theft in Arizona are each among the 10 highest compared with other states. So far this year, data collection and research group Gun Violence Archive has tracked four mass shootings in the state in which a total of 12 people were killed. Just seven other states have had a higher number of deaths from mass shootings.

Death by gun: Top 20 states with highest rates

14. Arizona (tie with Idaho)
Death by firearm per 100,000 population: 14.1 (above the national average of 10 per 100k)

States with strict gun laws have fewer firearms deaths. Here's how your state stacks up

Arizona:
Firearms deaths per 100,000: 15.2
Number of firearms-related laws: 11

The relationship between gun laws and firearms deaths is compelling. In states like Alabama,. Alaska and Louisiana, where guns are lightly regulated, the rate of deaths by firearms (per 100,000 people) is more than four times higher than in New York, Connecticut, Hawaii or Massachusetts, which have some of the strictest gun laws in the country.

 

[Bernina]

July 2016:
Where does Arizona rank among America’s most violent states?

10. Arizona
> Violent-crime rate: 399.9 per 100,000 (16th highest)
> Murder and non-negligent manslaughter rate: 4.7 per 100,000 (20th highest)
> Median household income: $50,068 (21st lowest)
> June unemployment rate: 5.8 percent (Ninth highest)

Arizona is the 10th least peaceful state in the nation. In addition to an above-average violent crime rate, the incidences of property crime, larceny, and motor vehicle theft in Arizona are each among the 10 highest compared with other states. So far this year, data collection and research group Gun Violence Archive has tracked four mass shootings in the state in which a total of 12 people were killed. Just seven other states have had a higher number of deaths from mass shootings.

Death by gun: Top 20 states with highest rates

14. Arizona (tie with Idaho)
Death by firearm per 100,000 population: 14.1 (above the national average of 10 per 100k)

States with strict gun laws have fewer firearms deaths. Here's how your state stacks up

Arizona:
Firearms deaths per 100,000: 15.2
Number of firearms-related laws: 11

I was referring to "School Shootings".............

 

[bluesneakers]

I was referring to "School Shootings".............

And I was providing data on the state with regard to gun laws and crime rates, firearm deaths. Not trying to argue, just adding some helpful (I hope) information into the mix.

 

[Spellbound]

Parents were picking up their child/students in preparation for Spring Break. Two people were killed today, in the dorm area of central Michigan University. Their son, a 19 year old student, is presumed to be the shooter and is on the run still. The father is/was a police officer. I am going to presume (my opinion, not a known fact) that the father was a carry. Do police officers carry when off-duty?

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news...ooting-victims-identified-as-suspects-parents
MOUNT PLEASANT, Mich. - Two people shot and killed Friday morning at a Central Michigan University dorm have been identified as the parents of the suspected shooter.
Diva Davis, 47, and James Eric Davis Sr., 48, were found dead from apparent gunshot wounds inside Campbell Hall on the west side of Central Michigan's campus in Mount Pleasant. James Eric Davis, Sr. was a police officer in Bellwood, Ill., which is just west of Chicago.


ETA to add: I may have answered my own question, It seems police have the option to carry or not.
https://www.policeone.com/police-pr...uty-guns-and-Carry-Why-what-and-how-to-carry/

 

[KaaBoom]

Do you have a link that proves that actually happened?

The NRA just spent $1 million to get Neil Gorsuch confirmed to the Supreme Court. You don't think that the NRA hand picking Supreme Court Justices has anything to do with their rulings? The NRA doesn't spend money on anything unless it promotes their pro-gun agenda. That's why they stole this appointment from Obama, so they could be assured of more pro-gun court ruling for decades to come.

But even more alarming than the gun lobby’s chokehold on Congress — and covered far less frequently — is the NRA’s growing clout in shaping the federal judiciary under Trump.

The gun lobby said it spent $1 million to confirm Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch. Now the NRA has its sights set on the lower federal courts. McConnell is leading a huge push to fill the record-breaking number of federal court vacancies created by his obstruction of President Barack Obama’s nominees — and the gun lobby is reaping a windfall.

THINK_ Fresh Opinions, Sharp Analyses and Powerful Essays _ NBC News

 

[KaaBoom]

I wonder how serious they are. Do they think guns matter more than jobs to most of their constituents?

They don't care about their constituents. Politicians don't care about voters, they only care about the people who donate money to get them elected. It's a corrupt system, that voters have no control over. They will be happy to screw their constituents out of jobs, in order to show their support for their financial donors. That's why polls show that the majority of Americans want gun control, but we can't get it. There will be no gun control until gun control groups are as rich and powerful and donating as much money as the NRA. Which would be pretty hard.

 

[bobcat]

They don't care about their constituents. Politicians don't care about voters, they only care about the people who donate money to get them elected. It's a corrupt system, that voters have no control over. They will be happy to screw their constituents out of jobs, in order to show their support for their financial donors. That's why polls show that the majority of Americans want gun control, but we can't get it. There will be no gun control until gun control groups are as rich and powerful and donating as much money as the NRA. Which would be pretty hard.

I don't believe polls anymore. Not after the 2016 presidential election. The polls don't reflect reality. Americans don't want their guns taken away. Simple as that. They try to make it sound like the new laws they want won't affect us and they like to call it "common sense" laws and "gun safety" laws, when truly what they want is registration and confiscation. That's what the NRA is fighting against and that's why gun owners support the NRA.

 

[flourish]

I don't believe polls anymore. Not after the 2016 presidential election. The polls don't reflect reality. Americans don't want their guns taken away. Simple as that. They try to make it sound like the new laws they want won't affect us and they like to call it "common sense" laws and "gun safety" laws, when truly what they want is registration and confiscation. That's what the NRA is fighting against and that's why gun owners support the NRA.

So how do you know Americans don't want gun control and that gun owners support the NRA? Seeing as how you don't trust polls.

 

[flourish]

Please remember if you state a fact, especially a statistical fact, you will need to provide a link to a source that backs up what you are saying. If you don't do this your post will be removed

Bump

:Bump:

 

[KaaBoom]

With today's Central Michigan University shooting on campus that left the shooter's parents dead I just wanted to entertain the thought of what if there was an all out ban and confiscation on sight of all handguns. And just handguns.

I am not sure how realistic this could ever be but just wanted to entertain this thought for awhile to see how the US could even implement something like this. For countries that once did not have a ban on weapons and put in a ban afterwards then how did they enforce getting the existing weapons off the streets?

Here are some of the important questions that would need to be well thought out if there was a new US law enacted that would ban all handguns. Keeping it at handguns only to simplify any discussions on it.

Did they have a turn in program where they gave the person some $$$ for each handgun turned in?

Did they just have a turn in program that people had to turn in all their handguns before a certain date and anyone caught with a gun after that date would be arrested?

Did they have door to door searches of every home for weapons?

Do they confiscate weapons on the spot if they see them and arrest the person on the spot?

What is the charge and penalty if caught with a weapon?

Did Prison population go up astronomically after the law was enacted?
Or were there so few weapons to begin with that it wasnt a problem for that country?
The US would really need to consider this part very carefully so as not to overflow jail and prison population limits because many people currently own handguns.

What if a person did not know about the new law and happened to have his handgun in his vehicle? Would he be arrested and go to jail and prison because of the new law?

Is this realistic that something like this could really happen in the US or is this a pie in the sky?

What about State's laws differences compared to Federal laws?

There is already problems in some areas where states choose to not follow all Federal laws so wont this become a huge problem for the US if the Federal law enacts some sort of handgun ban law?

For example states dont always follow federal laws about immigration policies or marijuana. So what would happen if the Federal govt bans handguns but some states choose not to follow enforcement?

The laws would have to be written beforehand to where a penalty for owning a handgun would have to be established before the law to outlaw handguns became enacted. Then if someone is caught with a handgun after that date they could be charged with that crime and whatever sentence is imposed for the possession of a handgun.

It would be interesting to see a draft of a law like this and see what kinds of penalties would be established for just illegal possession of a handgun by anyone.

I believe the most successful solutions have been to buy the guns back, and then make them illegal on a certain date. Door to door searches would be overkill, and probably not effective.

 

[musicaljoke]

I believe the most successful solutions have been to buy the guns back, and then make them illegal on a certain date. Door to door searches would be overkill, and probably not effective.

Yeah, and stop producing the ammunition.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

My understanding of state vs federal law is that as long as there is no federal law in existence about an issue, state law is valid. But once there is a federal law about that same issue, federal law always supersedes state law. Is that not correct?

The Feds instituted Prohibition laws nationwide in 1920 outlawing the manufacture, importation, transportation and sale of alcoholic beverages in all forms. Imagine! No beer. No wine. No whiskey, gin, rum, or scotch. Commercial brewery and distillery businesses were closed. It lasted until 1933, a long time.

This was a time when one steel mill might employ 8,000 men, most of whom might want to down a beer or two at the end of a long hot shift. My late father remembered his German grandparents making homemade beer for his uncles.

Sometimes governments make laws that don't please all of their citizens. Maybe that's why the German grandparents left their country to come here?

 

[bobcat]

So how do you know Americans don't want gun control and that gun owners support the NRA? Seeing as how you don't trust polls.

Well, because I know a lot of people, and I think it's pretty obvious that people who own guns don't want them taken away. And that's really what gun control comes down to, as I said- registration and confiscation. Registration comes first, then the government knows who has guns, and confiscation is then possible. Just from reading the gun control threads on this forum it's apparent that many people would like to see guns gone entirely in the United States. All guns. I don't need a poll to tell me that the Americans who do own guns, are in favor of giving up their guns, the guns that they use for in their daily lives, and for recreation, and for protection. Yes, a huge percentage of people, mostly people who live in the cities, don't want people to have guns. Because THEY don't have them, or want them. So they think nobody else should either.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I don't believe polls anymore. Not after the 2016 presidential election. The polls don't reflect reality. Americans don't want their guns taken away. Simple as that. They try to make it sound like the new laws they want won't affect us and they like to call it "common sense" laws and "gun safety" laws, when truly what they want is registration and confiscation. That's what the NRA is fighting against and that's why gun owners support the NRA.

Thanks for sharing how you really feel, bobcat.

You’re right; stat/polls can be misused in any number of ways. Read correctly, however, they’re data.

My grandma had a saying, “When it starts to feel like it’s everyone else, it might be you.”

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Well, because I know a lot of people, and I think it's pretty obvious that people who own guns don't want them taken away. And that's really what gun control comes down to, as I said- registration and confiscation. Registration comes first, then the government knows who has guns, and confiscation is then possible. Just from reading the gun control threads on this forum it's apparent that many people would like to see guns gone entirely in the United States. All guns. I don't need a poll to tell me that the Americans who do own guns, are in favor of giving up their guns, the guns that they use for in their daily lives, and for recreation, and for protection. Yes, a huge percentage of people, mostly people who live in the cities, don't want people to have guns. Because THEY don't have them, or want them. So they think nobody else should either.

If I’m understanding your point, you don’t trust any motives behind gun reform measures. It’s a conspiracy to ban and/or confiscate all firearms, at least, eventually.

 

[bobcat]

If I’m understanding your point, you don’t trust any motives behind gun reform measures. It’s a conspiracy to ban and/or confiscate all firearms, at least, eventually.

Exactly. You got it. Now I keep expecting to hear some "common sense" and "reasonable" gun control proposals, as that's the buzz words I always hear mentioned, but when it comes down to the details it's anything but common sense and reasonable. As it turns out, many people don't see a need for guns at all, so their solution is to take ALL guns away from EVERYONE.

If you do have some reasonable ideas that would actually help, I'd love to hear them.

 

[rsd1200]

I hate using this as a source, but............
http://www.gunsandammo.com/second-amendment/best-states-for-gun-owners-2017/

That being said, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States , numbers indicate deaths and casualties, respectively (SCHOOL SHOOTINGS!):

February 12, 2016 Glendale, Arizona 2/0 Two 15-year-old girls died in an apparent Murder-Suicide at Independence High School.

October 9, 2015 Flagstaff, Arizona 1/3 One student died and three others were wounded in a shooting at Northern Arizona University. It is unclear what sparked the shooting, which took place near Mountain View Hall, a dormitory that houses most of the campus' students involved in Greek organizations. An 18-year-old student was arrested and charged with murder and aggravated assault.

January 31, 2013 Phoenix, Arizona 0/0 An argument between two rival gangs escalated to what police described as a "gun battle" at Cesar Chavez High School. Approximately fifteen shots were fired in the vicinity of people waiting to get into a scheduled boys' basketball game. No one was injured.

October 28, 2002 Tucson, Arizona 4/0 Failing nursing college student and Gulf War veteran, 40-year-old Robert Stewart Flores Jr., killed three assistant professors of nursing at the University of Arizona, 50-year-old Robin Rogers, 44-year-old Cheryl McGaffic, and 45-year-old Barbara Monroe, before turning the gun on himself.

Before 2002, there isn't any (just skimming so I might have made a mistake). None were non target mass shootings which one would assume would be the obvious with such lax gun laws in this State. The Flagstaff incident happened on the street and the suspect has claimed self defense, re-trial/conviction TBD.

So.........with Arizona basically being the easiest gun access State, why are we not seeing lots of school shootings, seeing the arguments on what gun laws are contributing factors in other States?

Don't get me wrong:
I'm a Native Arizonan.
I own guns. (and have a gun safe)
I carry. (S & W .367 mag revolver)
I support the 2nd amendment.
I do NOT support, nor am I a member of the NRA.
I DO believe the age of purchasing a weapon should be 21.
I DON'T believe mags should hold more than 6 bullets.
I can't justify ownership of semi automatics in the private sector, I don't think they're any better or efficient for hunting, or for personal/home protection. (and many people who own them don't have the knowledge or experience to use them for such)

JMO.

Using your link for my data, living in a pretty loose state myself (they call us Guntucky). We have had, unless I missed any;


1978
1 student, in the 70s a student was injured by a firearm going off while watching two students fight. (.32 pistol)


January 18, 1993
1 shooter killed a teacher, and custodian, and held a classroom hostage. (used a revolver and had additional ammo).

The Tragedy in Room 108
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/1993/10/31/the-tragedy-in-room-108




December 1, 1997
1 14 y/o shooter killed three students/wounded five others participating in a prayer group.

Carneal entered the school carrying a pistol, loaded clips, shot gun shells, and hundreds of .22 rounds, along with two shotguns and two rifles wrapped in a blanket. He told his sister the blanket was holding a school project.

He then approached and opened fire on a group of students praying. He killed three teenage girls and hurt five other classmates. Carneal then dropped the pistol and surrendered to the school’s principal.

After the shooting, he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, and had to be hospitalized several times due to psychosis.

http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/2017/11/28/20-years-later-michael-carneal/




2013
Three were killed ( two adults, one child), by 21 y.o. drive by shooter, at Hazard Community College while sitting in the parking lot - Police believe the shooting may have been the result of a domestic dispute. ( semi automatic pistol)


2014
A student shot another student due to a dispute. The student survived. The shooter was caught. Unsure of firearm but think it was a pistol.


And, most recently; Jan 23, 2018 (semi auto rifle)
A shooter enters Marshal County H.S and shoots 16, resulting in two deaths.


I am a Native Kentuckian
I own guns and keep them up. I usually carry when I'm travelling. (.38 Revolver)
I support the 2nd amendment.
I have never supported or been a member of the NRA
I am for raising the purchase age to 21 but with exceptions.
I have larger magazines but I'm okay with them cutting down the size, however, realistically, if folks want high capacity magazines, to do maiming and killing, they'll just rig their magazines together.
I won't go into a dark depression if they discontinue making semi rifles. However, again, keeping firearms out of the hands of folks who don't need to have so much as a b b gun, is where the problem lies.