Gun Control Debate #3

[kaen]

Inkeep reading that protocol has changed since Columbine. Officers have been trained to go toward the threat and not wait it out or negotiate with the gunman.

Florida police chief: 'Quit' if you won't run toward gunfire

https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida-police-chief-quit-if-you-wont-run-toward-gunfire

“If you are a police officer and you think to yourself for even one second that you will not be able to run towards the gunfire…please quit now. We won’t be mad. Innocent lives depend on us to act," wrote Atlantic Beach Police Chief Michelle Cook, adding #dontletthemdown.

She went on the explain that much has changed since the Columbine High School massacre in 1999. At the time, she said, the practice was for police to arrive at a school, surrounding the building and wait for SWAT to respond. Cook said officers can't do that anymore.

"The most recent best practices that are coming out of alerts are that if you are the officer there and innocent people are dying and your backup is way off, you have an obligation to go in," she said. "And you have an obligation to use the best tactics and the best training that you've been keeping up with to make an effort to eliminate the threat."

The training that is required to provide an officer with a mindset is rigorous, complete with constant refreshers. To go into a situation where you may kill innocents (in this case, teachers and children) that you know is something that needs the high and comprehensive level of training because hesitation can be the difference between the shooter being able to continue the slaughter with the officer neutralized or neutralizing the shooter. If an officer goes in alone and there are more than one shooters, the ability to act is even more important.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

In NYC, Peter Liang was found guilty in his shooting situation. I am not sure that the officer in this case would have been spared charges/dismissal and we won't know because he resigned (I assume it means he keeps his pension.) to avoid any possibility.

I’m not sure that this specific officer (SP) will be allowed to keep his pension once the investigation is over. I heard on the news that the FBI is reviewing the surveillance tapes and investigating now.

Based on their findings, it is possible that the parents/families of their deceased loved ones will initiate huge lawsuits on various agencies. We shall see....

 

[rosemadderlake]

Ohhhh, LE needs back up! Big time... Imo

In this regard I really agree with what this administration is saying regarding advertising a "gun free zone". Maybe that is a neon sign!

It's the saddest thing is no one in congress grew up this way. In my experience strangers were not the enemy...

I have a dog house on my property but no dog. My neighbor, the same. Of course there are other measures but it is the staging of security.

Some people are afraid of dogs.

 

[flourish]

Okay, fair enough, it seems current law enforcement and such are supposed to run into gunfire without any kind of knowledge and just hope they don't get shot. That's just reckless, imo. I'm not saying wait for very long--just take a moment to assess basics so they can actually help. But I won't belabour the point, as the world has just gone mad (feels like lol).

 

[margarita25]

(Peeking in to post some links you guys may find of interest, if not already posted.

Some of you may find this article of interest:

This active shooting training could be closest to real thing a civilian can experience
http://kdvr.com/2018/02/28/this-act...sest-to-real-thing-a-civilian-can-experience/

"A full-time police sergeant in a large metropolitan department, Graham Dunne, is teaching everyday people what he hopes will be life-saving skills."
*more at link

Walmart to raise minimum age to purchase a firearm
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/national/walmart-to-raise-minimum-age-to-purchase-a-firearm

"On the same day Dick's Sporting Goods announced it would no longer carry assault rifles, Walmart said on Wednesday that it is raising the minimum age to purchase a firearm from 18 to 21."
*more at link

********

UPS counters FedEx: We don't offer an NRA discount
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/national/ups-counters-fedex-we-dont-offer-an-nra-discount

)

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Ohhhh, LE needs back up! Big time... Imo

In this regard I really agree with what this administration is saying regarding advertising a "gun free zone". Maybe that is a neon sign!

It's the saddest thing is no one in congress grew up this way. In my experience strangers were not the enemy...

I have a dog house on my property but no dog. My neighbor, the same. Of course there are other measures but it is the staging of security.

Some people are afraid of dogs.

Rose.....it’s all about perspectives and how they can change base on your living situation. I grew up in NJ and it is a very anti-gun State. I grew up with the mindset of the general population of everyone living there that guns were scary and foreign. I never saw a gun in NJ unless it was on a police officer (I didn’t know how to pump my own gas because that was illegal too but that’s another story). In NJ, you must **retreat** first if an intruder breaks into your home. Growing up in Jersey, I was petrified of guns.

Now I live in what could be considered a pro-gun State with a Stand Your Ground law. Guns are quite common. I have a dog and I have a gun.

While NJ seems like a more genteel and sophisticated way of life, I sleep better having a gun close by in a safe location.

‘Just mentioning this for all the people here who have only lived in one area or Country that had a sole philosophy about individual’s gun ownership. Perspectives can change based on where you live, your needs, and what is considered the norm.

 

[kaen]

Okay, fair enough, it seems current law enforcement and such are supposed to run into gunfire without any kind of knowledge and just hope they don't get shot. That's just reckless, imo. I'm not saying wait for very long--just take a moment to assess basics so they can actually help. But I won't belabour the point, as the world has just gone mad (feels like lol).

I am with on it feeling like the world has gone mad. I never thought I would be trained in active shooters. I never thought I would have to drill with young children and think about having a bucket in a closet in case we were there for hours and kids need to pee. Our local resource officer never thought she would have to build relationships with kids so they saw her face because part of our training was to not trust that the person with the uniform was really who we thought they were. It is freaking crazy. It makes me sad.

 

[Jax49]

https://www.news4jax.com/news/flori...l-safety-coming-to-putnam-county-sheriff-says

[h=1]Putnam County to train, deputize school personnel for active shooter[/h][h=2]Sheriff, superintendent announce new school safety program[/h]

Some personnel in Putnam County public schools could soon be trained and deputized to respond if an active shooter attacks their school.

On Wednesday, Sheriff Gator DeLoach and Superintendent Dr. Rick Surrency announced the program called STAR, which stands for the Sheriff's Trained Armed Response program.

The plan would involve people who work in the schools, who would go through extensive training, psychological screenings, drug screenings and background checks.

 

[Springrain]

There's also the fact of different regions of some states having vastly different views on gun controls. My state of Washington is a good example of this. Western (liberal) vs Eastern (conservative) Washington are quite divided on this issue, among many others. I live in Western Washington, which thankfully aligns with my values more.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

There's also the fact of different regions of some states having vastly different views on gun controls. My state of Washington is a good example of this. Western (liberal) vs Eastern (conservative) Washington are quite divided on this issue, among many others. I live in Western Washington, which thankfully aligns with my values more.

Agreed and this difference in perspectives goes beyond just States or regions of the USA. It applies to differences in perspectives from Country to Country.

Perspectives can be fluid and variable.

 

[Springrain]

I'm very thankful my wonderful Governor Jay Inslee has been abundantly clear that he is well aware of the views of the people of Washington (Western WA has a bigger population than Eastern WA) and has spoken with them about the topic of arming teachers. Also, it takes about six months to train teachers as law enforcement agencies.

I encourage you all to take a look at this: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/26/17054474/jay-inslee-trump-guns-teachers

I am very passionate about gun control, but particularly the issue of arming teachers.

 

[CoolJ]

I thought there were reports that the Broward County SO officers were given a stand down order because they weren’t wearing body cams or some crazy excuse like that. Is that not hat happened? Why are they making this one guy a scapegoat when they were ordered not to enter?

 

[rsd1200]

“I’m just not feelin’ it tonight & this looks like a bad scene....maybe a bit scary so I’ll just let it play out on its own...”

You can see surly that not following protocol in the above hypothetical self-talk of a police officer in an emergency situation would cause the general population undue risk.

It’s really quite simple.

I do agree that not one alone police officer will be penalized/fired/suspended after this investigation of the school shooting is finished.

There were three other Broward county deputies in the parking lot. The one fella who is being pointed out, did know which building the shooter was in, because he was waiting, within site of the door, and even gave info to other LEOs. Teachers and kids were running out of the building, some told folks who was in there, that he had a firearm, and described the shooter, and that he was going up the stairs. When the other LEOs arrived, and entered the bldg, two of the Broward deputies entered with them, at that time. I think the other LEOs were kinda surprised to see all four outside the building when they arrived. I posted a link either in this thread, or an earlier one, but don't have it at my fingertips right now. This snafu has definitely convinced me that we do not need armed teachers, if trained LEOs, one on site and the others close at hand, had difficulty neutralizing the situation.

 

[PrairieWind]

I'm very thankful my wonderful Governor Jay Inslee has been abundantly clear that he is well aware of the views of the people of Washington (Western WA has a bigger population than Eastern WA) and has spoken with them about the topic of arming teachers. Also, it takes about six months to train teachers as law enforcement agencies.

I encourage you all to take a look at this: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/26/17054474/jay-inslee-trump-guns-teachers

I am very passionate about gun control, but particularly the issue of arming teachers.

I agree to your earlier post about how those in some areas have different opinions that those in others. East Washington vs West Washington as you stated. There are similarly situations in many states, urban vs rural. I think those peoples needs should be addressed.

But as to this post of yours, with all due respect, I think your Governor is being a bit disingenuous. I don't know of anyone saying that teachers should become actual law enforcement officers that require 6 months training. Soldiers go to combat with less training than that. Much simpler training would be more than adequate to allow some teachers to be armed. I live in a state where the decision of whether to allow school employees to be armed is left up to the individual school districts. My county has two districts. One, a more rural district does allow it. That makes sense. Those rural people are used to firearms and comfortable with the concept. They also are aware of the fact that because of the size of this county, in the event of a school shooting, a law enforcement response could take 20-30 minutes. The more urban district has not elected to allow firearms. However, I know there are several teachers that have petitioned the school board to allow them to carry a firearm and there is voter pressure to allow it. We will see what happens.

What is your Governor's plan to protect the school kids?

 

[rsd1200]

Ohhhh, LE needs back up! Big time... Imo

In this regard I really agree with what this administration is saying regarding advertising a "gun free zone". Maybe that is a neon sign!

It's the saddest thing is no one in congress grew up this way. In my experience strangers were not the enemy...

I have a dog house on my property but no dog. My neighbor, the same. Of course there are other measures but it is the staging of security.

Some people are afraid of dogs.

O/T Go to Tractor Supply and get a Beware of Dog sign, and the biggest dog food bowl that you can find, and place it in a visible area, and then paint the name "Gator" or "Tank" on the front of the doghouse.

 

[Tricia]

IGNORE ANY POSTER THAT BOTHERS YOU. SCROLL PAST.

Recently we had a poster come on a very busy thread and post just stupid things. Like out of the blue they would post "YES" next post "NO". All meant to disrupt. That is what I mean by a troll.

If you react to a poster who makes statements so far apart from your belief that it upsets you, you can't expect a mod to come in and rescue you.

IGNORE. IGNORE IGNORE.

What would happen if every poster ignores the poster that is bothering them? The poster stops getting attention.

At times the whole point of a poster is to try and get banned so they can say there were banned because they expressed a position that I didn't agree with. They walk a fine line so they can say, "I was just expressing my opinion and I got banned".

It is up to you to ignore posters who bother you and unless there is a legit violation of TOS then the posters can stay.

However, if you respond in a rude manner guess who gets the timeout?

Last time. Ignore and scroll. If you don't and you respond in a manner that is against TOS you will be the one getting the vacation.

To any poster who is walking right up to the line of trolling, the second, you step over that line, you are done.

Tricia

 

[rsd1200]

An article I ran across while researching the Rhoden case:

Recognizing the Sound of Gunfire

Gunfire inside a building doesn’t sound like gunfire at the shooting range. I’ve participated in numerous active shooter training scenarios where I have been tasked with finding the “shooter” inside a large building. Even when the person playing the role of the shooter is firing full power blank cartridges, it is difficult to locate him inside a school or office building.

Rather than relying on hearing the shots, you should be gathering intelligence on the shooter’s location by looking for blood, empty cartridge cases, and smoke. Asking the victims or fleeing students where the shooter is will also be a vital tactic. Don’t rely solely on your ability to hear the shots as your means to find the gunman!

Quickly recognizing the sound of gunfire is a critical skill for surviving an active shooter event. Unfortunately, it is something most people never think about. Don’t be caught in the web of denial and rationalization like so many past shooting victims. Learn to identify shots being fired and have an escape plan!

There is a list of things you can do, to help recognize/survive, an active shooter situation, within the linked article, too.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/recognizing-the-sound-of-gunfire

 

[Sulamith]

I would paint the name "Cujo" on the dog house! :scared:

 

[human]

I am enraged. Enraged that because for some reason people think they need to have rifles that shred the insides of humam beings.

Enraged because of this desire, we are asking LE to give up their lives for a weapon. Enraged because we are turning our schools into prisons. Enraged because people are dying in schools, malls, hospitals, and on and on because people want a death machne.

 

[osu]

https://twitter.com/ap_images/status/968938936973365255

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