Gun Control Debate #5

[Hatfield]

Father of Parkland Victim: Gun Control Is Not 'Achievable,' Focus on School Safety

http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/03/...llack-gun-control-not-achievable-focus-school

Andrew Pollack, whose daughter died in the Parkland, Florida, high school shooting, said Monday he does not believe gun control legislation is "achievable" in the current political climate.

Instead, Pollack called on Florida lawmakers to pass Gov. Rick Scott's (R) proposed bill, which focuses on school safety and mental health.

"I'm about being productive and doing something that's achievable right now. And what's achievable is everyone getting together and making our schools safe."

JMO
I agree with a lot of what the father is saying. Early on in this thread I was harping about wanting schools to have metal detectors at their doors since so many of these shooters seem to walk right in with a weapon.
And it is something that could be done by the schools without waiting on the government for anything.

I agree with Flourish that we need a multi-dimensional approach.

I think this whole issue is sort of like the terrorist issue. We are never going to be able to stop all mass shooters and mass killers all of the time but we can surely do things to help prevent them.

I would like to see some common sense things done first that could be done quickly. Whether that be metal detectors or having trained and armed security guards hired to be at the school or other things.
And I am even for some common sense new regulations like banning bump stocks and other common sense things.

I would just hope the school administrators and other powers to be would try to tackle the easy ones first to get something done. Way too much time is spent on the harder ones and then nothing gets done. Its time the powers to be actually do something for a change. Do the easy ones first and then begin to tackle the harder things.

 

[Tawny]

Or when they skip school on the first day of deer season.

When I was in high school half of the student body missed morning classes on Ash Wednesday so they could go to Mass.

HA! I forgot about those. Both of those were excused in my high school. High Catholic population in a rural community.

 

[flourish]

Yes I understand why you said what you said, and that it was due to my less than perfectly worded post. I'll say that even if these kids were leaving school in order to demand that their 2nd Amendment rights not be diminished, I still wouldn't support it. They are in school for an education and that should be the priority.

They are still getting an education. It's called hands-on learning. Again, please do explain your pedagogical experience and understanding of best teaching practices.

And, yes, Tawny, my friend, half the boys in my classes growing up missed part of the first week of hunting season. Nobody freaked out about that!

Children's lives are very much impacted by politics and they should be allowed to voice their opinions.

 

[Blef]

Yes I understand why you said what you said, and that it was due to my less than perfectly worded post. I'll say that even if these kids were leaving school in order to demand that their 2nd Amendment rights not be diminished, I still wouldn't support it. They are in school for an education and that should be the priority.

Education is not just learning math, English etc. Educating a person to be a socially responsible person is a life lesson that will never leave them. The 1st amendment allows them to demonstrate any time. They should be encouraged to raise their voices and let the government hear what they are saying.

 

[flourish]

JMO
I agree with a lot of what the father is saying. Early on in this thread I was harping about wanting schools to have metal detectors at their doors since so many of these shooters seem to walk right in with a weapon.
And it is something that could be done by the schools without waiting on the government for anything.

I agree with Flourish that we need a multi-dimensional approach.

I think this whole issue is sort of like the terrorist issue. We are never going to be able to stop all mass shooters and mass killers all of the time but we can surely do things to help prevent them.

I would like to see some common sense things done first that could be done quickly. Whether that be metal detectors or having trained and armed security guards hired to be at the school or other things.
And I am even for some common sense new regulations like banning bump stocks and other common sense things.

I would just hope the school administrators and other powers to be would try to tackle the easy ones first to get something done. Way too much time is spent on the harder ones and then nothing gets done. Its time the powers to be actually do something for a change. Do the easy ones first and then begin to tackle the harder things.

I hope schools are allowed to make changes and are given funding to do so.

 

[bluesneakers]

They have the right to protest but it may not be without consequences.

7 things you need to know about students' rights in Wednesday's school walkouts

https://www.naplesnews.com/story/ne...-rights-wednesdays-school-walkouts/420960002/

Students keep their First Amendment right to protest while in school.

Schools can’t censor student speech, he wrote, unless it “materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others.”

A schoolwide walkout is more disruptive than an armband, but it's allowed.

Nevertheless, schools can discipline students who take part.

If students leave school to protest, schools can bar them from re-entering.

Schools are all over the map about the planned walkout.

Social media protest postings on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter or Snapchat could bring punishment.

Younger students could face harsher penalties for protesting.

The First Amendment doesn't apply to private schools.

Oh, sorry. I don't remember saying it would be without consequences. I'm a big believer in holding people accountable for what they say. We all have freedom of speech but we don't have freedom from its consequences.

I doubt the students today will face such stiff penalties. After all nothing they're doing or saying is offensive. They just want us to hear them. Anyway whatever they might face as a result of the walkout - I'm sure they will consider the protest worth the price.

 

[bluesneakers]

They are still getting an education. It's called hands-on learning. Again, please do explain your pedagogical experience and understanding of best teaching practices.

And, yes, Tawny, my friend, half the boys in my classes growing up missed part of the first week of hunting season. Nobody freaked out about that!

Children's lives are very much impacted by politics and they should be allowed to voice their opinions.

I pulled my daughter out of school three times (for the whole day!) to attend political events. Yet she somehow managed to graduate (with honors) and then went on to graduate from college.

I just don't see how the students who walked out today are jeopardizing their education or getting behind on their homework or turning into delinquents. IMO this is important work they're doing today and their parents should be proud.

 

[Tawny]

Oh, sorry. I don't remember saying it would be without consequences. I'm a big believer in holding people accountable for what they say. We all have freedom of speech but we don't have freedom from its consequences.

Like:
Cop fired over racist remarks, Boca Raton police say

Army cancels Ted Nugent's performance at Fort Knox over Obama comments

CBS Fires Don Imus Over Racial Slur

I doubt the students today will face such stiff penalties. And whatever they might face I'm sure they will consider the protest worth the price.

Wait. Are you comparing skipping some class time for the purpose of exercising 1st Amendment rights to... racial slurs?

 

[Jax49]

Slightly O/T - Calls from students to 911. Warning VERY INTENSE.

New 911 calls released in Stoneman Douglas shooting:
'They are all bleeding. They are going to die'

​http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g-911-calls-coral-springs-20180313-story.html

 

[Blef]

Slightly O/T - Calls from students to 911. Warning VERY INTENSE.

New 911 calls released in Stoneman Douglas shooting:
'They are all bleeding. They are going to die'

​http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g-911-calls-coral-springs-20180313-story.html

oh my heart

 

[bluesneakers]

Wait. Are you comparing skipping some class time for the purpose of exercising 1st Amendment rights to... racial slurs?

No, no, not at all!! I just listed three examples of people paying the price after exercising their 1st Amendment rights. It's not what they said, it's what happened after.

If the students today didn't have official permission and get detention or get an unexcused absence written on their report cards I wouldn't like it (and I hope they don't!) but I can understand how something like that might be a consequence of the walkout.

 

[bluesneakers]

Wait. Are you comparing skipping some class time for the purpose of exercising 1st Amendment rights to... racial slurs?

No, no, not at all!! I just listed three examples of people paying the price after exercising their 1st Amendment rights. It's not what they said, it's what happened after. I edited it a bit to (I hope) make it more clear.

If the students today didn't have official permission and get detention or get an unexcused absence written on their report cards I wouldn't like it (and I hope they don't!) but I can understand how something like that might be a consequence of the walkout.

 

[Jax49]

oh my heart

My nasty side says the cops who waited outside should have to listen to that every day. moo

 

[human]

JMO
I agree with a lot of what the father is saying. Early on in this thread I was harping about wanting schools to have metal detectors at their doors since so many of these shooters seem to walk right in with a weapon.
And it is something that could be done by the schools without waiting on the government for anything.

I agree with Flourish that we need a multi-dimensional approach.

I think this whole issue is sort of like the terrorist issue. We are never going to be able to stop all mass shooters and mass killers all of the time but we can surely do things to help prevent them.

I would like to see some common sense things done first that could be done quickly. Whether that be metal detectors or having trained and armed security guards hired to be at the school or other things.
And I am even for some common sense new regulations like banning bump stocks and other common sense things.

I would just hope the school administrators and other powers to be would try to tackle the easy ones first to get something done. Way too much time is spent on the harder ones and then nothing gets done. Its time the powers to be actually do something for a change. Do the easy ones first and then begin to tackle the harder things.

Where is the money going to come from? How would metal detectors work with the multitude of students? How many armed personnel stand at how many rows of metal detectors?

Some schools do not even have heat or books. And teachers buy supplies.

 

[human]

No, no, not at all!! I just listed three examples of people paying the price after exercising their 1st Amendment rights. It's not what they said, it's what happened after. I edited it a bit to (I hope) make it more clear.

If the students today didn't have official permission and get detention or get an unexcused absence written on their report cards I wouldn't like it (and I hope they don't!) but I can understand how something like that might be a consequence of the walkout.

Luckily the administrators have a special shield around them so they won’t get shot at school. Or at the mall, or at a movie, or driving down the street , or walking down a street, or at church , or or or or or ad infinituml

 

[human]

They are still getting an education. It's called hands-on learning. Again, please do explain your pedagogical experience and understanding of best teaching practices.

And, yes, Tawny, my friend, half the boys in my classes growing up missed part of the first week of hunting season. Nobody freaked out about that!

Children's lives are very much impacted by politics and they should be allowed to voice their opinions.

And leaving early for a vacation. In one private school in the city I lived in, they shut the school a week early before Christmas vacation because so many kids were leaving for Vail or Europe or the Bahamas or wherever.

And how about missing time because of fire drills, tornado drills and lockdown drills?

State tournaments? Kids leaving school to go out of the city for football, hockey, baseball, swimming, debate, cheerleading, robotics competition, what else?

 

[bobcat]

Education is not just learning math, English etc. Educating a person to be a socially responsible person is a life lesson that will never leave them. The 1st amendment allows them to demonstrate any time. They should be encouraged to raise their voices and let the government hear what they are saying.

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but the problem that I see is these kids are all being told what to think, and what to say. All students participating in the walk out today probably do not agree with the gun control message that's being put out there. I feel like these kids are being used by the anti-gun people. Elementary age children certainly shouldn't be allowed to participate. They're not old enough to have formed their own political opinions yet, and I'm sure they don't have a complete understanding of our Constitutional rights and why they're so important. It's not fair, in my opinion, to ask these young children to go out and try to help have their rights taken away. High school kids, I don't have as much of a problem with, as they're old enough to think on their own. But still, I see no reason why these protests can't be done AFTER school.

 

[bluesneakers]

And leaving early for a vacation. In one private school in the city I lived in, they shut the school a week early before Christmas vacation because so many kids were leaving for Vail or Europe or the Bahamas or wherever.

And how about missing time because of fire drills, tornado drills and lockdown drills?

State tournaments? Kids leaving school to go out of the city for football, hockey, baseball, swimming, debate, cheerleading, robotics competition, what else?

Band and choir performances and competitions.
We went to the symphony once every year 8th grade to 12th grade.
I convinced my high school drama teacher to add "A Chorus Line" as a field trip.

 

[bluesneakers]

You all have been posting some amazing thoughts and information.

Most of you.

Let's lay down some rules that should keep everything on track.

1-NO DISCUSSION OF TRUMP OTHER THAN HOW HE IS DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO THE GUN CONTROL DEBATE
This means no mention of how much he is hated or loved, anything to do with his tweeting unless it is gun control related.

2-WE CAN ALL AGREE TRUMP HAD NOTES DURING THE MEETING. End of story. Yes, I know some of the notes were telling or maybe not. IT IS NOT IMPORTANT.
Let's bring the discussion back to guns.

3-PLEASE STOP WITH THE ACCUSATION THAT THESE KIDS ARE BASICALLY PUPPETS. They are kids. They will get help from adults and adults would be involved. They will get a lot of help from adults who agree with them. Don't know how you feel but I am so proud of these young people it brings tears to my eyes.

4-PLEASE LET PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT OPINIONS EXPRESS THEM WITHOUT ATTACKING. I want to hear from the people who believe differently than I do. If someone posts an unpopular opinion, of course, you can challenge them but do it in a way where I don't have to remove your post and time you out. Please. Let every opinion be heard and discussed in a mature manner. As long as the opinions expressed are within our Terms of Service.

OK. Be nice to each other and let the discussion begin.

Thank you,
Tricia

Bumpity bump.

 

[human]

A message from Dunblane to Parkland.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-43385518