Gun Control Debate #6

[bears10]

Our prisons are filled with these folks, my friend. That’s one big way they bust up gangs.

Can you post some links to the cases where gang leaders are in jail on RICO charges and gangs have been busted up due to said arrests? I’m genuinely curious. I’m from NJ and NY, and not a stranger to people in my direct area being arrested for organized crime. But they go to club fed ... and no street gangs gave been “bust up” because of the arrests to my knowledge. So I’d be interested in reading more about that. Because if gang members can be arrested for being affiliated with a gang, I would strongly suspect Suffolk county (ny) PD would be knocking on doors arresting MS13 members, given the NIMBY attitude here.

ETA - I got caught up in my own post. Please provide links for gang members being arrested for being gang members. Not Rico charges. TIA

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

There are plenty of posts on here that at least imply they would be fine with ALL guns being gone from the United States. Either that, or the suggestions for "gun control" are such that if implemented, WOULD essentially mean an end to gun ownership, with the possible exception of extremely wealthy people.

Yes, some have expressed their personal preference while also admitting full-out bans on all guns aren’t a logical or legal in America. There’s a yuuuge difference in the two.

One = thought.
Other = action.
Apples =/= oranges.

And the last part is conjecture and your opinion, which is fine, obviously. Otherwise, please provide forum-acceptable sources to back up those assertions. TIA

 

[Caffeine]

The Parkland shooter “freely shot” dozens of victims because he had easy, unrestricted access to a weapon that allowed him to do it. IMO

And, yes, we also need massive health care reform in this country, too.

It’s not an either-or decision.

Moo

Of course it's not an either or type thing, the solution to gun violence requires a layered approach; there's a multitude of reasons why it happens. With the FL shooter it was a perfect storm of problems that led to the incident. Honestly, he should have been locked up way before the thought of walking into a gun shop crossed his mind, but yes, raising the age and requirements for long guns could benefit from a change. It shouldn't be easier to buy an AR-15 than it is to buy a 6 shot revolver.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Of course it's not an either or type thing, the solution to gun violence requires a layered approach; there's a multitude of reasons why it happens. With the FL shooter it was a perfect storm of problems that led to the incident. Honestly, he should have been locked up way before the thought of walking into a gun shop crossed his mind, but yes, raising the age and requirements for long guns could benefit from a change. It shouldn't be easier to buy an AR-15 than it is to buy a 6 shot revolver.

All of this, Caffeine. Thank you.

 

[Doghairrules]

BOMBS are illegal. There’s really no arguing that point, afaik. A la Boston marathon ... bombing.

Also, and I don’t mean this to sound insincere, but the Boston bombs only killed 3 people and the serial bomber in TX has only killed 2 people (so far) with 4 (5?) bombs. I like my chances better with a bomb than a semiautomatic weapon.

 

[bears10]

Also, and I don’t mean this to sound insincere, but the Boston bombs only killed 3 people and the serial bomber in TX has only killed 2 people (so far) with 4 (5?) bombs. I like my chances better with a bomb than a semiautomatic weapon.

Right, only 3 people were killed, who cares? /s

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Right, only 3 people were killed, who cares? /s

Only 58 people dead and 851 more injured, who cares? /s
Only 17 killed and 17 more wounded, who cares? /s
Only 49 people killed and 58 more wounded, who cares? /s

 

[bears10]

Only 58 people dead and 851 more injured, who cares? /s
Only 17 killed and 17 more wounded, who cares? /s
Only 49 people killed and 58 more wounded, who cares? /s

I never said I wasn’t supportive of stricter regulations. It just seems ironic that “only 3 people getting killed” at the Boston marathon is NBD, yet statistically the chances of being a victim of a mass or school shooting are very low.

 

[MaryG12]

And gun-free zones are about a whole lot more than signage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

There is some really good information at that link, thank you for sharing.

From the link:

Penalty
18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(4) establishes the penalty for violating GFSZA:


Whoever violates the Act shall be fined not more than $5,000, imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the term of imprisonment imposed under this paragraph shall not run concurrently with any other term of imprisonment imposed under any other provision of law.


A conviction under the GFSZA will cause an individual to become a "prohibited person" under the Gun Control Act of 1968. It is unlawful for a "prohibited person" to own, purchase, or possess "firearms" as defined by US federal law. A US presidential pardon may remove this civil disability.[5][6]

..................................

That is just for bringing a gun onto school property, it does not address killing of students/teachers/admins.

If this GFSZA is maintained and not eliminated at some point, it should have a clause stating that feigning mental illness for bringing a gun onto the campus and shooting people will be next to impossible.

These need to be treated as deliberate, premeditated acts, not the result of mental illness.

 

[Woodland]

I never said I wasn’t supportive of stricter regulations. It just seems ironic that “only 3 people getting killed” at the Boston marathon is NBD, yet statistically the chances of being a victim of a mass or school shooting are very low.

Do you have any back-up to support your statistical claim?

Seems to me school shootings are currently evolving and escalating. Who has gathered the info and how was it analyzed?

If not available, then this would be your opinion and should be stated as such.

 

[Blef]

There is some really good information at that link, thank you for sharing.

From the link:

Penalty
18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(4) establishes the penalty for violating GFSZA:


Whoever violates the Act shall be fined not more than $5,000, imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the term of imprisonment imposed under this paragraph shall not run concurrently with any other term of imprisonment imposed under any other provision of law.


A conviction under the GFSZA will cause an individual to become a "prohibited person" under the Gun Control Act of 1968. It is unlawful for a "prohibited person" to own, purchase, or possess "firearms" as defined by US federal law. A US presidential pardon may remove this civil disability.[5][6]

..................................

That is just for bringing a gun onto school property, it does not address killing of students/teachers/admins.

If this GFSZA is maintained and not eliminated at some point, it should have a clause stating that feigning mental illness for bringing a gun onto the campus and shooting people will be next to impossible.

These need to be treated as deliberate, premeditated acts, not the result of mental illness.

so hang on. Are you saying these school shooters are mental health malingerers? I’d like to see the link that backs that up.

 

[CADwrest]

Do you have any back-up to support your statistical claim?

Seems to me school shootings are currently evolving and escalating. Who has gathered the info and how was it analyzed?

If not available, then this would be your opinion and should be stated as such.

bears10 isn't wrong.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-are-we-afraid-of-mass-shootings#modal-close

From the link: "The lifetime risk of dying in a mass shooting is around 1 in 110,154 — about the same chance of dying from a dog attack or legal execution."

However, all mass shootings are not school shootings, and all school shootings are not mass shootings. So:

https://www.campussafetymagazine.com/safety/u-s-school-shooting-statistics-us/

From that link:

"Meanwhile, the aforementioned 2015 report counted just 31 homicides of students aged 5-18 that occurred at school or while traveling to or from school between July of 2012 and June of 2013. That puts the likelihood a student will be killed at school at less than one in a million!"

 

[Doghairrules]

I never said I wasn’t supportive of stricter regulations. It just seems ironic that “only 3 people getting killed” at the Boston marathon is NBD, yet statistically the chances of being a victim of a mass or school shooting are very low.

That’s not at all what I was saying. I’m saying that if I was in a mass killing situation, it appears that I’m more likely to survive a bombing than a shooting with automatic weapons.

 

[Woodland]

bears10 isn't wrong.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-are-we-afraid-of-mass-shootings#modal-close

From the link: "The lifetime risk of dying in a mass shooting is around 1 in 110,154 — about the same chance of dying from a dog attack or legal execution."

However, all mass shootings are not school shootings, and all school shootings are not mass shootings. So:

https://www.campussafetymagazine.com/safety/u-s-school-shooting-statistics-us/

From that link:

"Meanwhile, the aforementioned 2015 report counted just 31 homicides of students aged 5-18 that occurred at school or while traveling to or from school between July of 2012 and June of 2013. That puts the likelihood a student will be killed at school at less than one in a million!"

There is so much wrong here imo, I hardly know where to start.

First, I take great exception when anyone uses 'only' when referring to school or other mass shooting deaths. I also take great exception to anyone telling me to 'only' count those shootings and deaths where 4 or more people died in a single incident and to exclude other deaths. I'll count them all, thank-you very much.

This includes shootings in which four or more people were killed by one or two shooters. It excludes shootings related to gang violence, as well as those that started as other crimes or involved only the shooter’s family.

And I would not call this statistic, from the same article a small matter -

The National Safety Council puts the lifetime risk of being killed in the United States by any assault with a firearm at 1 in 358.

The article goes on to compare other forms of death - who cares? The immediate problem imo is people dying all day, everyday, in many cities/towns across America from gunshot wounds, stemming from the easy access to many types of guns.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-are-we-afraid-of-mass-shootings#4

I refuse to let anyone change my mind or my focus on the gun deaths. It's a disgrace and I'm now quite ashamed that Canada has let the problem become quite prevalent, however we are taking major steps right now to try and get this under control.

The second link provided, 'Campus Safety', has a vested interest imo, to understating campus deaths from guns. The article starts out with -

By now nearly all schools have planned their response to school shootings: In 2016, the CDC found nearly 90 percent of public schools had a written plan for responding to school shootings, and 70 percent of those schools had drilled students on the plan.

This is for good reason: Shootings are among the most deadly types of emergencies a school may face, and one recent study even found that school shootings are increasing on college campuses.

- then goes on to 'putting school shootings into context'. That context, from an article written 6 Dec 2017, consists of -

Meanwhile, the aforementioned 2015 report counted just 31 homicides of students aged 5-18 that occurred at school or while traveling to or from school between July of 2012 and June of 2013. That puts the likelihood a student will be killed at school at less than one in a million!

The above is completely downplaying the problem imo. And what's with this -

Focusing on gun-related school death statistics is necessary to zero in on school shootings. The CDC counted 123 instances of students using guns in school-related homicides or suicides between July of 1992 and June of 1999

https://www.campussafetymagazine.com/safety/u-s-school-shooting-statistics-us/

I find the overall data skewed and can only give it an F - for failure to give a comprehensive breakdown and meaningful or critical look at the problem.

All jmo.

 

[MaryG12]

so hang on. Are you saying these school shooters are mental health malingerers? I’d like to see the link that backs that up.

Ah no.

What I am saying is:

It should be very hard to play the mental illness card if someone premeditates shooting up a school.

MOO

 

[Safeguard]

In a simpler, fictitious world, we could just legislate guns into oblivion and the world would be safe for school children everywhere...
But we don't live in that world, we live in this one, where a lot of our "reality" is clearly what we make of it...

Ah, if only the guns were the least of our problems... Guns take lives and guns save lives, there are, by far, more legit reasons for gun ownership, than not. (Most gun owners are not going "hey I wanna shoot up my school!), by far.

So why is it, that the real problems are being regulated into a tiny-teeny corner of all the hubris? All the debates, marches, protests, walkouts ect... why is it being patently ignored that the real problem is not a gun problem, not an "action problem", but a "failure to act" problem?

The Parkland massacre was successful, because the government and police failed to act on multiple crimes NC committed, as well as a request by, ironically, Scot Peterson to have him committed. Not to mention the FBI tips and police who refused to enter the building.

Massive governmental/administrative and/or personal failure, is not a "gun problem". Children were led to believe the police/community/ school personnel would protect them, and they did not.

The Birmingham shooting was successful because the metal detectors were not being used that day. Clearly if you feel you need metal detectors in a violent community you should probably use them. More government failure. I don't know much about the shooter, but I doubt we won't find even more failures there.

CMU was a guy who shot his parents. That could have happened anywhere. The media doesn't seem very interested in this one, strange isn't it?

Sandy Hook was yet another kid with mental problems that didn't get the help he needed, who killed his own parent to obtain weapons. Is there a law that fixes that? Maybe we could make murder of your parent(s) double illegal?

Why no protesters shouting, UPHOLD OUR LAWS, PROTECT OUR SCHOOLS!" ??

Nope. It's always about the gun. Left vs Right, to hell with reality...

In Maryland the RO was notified, sought out the shooter, and neutralized the situation with one shot, no students were killed.

Those kids were not forced to be just sitting ducks, because the adults in there lives acted responsibly. . All just my own opinion of course...

 

[kimlynn]

Budget Deal Lifts Ban On Federal Research Of Gun Violence.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dickey-amendment-budget-deal_us_5ab2c67fe4b008c9e5f3cbfe

WASHINGTON ―The federal government would finally be authorized to study gun violence under a provision included in a two-year $1.3 trillion spending package released by congressional leaders Wednesday night.

 

[kimlynn]

This is my city so was happy to see some progress on gun control.

http://abc6onyourside.com/news/loca...un-regulations-after-record-year-of-homicides

Eleven new regulations were announced including banning the sale of bump stocks, banning the sale of imitation guns to minors, banning commercial weapons sales in residential areas, expanding domestic violence protections to people in dating relationships, pursuing automatic six-month jail sentences for domestic violence crimes involving guns and petitioning courts to take away guns from domestic violence offenders.

 

[Safeguard]

This is my city so was happy to see some progress on gun control.

http://abc6onyourside.com/news/loca...un-regulations-after-record-year-of-homicides

Eleven new regulations were announced including banning the sale of bump stocks, banning the sale of imitation guns to minors, banning commercial weapons sales in residential areas, expanding domestic violence protections to people in dating relationships, pursuing automatic six-month jail sentences for domestic violence crimes involving guns and petitioning courts to take away guns from domestic violence offenders.

Yay!
Although all that noise is going to do absolutely nothing to deter school shooters, I'm really happy that your happy!

 

[kimlynn]

Yay!
Although all that noise is going to do absolutely nothing to deter school shooters, I'm really happy that your happy!

Baby steps...I know. There was also this from the same website I posted above.

COLUMBUS, Ohio — A law that has been enacted in five other states has been proposed by two Ohio State Senators, in hopes that it can prevent school shootings like the one in Parkland, Florida. The so-called "red flag" law would allow family or law enforcement to take firearms from those deemed a danger to themselves or others for a period of 14 days. At some point during the two weeks, a hearing would be held before a common pleas court judge who could extend the period up to one year.