Hannah Graham: Remains Identified

[LI-Mom]

Re JM and Tempo:

While JM was a regular at the pedestrian mall, he was not (from all accounts) a regular at Tempo. So there was no one there that knew him to ask after Hannah's condition. Abby the door checker didn't know him, and the owner was tending bar with someone else and he didn't know JM either. JM and Hannah were a couple of strangers in a bar full of strangers.


Re Hannah's phone:

I wish I had thought of this earlier, and I hope LE did, but I should have searched on ebay and Craigslist for a used iPhone with a seller in VA. I think JM most likely tossed it, but you never know. If he kept trophies he may have kept things to sell too.

 

[Fascinated1]

I'm looking at the map in terms of -- where is her phone? I keep looking at the Tempo/Downtown Mall area, and thinking of how he would have been focused on heading south quickly & being seen as little as possible. For some reason, my fingers keep somehow hitting & clicking on the railroad tracks. That 4th street (SE) underpass, going underneath the tracks, just seems so creepy and sketchy and low. That's a one-way street heading south, right? I could imagine him stopping and hiding a pink busted-up phone up in there somewhere. (I hate subjecting my imagination to trying to get into his mind at that moment... )

Or it could be in Lexington Va if the person who saw the guy from the mh sketch there that weekend is correct.

 

[jbowman55]

I agree - it would take about 30 minutes for her to be incapacitated completely, that's about the drive time to the location where Hannah was found. I have experience this at a party, the scariest part is being able to "see what's going on, but no functionality available, no motor skills to talk or move". This would be consistent with a rapist, hence the name date rape drug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug

If JM bought drinks at 1:10 and slipped something into Hannah's, she would have already been well on her way to being totally incapacitated by the time they were leaving the Mall, if that happens within 30 minutes or so. It's conceivable that he would have had to carry her, at least part of the way, to his car.

What if that's the case? What if he'd given her a paralytic and she became unable to walk before they got to the car?

I've thought for several weeks that he might just set these situations up so that his victim is unconscious, or at least drugged and unable to fight back, before he assaults them. My thinking is based on the statement that the Fairfax victim made that he'd choked her unconscious before he raped her.

It is really not good to think of a person being driven to have violent sexual relations with an unconscious and/or unresponsive person. Not good at all.

 

[ThinkHard]

I can't help shake the feeling she was somehow acquainted with JLM. Maybe she wasnt intending to meet him, maybe she was. But its as if when she found/crossed paths with him, she ceased to urgently be trying to get somewhere. Whether that is because she arrived at her destination, or was lossed, and a familiar face promised to take care of her, I cannot say. But something is just nagging, that makes m feel it wasnt drugs/alcohol/poor judgement that caused her to go with him. But perhaps he had given her, on some level, reason to trust him.

 

[Piaget]

BBM

Why would someone like Hannah arrange to meet someone like Jesse? That doesn't work for me. We're talking about an 18 year with the world as a pearl in the palm of her hand, and a rapist with no life, no future, no life plan, nothing but more of the same nothing that he did with the first 32 years of his life.

On a college campus, the obvious answer to a question like this is: he was a drug connection. However, I hasten to add that there's no evidence that he was a dealer or she a user!!

 

[whiskers]

Sometimes they have cooling periods, where they go an extended time without kills. BTK had several. One was 8 years and another 5. Last known victim was 1991, and he was quiet until he tried to get media attention again in the 2000s. To be fair, there were intended victims in those times but you can find others by googling serial killer cooling periods.

Yes. Exactly. BTK would go years. I do wonder if SK with girlfriends, wives, etc. get distracted for a bit and then the bug bites again. Simply thinking out loud.

 

[zer0pointe]

BBM. By George, I think you've got it. Brilliant thinking.

JM and Hannah apparently spent at least a half hour either right outside or inside Tempo between 1:10 am and 1:45 am, which of course includes the time that the text was sent. It was probably as simple as JM asking Hannah if he could borrow her phone to send a text to a friend (meaning his own friend), at which time he sent a text to HER friends instead. He may or may not have ever given her phone back to her after that. He could have accidentally-on-purpose dropped it, or knocked it off the table, or spilled a drink on it, or he could have put it into his own pocket and, if she was intoxicated enough, she may not even have realized. He could have dropped it into a trash can on the mall. It could be anywhere by now.

You're exactly right, though. That really does show premeditation, imo, and isn't it an odd coincidence that the location texted is so near the Medical Center?

The other thing about this is that he wouldn't have known that she lived only a few blocks from 14th and Wertland, so he wouldn't know that it wouldn't make sense for her to say that she was lost at that location. She was a smart girl, so even intoxicated, she wouldn't have been lost there. No way.

Hope LE is reading and sees this. I really think you figured out the text thing. :goodpost:

Very interesting observations. Would have been nice to have checked Tempo's lost & found for a "accidentally left behind" phone. But an iPhone wouldn't stick around long nowadays.. it coulda even been on craigslist... :/

 

[otto]

Check out a post on the "Hannah's journey" thread, a few minutes ago from a member named MMLTW. Most plausible explanation I've yet heard for her strange route and long walk that night.

Could you please post the link?
Thx

 

[ThinkHard]

On a college campus, the obvious answer to a question like this is: he was a drug connection. However, I hasten to add that there's no evidence that he was a dealer or she a user!!

Or fake id's

 

[whiskers]

I don't really get the impression she knew him before. Unless she knew him from the hospital or his presence on campus.

However, I would be curious if he attended college parties. I remember from my college days people I knew from local bars would show up and it seemed completely normal.

 

[whiskers]

Or it could be in Lexington Va if the person who saw the guy from the mh sketch there that weekend is correct.

The person in Lex waited nearly two weeks to report it. So yes it was the weekend Hannah went missing, but it was nearly two weeks prior that the person supposedly spotted him. It lead me to wonder if someone in Lexington area knows more about him than others. Perhaps he has a friend in the area. They thought about it and then reported after two weeks.

 

[otto]

Thank you for sharing your experience. I think you posted an even more detailed description of this a few days ago, and I knew I would not be able to remember who posted it. I'm sorry that you went through that--if I remember correctly you had a friend who came to your aid. How truly frightening to be aware of the danger and unable to do anything to prevent it. I have been hoping that Hannah was NOT aware enough to realize what was happening to her. There is just no way to imagine the horror of her last experience on earth. I can only hope it was mercifully quick. I hold her parents in my heart...I do not know how I would survive, but I thank God they have the Harringtons to help lead them through this dark, dark time.

One of my daughters had the experience of having something put into her drink. When the drug first hit her, she told friends that something was wrong - too woozy for a drink and a half. It happened really quickly where she became incapacitated. A good friend took her outside for air, and her muscles completely gave way. Fortunately she was with good friends who took her to their home to recover. I heard about it later ... don't remember all the details, but she was in safe hands when it took control. They bathed her to help her come down from the drug.

 

[Rolo]

<RSBM>
[/QUOTE]You're exactly right, though. That really does show premeditation, imo, and isn't it an odd coincidence that the location texted is so near the Medical Center?

The other thing about this is that he wouldn't have known that she lived only a few blocks from 14th and Wertland,so he wouldn't know that it wouldn't make sense for her to say that she was lost at that location. She was a smart girl, so even intoxicated, she wouldn't have been lost there. No way.

Hope LE is reading and sees this. I really think you figured out the text thing. :goodpost:[/QUOTE]

I agree, this is a realistic scenario. Another thought is that after jlm "befriended" Hannah, if he offered her a ride home, she could have told him she needed to go near 14th & Wertland. He could later have texted "almost at 14th & Wertland" and it auto-corrected to "lost" at..... JMO

 

[wary]

Very interesting observations. Would have been nice to have checked Tempo's lost & found for a "accidentally left behind" phone. But an iPhone wouldn't stick around long nowadays.. it coulda even been on craigslist... :/

I thought that the police would have been able to find the iPhone if it had still been 'alive'? There's been speculation earlier that he would have had to destroy it in some way, smash it, or drop it into water, since it would still ping if the battery had run down?

 

[themom]

Only problem with my bus theory is they stop running much earlier (from earlier thread discussions)- but not sure whether Hannah knew that...
I just can't get out of my head how she was walking quickly, like she had a destination in mind-

She was definitely looking determined...the buses at the end of the mall makes sense to me. And then JM comes along, she says she's headed to the buses, and he tells her they stopped running, but he's an off duty taxi driver and can take her to her party. it makes sense to me.

 

[dda]

I can't help shake the feeling she was somehow acquainted with JLM. Maybe she wasnt intending to meet him, maybe she was. But its as if when she found/crossed paths with him, she ceased to urgently be trying to get somewhere. Whether that is because she arrived at her destination, or was lossed, and a familiar face promised to take care of her, I cannot say. But something is just nagging, that makes m feel it wasnt drugs/alcohol/poor judgement that caused her to go with him. But perhaps he had given her, on some level, reason to trust him.

I think you raise a good point about her level of apparent relaxation that we seem to see in the Tuel's video and from the door checker's account. I wondered at first if he didn't just walk up and strike up a conversation 'hey, where are you going?" She is lost---he offers a ride pretending to be a cabbie. etc. But tonight it occurred to me that he may have pretended to know her ("remember we met at ____?") and she was too polite and/or tired, drunk, etc. to disagree. In doing so, he might have gained her trust by mentioning mutual acquaintances (real or imagined), places they both knew (UVA), etc. Then after gaining her trust, he offered her a ride. In her vulnerable state, she might have let down her guard more easily.

 

[Film_At11]

Could you please post the link?
Thx

MMLTW post from Hannah's Journey Thread




MMLTW
MMLTW is online now Registered User

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QOUTE: First, apologies if I mess up this post, I'm new here.

I suppose it's pretty pointless to be posting about this now, but Graham's walk to the downtown mall has bothered me for a while and I just had an idea about what might have happened, so I'm going to go ahead and post anyway.

I went to UVa years ago and lived and worked on the mall for three years--in fact, right on Water Street just a block or so away from where Tempo now is. I must have walked between the school and the mall--down Main Street--a couple hundred times. It seems nearly impossible to me that she would have deliberately walked to the mall via Preston Ave, that's an incredibly roundabout route. But at the same time, I find it equally impossible to imagine any UVa student wandering lost all the way down to the mall area from the university area, even if heavily inebriated. If you were that lost, even drunk you'd phone friends, phone a cab service, you'd stop and ask someone at McGrady's...not just keep on and on walking. Her trip ending at the mall seems too much of a coincidence to be entirely accidental.

It finally occurred to me that she may have been using her phone GPS and input the street number wrong. When she left the last party, she could have gotten turned around and headed up 14th Street in the wrong direction and ended up wandering about for a bit. If she was unable to raise friends with a text message (loud music at parties), she could have decided to use her phone's GPS and tried to input 14th and Main, the central intersection right near both the parties and her apartment. All it would take would be one little mistake--4th and Main rather than 14th and Main--and if she was close to Grady Avenue at the time, the GPS would have taken her straight down Grady onto Preston and then up to the downtown mall, where the intersection of 4th and Main is.

If you see her after she leaves McGrady's in the video posted above, she stops momentarily, and I wonder if she's checking her phone then. Same thing when she's reaching into her back pocket in the mall video. I suppose it's possible she was placing her trust in the phone's GPS rather than acknowledging that something just wasn't right.

As I say, I suppose this really doesn't matter. Feel terrible for her family.
End Quote:

 

[MJPeony]

....

I suppose it's pretty pointless to be posting about this now, but Graham's walk to the downtown mall has bothered me for a while and I just had an idea about what might have happened, so I'm going to go ahead and post anyway.

I went to UVa years ago and lived and worked on the mall for three years--in fact, right on Water Street just a block or so away from where Tempo now is. I must have walked between the school and the mall--down Main Street--a couple hundred times. It seems nearly impossible to me that she would have deliberately walked to the mall via Preston Ave, that's an incredibly roundabout route. But at the same time, I find it equally impossible to imagine any UVa student wandering lost all the way down to the mall area from the university area, even if heavily inebriated. If you were that lost, even drunk you'd phone friends, phone a cab service, you'd stop and ask someone at McGrady's...not just keep on and on walking. Her trip ending at the mall seems too much of a coincidence to be entirely accidental.

Respectfully snipped for focus.

Welcome Optics!

So, I too went to UVa and worked on the downtown mall for a couple of years and walked Water Street many a time....Perhaps we know each other!

What I've snipped here is exactly what I've said/thought from the beginning. Being on the downtown mall that night seems too coincidental to be entirely accidental (I don't even know if that sentence structure makes sense, but I totally get what you mean when you say it! ) I can't figure it out, but something doesn't sit right with me with a theory that she just got lost and ended up down there. Of all places, given where she was supposedly trying to go, it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[otto]

I thought that the police would have been able to find the iPhone if it had still been 'alive'? There's been speculation earlier that he would have had to destroy it in some way, smash it, or drop it into water, since it would still ping if the battery had run down?

Morgan's phone battery was removed. The same thing probably happened with Hannah's phone at the moment that it went dead. Wasn't that when they were still at the Tempo bar ... somewhere around 1:30AM?

 

[ClueingForLooks]

I think she did know the difference and thought she was going the correct way but was not. There is actually a sign on Preston that she would have passed right past Bodo's that is really confusing. Because of the way the arrows are placed on that sign, it can be read to indicate that the Downtown Mall and UVA are both straight ahead. As we all know, that is not the case. But drunk and in the dark in an area that is not normally traveled on foot by students, I think she simply got going the wrong way(in fact, she was already turned around because when she arrived in the video from McGrady's she is approaching from the non-University side of McGrady's and walking in the correct direction to get home but then does the loop and heads back in the direction she came from which was the wrong direction). Then when she got to the Mall realized that going to the end of the mall and following Main St. would eventually get her home...except she got going the wrong way on the mall. I think she was power walking because she was tired, confused and trying not to look lost. I always power walk when I feel uncertain so as not to give off the vibe that I am vulnerable.

ETA: In some ways I have a very good sense of direction---take me to a new town, I can find my way around. But there are two places I get turned around---one is in Cville even though I live here. My office was on the Downtown Mall and I still get turned around all the time---my husband watches me go off in the wrong direction and just shakes his head. Williamsburg is the other place--absolutely no idea where I am when I go there.

She apparently texted her friends that she was at 14th and Wertland. The police mentioned that they believe the phone autocorrected mispellings.

I read on an older thread that she might have been trying to text "4th and Water". I'm not from the area but looking at a map, it makes sense. Don't the numbers (street names) count upwards in opposite directions? Very confusing. Also, that would put her near the garage where JLM's car was parked.

Biggles: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...sville-13-Sept-2014-3&p=10976083#post10976083
Evie Ivy Over: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...sville-13-Sept-2014-6&p=10985227#post10985227