Hannah Graham: Remains Identified

[Ollie]

Just my thoughts but from a 'spiked' drink at Tempo;free ride sounds good if you're alone,look at the high fives he gave ,he's known to people. She's in his car (per LE);I see a quick blow to the face,neck ,or chest with his ham-like fist;and he has his newest victim.(forget tasers ,he doesn't need them) .He shoots down 5th to OL and feels powerful there( this is where he grew up). I also feel he knew the cottage was empty,he plans these assaults ahead and then when he finds a victim ,he's ready. Assault is out of the car;he's a big guy in a compact car. If his MO holds(Fairfax victim) He strangles her and dumps body. Just my opinion. As for the turkey vultures /or black buzzards; from studies done in Texas at the Body Farm a corpse is left in a field for 5 weeks before the vultures find it ;in hrs it is broken bones. So when the birds were seen is irrelevant .The key to his conviction is the evidence found at the site. Possibly JM's DNA on her pants ,other clothing,her shoes, phone,found with his prints; and evidence from the orange car.Just my opinion.

 

[FindHG]

(sorry if repeat)
Legal cases are strengthening against Jesse Matthew, the alleged abductor of Hannah Graham.
Brian Todd reports.
Published on Oct 27, 2014
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riXe8KDQ4O4#t=62

 

[ThinkHard]

Do we know if her black pants were on the remains or "with" the remains? I'm posing this question because I doubt he took the time to pull her pants up if he raped her. Just doesn't seem like he would care.

Sorry edited my post...I thought you had said something else....when I reread it, I realized you where asking if he would have put them back on her...

 

[jbowman55]

jbowman55, actually I did stay up until 2AM to watch the 'Searching for Clues' segment on OTR Greta@Fox News. It is amazing to me how two people can watch the same investigative report and come away with completely different opinions, observations, and views. Wished they would post the link for the video of the OTR segment to get other websleuther's views..

Ted Williams; the AA investigative reporter in the segment is an experienced retired DC homicide Investigator and now an active Defense Attorney.. Griff Jenkins, is a Washington-based correspondent for FNC, producer, and investigative reporter for <11 years>. GJ produced the recent segment on OTR; 'Inside the home of Jesse Matthew' where he found a picture possible indicating drug residue that was missed by CSI--> http://video.foxnews.com/v/38517240...thew/?playlist_id=1849476279001#sp=show-clips

Both T Williams and G Jenkins, have been in VA for weeks now.. Being retired LE, ACPD/CPD investigators likely share info with TW that they wouldn't with others. JMO

jbowman55, although we all look through same eyes, we see different things...and that's a good thing...imo

Well, it is good that you know the background of the two men, which obviously I did not know. That does bring the report into a different perspective for me. If they were theorizing, knowing who they are and that they are well-experienced makes the theories more valuable than if they were just a couple of reporters giving a "sensationalizing" view of a crime scene.

I do absolutely agree that LE would share things with them that they wouldn't share with regular reporters.

I think we all have to be careful about believing that "sensationalizing" aspect of things, if we are trying to get a realistic view of what could have happened. Agreed? :thinking: I will have to do a better job of knowing who I'm talking about in future.

Thank you very much for filling me in on this.

 

[ThinkHard]

I completely agree. Own this book and also recently added this one to my stack: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594630836/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Dangerous Instincts: How Gut Feelings Betray Us

I agree with listening to your instincts....however its tricky because we can also be afraid of things simply because we are unfamiliar with them or do not understand them.....its the basis if prejudice....and "trusting" that fear is what can cause a lot of other bad stuff.....like our ignorance of Islam in this country for example....I think in these situation we accommodate people feeling "uncomfortable" "fearful" of what's unfamiliar, rather then using information to break down stereotypes.

I haven't read either book, so perhaps they address this side of listening to our instincts, and fear....but I just see this as a flip side to that advice too....

 

[jamicat]

Obviously we do not know exactly where JLM car was parked, but I sort of have a hunch LE does, and has some visual, either eyewitness or cameras...

I'm pretty sure there is a parking garage not far from where Tempo is on Water street....

I do not really buy the "ill give you a ride story" no matter what her state to a total stranger....I feel she must have somehow felt he was familiar and safe.....obviously until it was too late. I just think she would have only agreed to hang out with, go to tempo, or wait for him outside, and leave with him...was if she was somehow aquatinted...even just seeing him around...

Anyway I don't see how he just new her that night, I don't get how even as a former cab driver, he would have pulled a cabi line on Hannah....and it would have worked....why would a cabi bring her for a drink....who would take a ride from a cabi who was drinking? I know he'd offe girls rides when he was a cab driver....but I just don't see the cabi thing coming up at all here. I also do not think he would have said I just need to make one stop first...though I agree she could have passed out on her own very quickly after getting in the car.

Part of the reason this doesn't make sense to me...is because the easy easy route he could have take from the downtown mall....follow market to Ridge, take a left, follow Ridge which changes names but eventually turns into old lynchburg road....within seconds, he would have been driving through a sleeping residential area....and then onto a dark country road. It wouldn't have been more then a matter of minutes before he was out of sight of any possible witness....it is also not in the direction of UVA campus at all...which would have kept them in more populated area, more nightlife, and a higher chance of being seen.

Though we will never know what JM said to Hannah that got her to go with him, she willingly did. That she was inebriated, tired and confused could have contributed to the situation. We also know that JM did make a stop at Temp, pay for two drinks, and after that the description of Hannah was quite different from what we saw of her on tape. Even with the grainy quality, hard to see footage, it's clear she did not need help walking, much less standing. The checker, "Abby" states that she was very drunk and looked like she needed support at about 1:40AM. But still, we can't say for sure, she was slipped anything. Just looks likely to me.

But regardless, I think that given that condition described, she could have dozed off, passed out, or zoned out when she got into the car. Again, we are just presuming that she was offered a ride and that the Corner was where she wanted to go,but we'll never know for sure. Though highly unlikely, IMO, it is possible that she agreed to go out with JM for some recreational sex. Where we draw the line in terms of reasonable doubt at all, is that she did not agree to be left as a corpse where she was. Any injuries, beatings, whatever damages the ME can substantiate from the autopsy are pretty clearly inflicted on her.

But without anything to connect JM to where Hannah was found, to doing harm, there is a difficulty in proving in a court that she did go off willingly for whatever reason with JM. Lots of drunk girls get picked up by guys and go off doing things they would not have done in their right minds, or maybe they would have.

The ride story has some credence, given that she was on her way somewhere in the area of the Corner which LE pretty much has established from her texts and calls with people. LE seems to be sure enough to say she was at the Mall due to getting lost and they have said they have a lot of texts from her phone. So running into JM and a ride offer would have been like godsend to her. Also, with no purse and just planning to stay around the corner, tight pants on, she may not have brought her UVA ID or any wallet with money or cards. She would not have needed them if she were staying right in the area where she lived and was partying. If that was the case, she couldn't just get a ride with a cab without some hassle. I also suspect her cell phone batttery died, as she was texting away and then last text at 1:06 AM?

The essential things in this case now come down to what evidence could place JM where Hannah was found and any to show he did her harm. Can't prove much of anything as to why she went with him. At best, in terms, of charges, given her condition as reported, he was taking advantage and the "Abduction with Intent to Defile" could fit, but yes, it is possible she wanted to out and "party" with him upon pick up.

 

[ThinkHard]

It was Dave Hansen, former Assistant Pastor and friend of Jesse Matthew, who coined the phrase "gentle giant" in an inteview.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/no-bond-for-abduction-suspect-in-university-of-virginia-missing-case/

"I always thought he was a gentle giant, just a nice guy," Hansen said. "He seemed genuine with his faith and spirituality. ... I don't see him doing this at all, but that's usually the case, I guess."

Hansen said he's only kept up with Matthew through Facebook but ran into him at the university's medical center within the last year. He said the soft-spoken Matthew greeted him in an elevator with a high-five.

Could JLM have indeed been very into his faith? Maybe he did know what he was doing was wrong, and even felt guilty about it, could his faith have been an attempt for him to repent or even control his demands? Could he have maybe thought , albeit in a twisted way, that perhaps if he kept going to church, praying etc, that it would rid him of this evil? Maybe he felt he was possessed or something like that....or being punished for something....and he thought if he just kept working on his religion, he could fix himself?

I know, how could he keep making mistakes, and then going to repent and think he'll be forgiven...but we are also talking about the mind of a rapist and murderer...so their "logic" could be a little different. I was thinking of it more in terms of a drug addict....who keeps trying to get clean, and then keeps slipping up because of impulse and self control.

 

[FindHG]

Just my thoughts but from a 'spiked' drink at Tempo;free ride sounds good if you're alone,look at the high fives he gave ,he's known to people. She's in his car (per LE);I see a quick blow to the face,neck ,or chest with his ham-like fist;and he has his newest victim.(forget tasers ,he doesn't need them) .He shoots down 5th to OL and feels powerful there( this is where he grew up). I also feel he knew the cottage was empty,he plans these assaults ahead and then when he finds a victim ,he's ready. Assault is out of the car;he's a big guy in a compact car. If his MO holds(Fairfax victim) He strangles her and dumps body. Just my opinion. As for the turkey vultures /or black buzzards; from studies done in Texas at the Body Farm a corpse is left in a field for 5 weeks before the vultures find it ;in hrs it is broken bones. So when the birds were seen is irrelevant .The key to his conviction is the evidence found at the site. Possibly JM's DNA on her pants ,other clothing,her shoes, phone,found with his prints; and evidence from the orange car.Just my opinion.

Sounds good to me. Thanks for sharing.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Could JLM have indeed been very into his faith? Maybe he did know what he was doing was wrong, and even felt guilty about it, could his faith have been an attempt for him to repent or even control his demands? Could he have maybe thought , albeit in a twisted way, that perhaps if he kept going to church, praying etc, that it would rid him of this evil? Maybe he felt he was possessed or something like that....or being punished for something....and he thought if he just kept working on his religion, he could fix himself?

I know, how could he keep making mistakes, and then going to repent and think he'll be forgiven...but we are also talking about the mind of a rapist and murderer...so their "logic" could be a little different. I was thinking of it more in terms of a drug addict....who keeps trying to get clean, and then keeps slipping up because of impulse and self control.

I really think JM kept the religious aspect up as just another cover so that others would see what he wanted them to see rather than see the true monster that lay within.

I don't think JM has a conscience and I also don't think he has any feelings for his victims. That is why he could easily go out and do it all over again.

Life to JM was all about him and what he felt he was entitled to do.

 

[mainemom]

Yep. That struck me too. Especially around McGrady's which is around the time she had been running, she looks like she's walking with discomfort, not so much woozy. That is where you see her tuck her phone in her back pocket or waist. We don't really know what her conversation with the bouncer there was like, but she must have maintained a brisk pace and her shoes didn't look comfortable for running. I had the same thought watching her over and over again too, so nice to know you had the same idea. It'd be interesting to know where along the mall a bus going back to The Corner area near her new off-campus housing may have been? If she may have been heading for a bus to try to catch one back? It would make some sense possibly that it may have been her instinct, given that she'd helped a girl who needed help onto a bus, according to her own tweets.]

(BBM) I just had a thought after watching the video again. Perhaps this has already been discussed. The funny way she is walking..... it reminds me of how girls walk when they really have to pee and are having a hard time holding it. Perhaps that is why she went up to the McGrady's bouncer? Maybe she asked him, "Can I please just use the bathroom?" and he denied her. Maybe she then set off desperately searching for a bathroom she could use?

 

[FindHG]

Well, it is good that you know the background of the two men, which obviously I did not know. That does bring the report into a different perspective for me. If they were theorizing, knowing who they are and that they are well-experienced makes the theories more valuable than if they were just a couple of reporters giving a "sensationalizing" view of a crime scene.

I do absolutely agree that LE would share things with them that they wouldn't share with regular reporters.

I think we all have to be careful about believing that "sensationalizing" aspect of things, if we are trying to get a realistic view of what could have happened. Agreed? :thinking: I will have to do a better job of knowing who I'm talking about in future.

Thank you very much for filling me in on this.

This is interesting, not having seen the segment yet, and both you and Foxfire have a good eye for detail. What stands out credibly to both of you from this report. And if you happened to have caught the Wolf Blitzer and Coy Barefoot broadcast, especially the second half of it? Sorry to impose.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Though we will never know what JM said to Hannah that got her to go with him, she willingly did. That she was inebriated, tired and confused could have contributed to the situation. We also know that JM did make a stop at Temp, pay for two drinks, and after that the description of Hannah was quite different from what we saw of her on tape. Even with the grainy quality, hard to see footage, it's clear she did not need help walking, much less standing. The checker, "Abby" states that she was very drunk and looked like she needed support at about 1:40AM. But still, we can't say for sure, she was slipped anything. Just looks likely to me.

But regardless, I think that given that condition described, she could have dozed off, passed out, or zoned out when she got into the car. Again, we are just presuming that she was offered a ride and that the Corner was where she wanted to go,but we'll never know for sure. Though highly unlikely, IMO, it is possible that she agreed to go out with JM for some recreational sex. Where we draw the line in terms of reasonable doubt at all, is that she did not agree to be left as a corpse where she was. Any injuries, beatings, whatever damages the ME can substantiate from the autopsy are pretty clearly inflicted on her.

But without anything to connect JM to where Hannah was found, to doing harm, there is a difficulty in proving in a court that she did go off willingly for whatever reason with JM. Lots of drunk girls get picked up by guys and go off doing things they would not have done in their right minds, or maybe they would have.

The ride story has some credence, given that she was on her way somewhere in the area of the Corner which LE pretty much has established from her texts and calls with people. LE seems to be sure enough to say she was at the Mall due to getting lost and they have said they have a lot of texts from her phone. So running into JM and a ride offer would have been like godsend to her. Also, with no purse and just planning to stay around the corner, tight pants on, she may not have brought her UVA ID or any wallet with money or cards. She would not have needed them if she were staying right in the area where she lived and was partying. If that was the case, she couldn't just get a ride with a cab without some hassle. I also suspect her cell phone batttery died, as she was texting away and then last text at 1:06 AM?

The essential things in this case now come down to what evidence could place JM where Hannah was found and any to show he did her harm. Can't prove much of anything as to why she went with him. At best, in terms, of charges, given her condition as reported, he was taking advantage and the "Abduction with Intent to Defile" could fit, but yes, it is possible she wanted to out and "party" with him upon pick up.

Whether she went willingly or not, and we really have no evidence to even support she went willingly, it will not be an issue anyway. The minute anyone holds someone against their will they are guilty of abduction. A jury knows no one goes willingly with someone who has intentions of raping and plans to murder them.

When she realized that she was in grave danger from this beast I have no doubt she either begged him to let her go or tried to get out of the cab in order to escape what was happening to her and he held her against her will. It is obvious he did not let her go so he was in the middle of a felony abduction when he murdered Hannah. Imo, the jury will get it with no problem and I do think at some point the charges will be upgraded to murder. They are in no rush to start the clock ticking on the murder charges.

It is very logical that Hannah had been abducted by JM and that is why her remains were found after JM murdered her during that abduction.

 

[ThinkHard]

To the issue of whether Hannah was drugged, I believe she was for no other reason than JM taking her back to Tempo and forking over $7 for her beer.

He risked being seen in public with her. He paid with a card that leaves a paper trail. I don't know the average price of a beer in a bar in Charlottesville, but $7 is pretty pricey where I live (Puget Sound area.) JM apparently didn't have money to burn.

There had to be a strong motivation for JM's behavior. It was risky and pricey. The only reason that makes sense to me, is so that he could put something in Hannah's drink to incapacitate her. He certainly didn't do it to enjoy friendly conversation and get to know Hannah as a person.

MOO

ETA- if JM was going to taze Hannah, why take her to Tempo at all? He could have done that right there on the mall.

Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2

The beer price in not such a big thing for Cville. Cville is surrounded by vineyard, and over the past 10 years or so micro breweries have been popping up like crazy.

I don't know how familiar you are with the microbrew scene but though you can certainly find coors and bud and yuengling (which would be about 4.50/5 for draft at most places in Cville), many of the beers are devils back bone, founders, lagunitas, bells, sixpoint, star hill, etc etc etc. some local brews some from micro brews around the country. The point is, that it is that its far more popular to drink these type of beers in that area, then a 3.50 lager by bud or coors.

I worked in a Cville rest/ bar with over two dozen taps, 5 years ago....and the beer scene in Cville was far ahead of the micro brew scene in New England at that time (part of it, is the west coast breweries where able to get distribution to that part of the country before it made it up north...and Cali/ Pacific Northwest was sort of the rebirth of the microbrews).

I'm only pointing this out because, I think people place too much weight on the price of the beer he bought her...and I think for the area....and the culture...it wasnt so much of an anomaly as the price tag might make people think.

 

[ILOKAL]

jbowman55, actually I did stay up until 2AM to watch the 'Searching for Clues' segment on OTR Greta@Fox News. It is amazing to me how two people can watch the same investigative report and come away with completely different opinions, observations, and views. Wished they would post the link for the video of the OTR segment to get other websleuther's views..

Ted Williams; the AA investigative reporter in the segment is an experienced retired DC homicide Investigator and now an active Defense Attorney.. Griff Jenkins, is a Washington-based correspondent for FNC, producer, and investigative reporter for <11 years>. GJ produced the recent segment on OTR; 'Inside the home of Jesse Matthew' where he found a picture possibly indicating drug residue that was missed by CSI--> http://video.foxnews.com/v/38517240...thew/?playlist_id=1849476279001#sp=show-clips

Both T Williams and G Jenkins, have been in VA for weeks now.. Being retired LE, ACPD/CPD investigators would likely share info with TW that they wouldn't with others. JMO

jbowman55, although we all look through same eyes, we see entirely different things...and that's a good thing...imo

Just want to say after having watched and heard Griff Jenkins cover this case, he does not do a good job reporting. That's just my opinion, but his eleven years of experience don't show. He needs to go behind the desk and stay there, IMO!

 

[cluciano63]

LE has to be able to prove he murdered Hannah, and perhaps raped her. Defense can suggest alternatives without proof needed, more or less. Imo, if there is a trial, it may be suggested that Hannah went with JM willingly, maybe even that she knew him in some way, and that he dropped her off somewhere. They do not have to prove any of that. LE has to be able to prove that he was at the spot where she was found, that her remains and/or clothing show he had physical, malicious contact with her and killed her. Imo, what evidence appeared where is vital, since it is a known fact he was with her and walked away with her, presumably ending up in his car. Being with her is not proof of murder nor is his background unless allowed by a judge. Just have to wait and see, Imo. It will depend a lot on actual scientific evidence, and how incriminating it is. JM's DNA from sweat, for example, on her top, does not spell murder, while semen on her clothing tells a whole other story. Jmo

 

[Daae]

This picture shows that LJM's car is a 2-door sedan with the passenger seat moved forward while the drivers seat is adjusted way back to allow for LJM's large frame. Hannah had long legs. IMO he put her in the back seat. The passenger side door handle in this model is way forward on the door (1998 Chrysler coupe) and therefore almost impossible to open from the back.

 

[FindHG]

(BBM) I just had a thought after watching the video again. Perhaps this has already been discussed. The funny way she is walking..... it reminds me of how girls walk when they really have to pee and are having a hard time holding it. Perhaps that is why she went up to the McGrady's bouncer? Maybe she asked him, "Can I please just use the bathroom?" and he denied her. Maybe she then set off desperately searching for a bathroom she could use?

That makes sense, to me too.

 

[Emaa]

Someone had posted about the passenger seat being forward. We don't know if it was like that when impounded or if LE moved it up in their search.

 

[ThinkHard]

Perhaps LE found large plastic tie wraps, the kind they use in place of hand cuffs . These are used to bind feet and hands. Also, duct tape or her shoes would reveal a possible crime of abduction took place.

For some reason, I just do not think he bound his victims. I think he relied on incapacitating them, and his brute strength. I think ties would have been difficult to hide from others who might get in his car...I also think it shows a level a premeditation that I just don't think he has. I do not think he is the type of rapist/murderer who has a plan per se. I think he seizes opportunities when they come across his path...and I think something about the vulnerability of the women...excites him. I think he happened to drive past MH that night, and once she was in his cab his impulses went crazy. I think its similar with Hannah. Maybe he always had date drugs, and maybe he knew some places....but I don't think he left the house on the day/night either girl went missing knowing he was going to murder that night.

 

[ThinkHard]

I laughed @ Dave Matthews! lol Sorry.

Ha ha, well Dave Matthews does live in/just outside Cville.