Hannah Graham: The Search - #3

[avhuebner]

Much appreciated, tough to guess where she may be without having context for the area.

One look at Google Maps and you'll see what I mean...

 

[Foxfire]

This publication shared by Foxfire is a MUST READ!

Ugh. I cannot get it to copy and paste.

It is the FBI booklet on Serial Killers that has been referenced a couple of times just shortly up above.

I really recommend reading it.

<Respectfully snipped for Focus>

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

FBI - Serial Murder 09/2005 Symposium
Behavioral Analysis Unit-2
National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime
Critical Incident Response Group
Federal Bureau of Investigation

 

[FindHG]

Wild guess, I think he fancied himself a predator in the woods. Notice how the jumpsuit diminishes him, he prefers naked with a blanket. A place he could run around, pounce, scream, scare, (this is awful to think. i hurt for the families of these young women), just the notion of it.

 

[jamicat]

This leads me to believe he is no stranger to the woods and can probably navigate all the logging roads, etc with no problem. I have lived in the Valley for most of my life and I could be dropped just about anywhere and use the mountains to guide myself home and I am not a hunter or fisherman.
I wish we had a better time frame. IMO, that could be very telling in where he went.

It has been definitely stated that JM is very skilled in the woods and knows his way around there. He likes to fish. He also is highly unlikely to obey boundaries and would go as he pleases, regardless of whether it's private or public property. So absolutely, he knows the area well. The only thing on LE's side is that he does tend to be careless, reckless in the way he operates, so he might not have hidden Hannah's body carefully.

It's important that LE get a time line on JM from when he left Tempo so they get an idea of how much time he was away from others and could be hiding the body. Also, it's very possible that he may have done a cursory dump that early morning, as he might have been tired, needed some equipment, needed some light, and gone home, then gone back to to do a more thorough job. So any time unaccounted for, especially a large chunk of time would be suspect. If he were gone, say, all day Sunday, that would be something to consider, But then it would mean transporting a cadever in his car, and the dogs would have gone wild on that scent when exposed to it. If the cadaver dogs did not react to his car, it probably means he just left the body where he killed her and then carried or dragged without using the car to transport the body anywhere.

 

[jamicat]

I feel she's on private property, just like MH. LE must also think this...the aerial search may show something that's on private land, and all of that footage started being looked at yesterday. So it may turn something up.
It's strange to me that this search has turned up zilch. I thought they might find Alexis Murphy, too....I guess its not over, and there is still the aerial footage to sift through...

I just don't know what the next step is if they don't find her. Does anyone?

I had forgotten that AM has also not been found. What kind of search efforts were made for her? Was there a lot of publicity about it? Someone like JM would certainly be interested in what areas LE searches , what isn't searched, where the gaps are. Very valuable info to someone like him.

If Hannah is not found, the State has to move forward with what info they have. I would think they would also be looking at the other cases where there is suspicion of his involvement. Without Hannah's body, and with MH's and with evidentary DNA matches, the MH case might well end up being stronger.

The search outcome is very important for LE. It could determine whether this becomes a back burner case or the main event to put JM away.

 

[human]

Wild guess, I think he fancied himself a predator in the woods. Notice how the jumpsuit diminishes him, he prefers naked with a blanket. A place he could run around, pounce, scream, scare, (this is awful to think. i hurt for the parents of these young women), just the notion of it.

Interesting.observation!

In all of his pics, he looks kind of cute and sweet.

On the tarmac with his dreds covering his face, he looks like an evil predator.

Maybe he is like Dorian Gray and the exterior is falling away and the interior is oozing out.

 

[Appalachiagirl]

If I were JM, somewhat drunk, driving around in my sketchy car in the middle of the night with a body or kidnap victim, there is NO way I would drive east or north out of cville proper. Way too populated. I would definitely be driving south or west.
But this is VA. Trespassing on peoples' private farms is a serious crime. Especially livestock farms. If I saw someone trespassing on my posted private property, my livestock farm, I could legally shoot them dead. Cville is pretty urban but as soon as you leave the city, it is the rural south. One doesn't just simply traipse around some random farm. I know this. Most everyone from this area knows this. There are some scary rednecks around here. JM would know this too. And even the larger farms have cameras, farmhands patrolling the property or even camping in the fields (coyotes are bad this year), locked gates, etc.
This is why I think he had a predetermined place where he knew, without a doubt, he would not be seen.
This is all just my opinion, of course.

 

[FindHG]

<Respectfully snipped for Focus>

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

FBI - Serial Murder 09/2005 Symposium
Behavioral Analysis Unit-2
National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime
Critical Incident Response Group
Federal Bureau of Investigation

Myth: All Serial killers are insane or are evil geniuses.

Another myth that exists is that serial killers have either a debilitating mental condition, or they are extremely clever and intelligent.

As serial killers continue to offend without being captured, they can become empowered, feeling they will never be identified. As the series continues, the killers may begin to take shortcuts when committing their crimes. This often causes the killers to take more chances, leading to identification by law enforcement. It is not that serial killers want to get caught; they feel that they can&#8217;t get caught.

Causality can be defined as a complex process based on biological, social, and environmental factors. In addition to these factors, individuals have the ability to choose to engage in certain behaviors. The collective outcome of all of these influences separates individual behavior from generic human behavior. Since it is not possible to identify all of the factors that influence normal human behavior, it similarly is not possible to identify all of the factors that influence an individual to become a serial murderer.

Human beings are in a constant state of development from the moment of conception until death. Behavior is affected by stimulation received and processed by the central nervous system. Neurobiologists believe that our nervous systems are environmentally sensitive, thereby allowing individual nervous systems to be shaped throughout a lifetime.

There is no generic template for a serial killer.

&#8226; Serial killers are driven by their own unique motives or reasons.

The interpersonal traits include glibness, superficial charm, a grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, and the manipulation of others. The affective traits include a lack of remorse and/or guilt, shallow affect, a lack of empathy, and failure to accept responsibility. The lifestyle behaviors include stimulation-seeking behavior, impulsivity, irresponsibility, parasitic orientation, and a lack of realistic life goals. The anti-social behaviors include poor behavioral controls, early childhood behavior problems, juvenile delinquency, revocation of conditional release, and criminal versatility. The combination of these individual personality traits, interpersonal styles, and socially deviant lifestyles are the framework of psychopathy and can manifest themselves differently in individual psychopaths.

xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[human]

It has been definitely stated that JM is very skilled in the woods and knows his way around there. He likes to fish. He also is highly unlikely to obey boundaries and would go as he pleases, regardless of whether it's private or public property. So absolutely, he knows the area well. The only thing on LE's side is that he does tend to be careless, reckless in the way he operates, so he might not have hidden Hannah's body carefully.

It's important that LE get a time line on JM from when he left Tempo so they get an idea of how much time he was away from others and could be hiding the body. Also, it's very possible that he may have done a cursory dump that early morning, as he might have been tired, needed some equipment, needed some light, and gone home, then gone back to to do a more thorough job. So any time unaccounted for, especially a large chunk of time would be suspect. If he were gone, say, all day Sunday, that would be something to consider, But then it would mean transporting a cadever in his car, and the dogs would have gone wild on that scent when exposed to it. If the cadaver dogs did not react to his car, it probably means he just left the body where he killed her and then carried or dragged without using the car to transport the body anywhere.

If he did not wash his clothes, there could be plenty of death evidence on them.

And could there not be death evidence from shedding it in his car?

I mean like cadaravine.

 

[SteveP]

i don't understand how someone as simple-minded as JM supposedly is could hide hannah so well.

He may not have hidden her so well. Just from following cases here over the past couple years or so, I have come to realize that you can search and search and search, but without a really good idea of the specific small area to be looking, odds of finding a body are not very good. IMO, more often than not, it is a confession or a really good tip that leads searchers to a body. Without either of those, if a body is found, it is usually just because someone stumbles upon remains, usually months or years later. It took 3 years to find Holly Bobo, by a hunter finally, and she was found very near to where she disappeared and in very close proximity to land owned by one of her alleged killers. It took a confession from Kelli Bordeaux's killer who actually led a PI to the direct location of her body. She had been missing for two years and there had been very many searches. She, however, was on private land that had not been able to be searched previously. Many are never found. Brittanee Drexel and Lauren Spierer have never been found, despite very much publicity and very many searches over several years. I sometimes think people have a hard time grasping how difficult it would be to find a body. We all have probably misplaced our keys or remote or something at home, and literally turned the house upside down looking for it. Figure an average size house is 2000 square feet. Now look at the 8-mile area that LE has been focusing on in the search for Hannah. That is a little over 223 million square feet, or almost a quarter of a billion square feet. The odds of finding her without specific information are slim, and that is just assuming she is above ground and out in the open. Then throw in the likelihood that she is at least somewhat covered, if not buried, and the odds are even less. Someone with info needs to talk. JMO

 

[Bryan9]

The problem is that there are literally thousands of miles of logging roads, connecting all these places.

True enough, although LJM's clunker would be the last car I'd try to take on these roads. Were he to get stuck, he'd have a lot of explaining to do! Plus, these roads don't start until you're out of Charlottesville.

How would a criminal choose a way to get out of Cville without detection, assuming there's an unconscious/wounded person in the car and the registration/inspection stickers are bad or stolen...? I find it rather difficult to imagine such a scenario, but here goes. Bring up a map of Cville in Google Maps to see these...

My top choices:

1. Barracks Rd. (Rt 654) west... goes right by UVa, allowing perp to tell MH he was taking her back to the dorms... short section of four-lanes but quickly becomes windy, rural 2 lane road with lots of farm/gravel roads branching off and numerous additional, lightly traveled paved roads are accessible... best way to get to Earlysville without risk

2. Rt 742 (Avon St.) south (direct exit on downtown on city streets, 2 lane, short four lane section near county jail, not much traffic at night, intersects with rural section of Rt 20, allows access to Red Hill area after a short distance

Maybes:

* Rt 250 west (back streets to access from downtown, mostly 2 lane with some passing lanes) also goes right by UVa
* Rt 20 north (have to use 250 bypass for a short distance, then 2 lane, windy, but a lot of traffic)

Here are the ones I'd avoid... in no particular order...

* Monticello Ave to Rt 20 south (Monticello Ave out of town has a lot of traffic... 2 lane mostly except for a short distance around the I64 underpass, windy road to the south... better to take Avon
* Rt 250 east (have to use busy four-lane Pantops Rd or I64 to access, lot of traffic even at night... speed traps
* 5th St. to Rt 631 south (have to use Ridge St./5th St which is four lane, and goes by the Albemarle County police station... I travel this route daily and frequently see police cars)
* Hydraulic Rd to 743 north (743 is 2 lane and really windy, but you have to use heavily traveled four lane roads to get to it)

Cville websleuths, any more? Thoughts?

P.S. (added): When I posted this, I hadn't seen Appalachia Girl's post (#249) making much the same point. Would like to hear from more area residents...

 

[FindHG]

True enough, although LJM's clunker would be the last car I'd try to take on these roads. Were he to get stuck, he'd have a lot of explaining to do! Plus, these roads don't start until you're out of Charlottesville.

How would a criminal choose a way to get out of Cville without detection, assuming there's an unconscious/wounded person in the car and the registration/inspection stickers are bad or stolen...? I find it rather difficult to imagine such a scenario, but here goes. Bring up a map of Cville in Google Maps to see these...

My top choices:

1. Barracks Rd. (Rt 654) west... goes right by UVa, allowing perp to tell MH he was taking her back to the dorms... short section of four-lanes but quickly becomes windy, rural 2 lane road with lots of farm/gravel roads branching off and numerous additional, lightly traveled paved roads are accessible... best way to get to Earlysville without risk

2. Rt 742 (Avon St.) south (direct exit on downtown on city streets, 2 lane, short four lane section near county jail, not much traffic at night, intersects with rural section of Rt 20, allows access to Red Hill area after a short distance

Maybes:

* Rt 250 west (back streets to access from downtown, mostly 2 lane with some passing lanes) also goes right by UVa
* Rt 20 north (have to use 250 bypass for a short distance, then 2 lane, windy, but a lot of traffic)

Here are the ones I'd avoid... in no particular order...

* Monticello Ave to Rt 20 south (Monticello Ave out of town has a lot of traffic... 2 lane mostly except for a short distance around the I64 underpass, windy road to the south... better to take Avon
* Rt 250 east (have to use busy four-lane Pantops Rd or I64 to access, lot of traffic even at night... speed traps
* 5th St. to Rt 631 south (have to use Ridge St./5th St which is four lane, and goes by the Albemarle County police station... I travel this route daily and frequently see police cars)
* Hydraulic Rd to 743 north (743 is 2 lane and really windy, but you have to use heavily traveled four lane roads to get to it)

Cville websleuths, any more? Thoughts?

Great thinking!

 

[jbowman55]

If I were JM, somewhat drunk, driving around in my sketchy car in the middle of the night with a body or kidnap victim, there is NO way I would drive east or north out of cville proper. Way too populated. I would definitely be driving south or west.
But this is VA. Trespassing on peoples' private farms is a serious crime. Especially livestock farms. If I saw someone trespassing on my posted private property, my livestock farm, I could legally shoot them dead. Cville is pretty urban but as soon as you leave the city, it is the rural south. One doesn't just simply traipse around some random farm. I know this. Most everyone from this area knows this. There are some scary rednecks around here. JM would know this too. And even the larger farms have cameras, farmhands patrolling the property or even camping in the fields (coyotes are bad this year), locked gates, etc.
This is why I think he had a predetermined place where he knew, without a doubt, he would not be seen.
This is all just my opinion, of course.

This is a good post. Thanks.

Lots of conversation about remote areas, Schuyler/Walton's Mtn I am slightly familiar with because I've stayed a couple of times in Howardsville, which is right down the road.

There's an old, abandoned church in Howardsville. Who would step up and search a structure like that? What about old packhouses? There are thousands of them, leftovers from the days when tobacco was grown on nearly every spare spot of ground. What about all the tumbledown shacks that litter the countryside all over the South, where the custom used to be that the employer of a farm hand would furnish a place to live as part of the farm hand's compensation? Closed and boarded-up country stores and service stations, 150-year-old uninhabited farm houses, jeez, I could go on and on. I do keep returning to him having a place that isn't outside, though, because I think he's learned from past experience that he needs more privacy than outside locations can offer. So old churches, stores, packhouses, camper trailers, barns, stables, abandoned factories, etc. seem more likely to me.

I took a look at Saddle Hollow Farm outside Crozet yesterday on Google Maps. To the north of the farm, the trees just go on for miles. If HG's been hidden in a place like that, she may never be found.

Needle in a haystack.

Oh, and the one thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet in this line of conversation - what about JM's ENDURANCE? As big and strong as he is, how long could he walk through the woods, up and down hills, through ditches, over fences, carrying a 130-pound uncooperative woman?

 

[Appalachiagirl]

True enough, although LJM's clunker would be the last car I'd try to take on these roads. Were he to get stuck, he'd have a lot of explaining to do! Plus, these roads don't start until you're out of Charlottesville.

How would a criminal choose a way to get out of Cville without detection, assuming there's an unconscious/wounded person in the car and the registration/inspection stickers are bad or stolen...? I find it rather difficult to imagine such a scenario, but here goes. Bring up a map of Cville in Google Maps to see these...

My top choices:

1. Barracks Rd. (Rt 654) west... goes right by UVa, allowing perp to tell MH he was taking her back to the dorms... short section of four-lanes but quickly becomes windy, rural 2 lane road with lots of farm/gravel roads branching off and numerous additional, lightly traveled paved roads are accessible... best way to get to Earlysville without risk

2. Rt 742 (Avon St.) south (direct exit on downtown on city streets, 2 lane, short four lane section near county jail, not much traffic at night, intersects with rural section of Rt 20, allows access to Red Hill area after a short distance

Maybes:

* Rt 250 west (back streets to access from downtown, mostly 2 lane with some passing lanes) also goes right by UVa
* Rt 20 north (have to use 250 bypass for a short distance, then 2 lane, windy, but a lot of traffic)

Here are the ones I'd avoid... in no particular order...

* Monticello Ave to Rt 20 south (Monticello Ave out of town has a lot of traffic... 2 lane mostly except for a short distance around the I64 underpass, windy road to the south... better to take Avon
* Rt 250 east (have to use busy four-lane Pantops Rd or I64 to access, lot of traffic even at night... speed traps
* 5th St. to Rt 631 south (have to use Ridge St./5th St which is four lane, and goes by the Albemarle County police station... I travel this route daily and frequently see police cars)
* Hydraulic Rd to 743 north (743 is 2 lane and really windy, but you have to use heavily traveled four lane roads to get to it)

Cville websleuths, any more? Thoughts?

I would definitely take Rt 250 west. And from there, the possibilities are endless.
Barracks to Earlysville rd is also a possibility because after the airport, it's like a ghost town.

 

[Nosy]

Several people have mentioned the Blue Ridge pkwy. I went to a game in cville 2 weeks ago and we took the blue ridge pkwy home. The parkway has entrance and exit booths during the day to take payment. I would think there are cameras on those booths at night. I doubt JL mathew would want to take that route although there are lots of hidden trails up there.

 

[human]

This is a good post. Thanks.

Lots of conversation about remote areas, Schuyler/Walton's Mtn I am slightly familiar with because I've stayed a couple of times in Howardsville, which is right down the road.

There's an old, abandoned church in Howardsville. Who would step up and search a structure like that? What about old packhouses? There are thousands of them, leftovers from the days when tobacco was grown on nearly every spare spot of ground. What about all the tumbledown shacks that litter the countryside all over the South, where the custom used to be that the employer of a farm hand would furnish a place to live as part of the farm hand's compensation? Closed and boarded-up country stores and service stations, 150-year-old uninhabited farm houses, jeez, I could go on and on. I do keep returning to him having a place that isn't outside, though, because I think he's learned from past experience that he needs more privacy than outside locations can offer. So old churches, stores, packhouses, camper trailers, barns, stables, abandoned factories, etc. seem more likely to me.

I took a look at Saddle Hollow Farm outside Crozet yesterday on Google Maps. To the north of the farm, the trees just go on for miles. If HG's been hidden in a place like that, she may never be found.

Needle in a haystack.

Oh, and the one thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet in this line of conversation - what about JM's ENDURANCE? As big and strong as he is, how long could he walk through the woods, up and down hills, through ditches, over fences, carrying a 130-pound uncooperative woman?

Aargh!!

Yes, I live in a different state and searched for a missing child.

Looking for a needle in a haystack is much much easier. The haystack is finite.

Evil!

 

[FindHG]

Oh, and the one thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet in this line of conversation - what about JM's ENDURANCE? As big and strong as he is, how long could he walk through the woods, up and down hills, through ditches, over fences, carrying a 130-pound uncooperative woman?

He walked 1.3 miles to the end of the field where Morgan Harrington was found.

 

[Appalachiagirl]

Several people have mentioned the Blue Ridge pkwy. I went to a game in cville 2 weeks ago and we took the blue ridge pkwy home. The parkway has entrance and exit booths during the day to take payment. I would think there are cameras on those booths at night. I doubt JL mathew would want to take that route although there are lots of hidden trails up there.

Are you sure it's the Blue Ridge Parkway and not Skyline Drive? To my knowledge, there are gates at the Parkway entrances, but never a booth requiring fees. The gates are just to close the Parkway during the winter.

 

[MJPeony]

He may not have hidden her so well. Just from following cases here over the past couple years or so, I have come to realize that you can search and search and search, but without a really good idea of the specific small area to be looking, odds of finding a body are not very good. IMO, more often than not, it is a confession or a really good tip that leads searchers to a body. Without either of those, if a body is found, it is usually just because someone stumbles upon remains, usually months or years later. It took 3 years to find Holly Bobo, and she was found very near to where she disappeared and in very close proximity to land owned by one of her alleged killers. It took a confession from Kelli Bordeaux's killer who actually led a PI to the direct location of her body. She had been missing for two years and there had been very many searches. She, however, was on private land that had not been able to be searched previously. Many are never found. Brittanee Drexel and Lauren Spierer have never been found, despite very much publicity and very many searches over several years. I sometimes think people have a hard time grasping how difficult it would be to find a body. We all have probably misplaced our keys or remote or something at home, and literally turned the house upside down looking for it. Figure an average size house is 2000 square feet. Now look at the 8-mile area that LE has been focusing on in the search for Hannah. That is a little over 223 million square feet, or almost a quarter of a billion square feet. The odds of finding her without specific information are slim, and that is just assuming she is above ground and out in the open. Then throw in the likelihood that she is at least somewhat covered, if not buried, and the odds are even less. Someone with info needs to talk. JMO

BBM. This. ^^^ I believe very strongly that JM put HG somewhere that he has been before. Even if only a few times. I don't think it's a regular hang-out of his/his buddies. That would be far too risky. But I believe she is in a general area that is familiar to him, and that it's a rural area. Not a dumpster, not a storage shed, etc. Even knowing general areas that he is familiar with would help tremendously for LE to narrow down the search area.

People who know him need to help LE.

I imagine it would be excruciatingly difficult for them to reach out to LE- while most likely thinking he is surely innocent. But if he IS innocent, then that truth will come out. Telling LE everything you know about JM is not being disloyal. In fact, information shared about him could help exonerate him- if he did nothing wrong then there is nothing about LE understanding his personal familiar areas that would convict him in and of itself.

Personal information about JM will not be what convicts JM. JM's personal actions will be what would convict JM. And if he did nothing, then great. A human being- a family's daughter is likely dead and missing. If she was murdered by JM, then even friends and family would surely want to find HG's body. Surely, surely no friend or family member wants to turn a blind eye to a dead girl b/c of fear that their dear LJ is the perpetrator. They can- and will certainly need to- mourn that part later. In the meantime, there is nothing to fear by sharing all that is known about this man.

 

[Bryan9]

Several people have mentioned the Blue Ridge pkwy. I went to a game in cville 2 weeks ago and we took the blue ridge pkwy home. The parkway has entrance and exit booths during the day to take payment. I would think there are cameras on those booths at night. I doubt JL mathew would want to take that route although there are lots of hidden trails up there.

Nosy, you're thinking of Skyline Drive, which runs through Shenandoah National Park. The Blue Ridge Parkway begins at the southern end of the park and ends at the entry to Great Smokey Mnts. National Park, a distance of 469 miles. There are no booths at the northern entrance to the Blue Ridge Parkway.