Hannah Graham: The Search - #4

[FindHG]

Hannah Graham search enters 2nd month
http://www.wtop.com/120/3723997/Hannah-Graham-search-enters-2nd-month

 

[jamicat]

Anchorage Farm was very much in the news investigations when Morgan Harrington disappeared. Their daughter Jenny Bass had planned a "7 mile sleepover party" one week after Morgan was at the concert, Morgan Harrington would already have been dead on their property. Anchorage Farm / David Bass was in the process of subdividing a major parcel of land, she was found on parcel 41(a). How Mr. Bass missed the birds and smell of a dead body for 3 months is beyond me. He had to tend to livestock daily. I think it's all very strange. Lastly did JLM have any connection to David Bass?

I hope the police have done a thorough search of Anchorage Farms, especially since one body was already found there.

BBM Yes. Anchorage Farms was one of the first places searched, and for the reason you have given, the search was likely very thorough. Though rumors that there are, David Bass said he did not know JM nor did he feel anyone he ever saw resembled the police sketch. It's a large farms, and no one went near enough to the body to smell it and birds tend to cluster around farms periodically. A lot of other dead animals in the winter. No. He missed her and said outright that he could not adequately search his own farm, nor could many with properties like his. I think you need the dogs or you need to get lucky. I can tell you that in our area which does not have the untamed terraine of Charlottesville, things have been missed on police searches.

I have no idea how long a scent remains on the ground for a cadaver dog to hit on it. If he had the body on ground at a place and then threw herdown a ravine that is not accessible without a lot of special equipment and would take weeks of concerted effort to search up and down it, or he dumped her in some lake with weights or special puncturing, it is going to take luck to find it. Dredging all the lakes, ponds, rivers, streams in the area would be a massive project that makes this search a child's game and would take months to do properly.

 

[Gilamon]

I wonder if someone has his clothes, the LE know it and they are trying to call that person out. He probably got rid of them after the video aired. JMO

I am having a hard time understanding why LE would be focused on his clothes. It would seem impossible, even to someone without any experience in covering up a crime, that he would not have disposed of the clothes completely. IMO the only place you would have any chance at the clothes would be in a landfill.

I also have the same feeling about search crews along the highway. It just is not possible at all, imo, that he would have stopped along a highway to do anything at all, even open a window. Yet I have seen them live and in reports focusing on main highways. I think that specific tips or evidence (maybe a ping), search dogs, or pure chance are our only shot at finding her.

One question I have is whether or not he may have been sloppy that night, and not done a great job of covering up, and then made decisions over the course of the following week (as news began to come out with the surveillance videos) to cover his tracks. If that were the case, you would not be as focused on the time gap the night, but more eyewitnesses or acquaintances that may have been around him that week. People who knew him must have been paying attention to him after the video footage came out.

 

[Gilamon]

I have no idea how long a scent remains on the ground for a cadaver dog to hit on it. If he had the body on ground at a place and then threw herdown a ravine that is not accessible without a lot of special equipment and would take weeks of concerted effort to search up and down it, or he dumped her in some lake with weights or special puncturing, it is going to take luck to find it. Dredging all the lakes, ponds, rivers, streams in the area would be a massive project that makes this search a child's game and would take months to do properly.

Chalk Mountain affords this option.

 

[jamicat]

I haven't been able to watch the PC but have followed the recent posts. I'm curious if any of you have a theory as to why LE might be not be truthful about their not having an item. Last week, a very reliable source told me they had found an item that LE said, today, they did NOT have. I can't think of any reason for my source to lie about it. I suppose maybe it turned out not to be related to the case, but it would have been a seriously strange coincidence. LE has a strategy for sure, but I'm now very curious what the truth is and why they might be hiding it...?

Yes, there have been cases when LE has deliberately given wrong info. In this case, some of the things attributed to LE, however, has been from other sources. I don't think LE in their press conferences or any direct statments, for instance, eliminated the "dreadlocks guy" on the tape. I checked that one myself. Some news source came to that conclusion and then it started getting stated as fact from LE. It was not.

The clothing, is a whole other thing. LE did state they found clothing, the quotes are right there. but they did not say exactly what they found. The implication to me was they did find what he wore while he was with Hannah, but now it appears that some of those articles of clothing are still on the search list. Frankly, any discarded clothing would be on the search list, IMO. Searchers have been told to take it all, and LE would sort through the finds and make their determination as to whether it's pertinant for further checking. Also, I get a niggling memory that one of the mall witnesses said something about JM changing clothes that Friday/Sunday, so it is possible that LE has some clothing items
he wore, and not others. They did get bags of what they said was evidence and they did say they got his clothing. It is disappointing that LE is still searching for what seems to be what JM was likely wearing while with Hannah, as those items would be the most likely to have valuable evidence on it. A shirt he wore earlier that day or late Friday night is not as likely to have that kind of evidence, though possible if he touched the articles while dirty from his deed. Or he may have changed into other clothes he kept in the car and LE has those items. It seems to me LE has tried to keep their statements truthful in this case, though clearly they are not telling a whole lot of the story (if they have that info).

In this case, I think we are getting more info, because the focus is very strongly on the search. LE is putting a lot of resources on it and they really want and need the public to help them find Hannah. So they want any and every possible bit of info from everyone. I don' tthink this search will continue as long as it's been going on, so the clock is ticking on them.

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo I suppose LE has to consider that JM left his clothing at the same place he left Hannah if they were torn, stained, etc. and if he carried other clothing in his car. So they want to make sure to alert the public in case they see a bundle of clothing that might otherwise be ignored during a hike or when walking their property.

 

[Gilamon]

I have no idea how long a scent remains on the ground for a cadaver dog to hit on it. If he had the body on ground at a place and then threw herdown a ravine that is not accessible without a lot of special equipment and would take weeks of concerted effort to search up and down it, or he dumped her in some lake with weights or special puncturing, it is going to take luck to find it. Dredging all the lakes, ponds, rivers, streams in the area would be a massive project that makes this search a child's game and would take months to do properly.

Chalk Mountain affords this option.

 

[jamicat]

Chalk Mountain affords this option.

Probably a lot of such places in the area. The drawback in doing that is one is taking a risk that you throw something and it ends up landing in plain view. He may have waited until sunrise to have disposed of the body too. Even with a head light and being familiar and experienced with the terrain and area, walking around in the dark is very risky.. He'd want natural light, I would think. Though I guess he didn't do much in terms of hiding Morgan's body. I'm sure LE has someone watching the carrion bird clusters and directing searches when they have spotted any of those. I wish we knew when JM was first seen again that Saturday. I get the feeling LE does not have good info in this regard. Or when he was seen by anyone the next day and any periods of time unaccounted for that weekend, not just those critical hours after he left with Hannah. That could really help in the search. That it's been so generalized in area with just that standard radius and certain key spots being the search area makes me believe that they don't have good info on JM that weekend. Maybe JM's phone's pings will give some targeted areas. It's really difficult to focus in a generalized search especially over time.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

I am having a hard time understanding why LE would be focused on his clothes. It would seem impossible, even to someone without any experience in covering up a crime, that he would not have disposed of the clothes completely. IMO the only place you would have any chance at the clothes would be in a landfill.

I also have the same feeling about search crews along the highway. It just is not possible at all, imo, that he would have stopped along a highway to do anything at all, even open a window. Yet I have seen them live and in reports focusing on main highways. I think that specific tips or evidence (maybe a ping), search dogs, or pure chance are our only shot at finding her.

One question I have is whether or not he may have been sloppy that night, and not done a great job of covering up, and then made decisions over the course of the following week (as news began to come out with the surveillance videos) to cover his tracks. If that were the case, you would not be as focused on the time gap the night, but more eyewitnesses or acquaintances that may have been around him that week. People who knew him must have been paying attention to him after the video footage came out.

Hi Gilamon! JM allegedly worked at the hospital after Hannah disappeared. His co-workers said he ate lunch alone that week. He could have disposed of his clothes in the hospital dumpster as that was where he was supposed to be and it may not have drawn attention since he was employed at the hospital. I occasionally took a bag of trash to the dumpster at the school I worked at. (I wasn't disposing of anything nefarious, just had a full can at home.) Anyway, I wonder if the hospital has CCTV cameras and if LE has checked on this possibility. JMO

 

[jamicat]

I am having a hard time understanding why LE would be focused on his clothes. It would seem impossible, even to someone without any experience in covering up a crime, that he would not have disposed of the clothes completely. IMO the only place you would have any chance at the clothes would be in a landfill.

I also have the same feeling about search crews along the highway. It just is not possible at all, imo, that he would have stopped along a highway to do anything at all, even open a window. Yet I have seen them live and in reports focusing on main highways. I think that specific tips or evidence (maybe a ping), search dogs, or pure chance are our only shot at finding her.

One question I have is whether or not he may have been sloppy that night, and not done a great job of covering up, and then made decisions over the course of the following week (as news began to come out with the surveillance videos) to cover his tracks. If that were the case, you would not be as focused on the time gap the night, but more eyewitnesses or acquaintances that may have been around him that week. People who knew him must have been paying attention to him after the video footage came out.

Perps don't always dispose of their clothes worn while doing their nasties. Many a perp has left that as evidence for LE to find. LE did search his car, has his car and searched his apartment. Unfortunately, JM was in the middle of a move, so he certainly had belongings elsewhere, and LE was not watching him and his roommates during that search. They out and out stated that they did not know when JM left during that process. Also, the search for the apartment came after they were searching the car, giving JM time to gather up anything he may not have wanted found from the apartment and taking them with him. IMO that search was bungled, from the info given by LE, but it is possible we don't have the full story.

The clothes could well be at Grandma's or other relatives places, and have been washed by now, but still, evidence has been gleaned from washed clothes, and also rips and tears could be key evidence. JM also could have left things with friends, acquaintances, and maybe by specifically mentioning the items, they could peek at what they have and if they actually see a bag of muddy, dirty, bloody clothes, it could shock them into calling LE when right now they may not be interested in helping LE, feeling that JM is being treated unfairly and not believing the charges.

The search has to cover even obvious things, just in case, JM did throw something out a window or along a ditch a swale. How careless LE would look (and have been if something like that were found much later) . Also, I don't think the video footage was clear enough and the info given out about it was so confusing that it's possible no one connected it the JM that was hanging around him. The jig was up because those interviewed by LE that week knew who he was and even that he was with Hannah, but it was those eye witness accounts that validated the video footage. WG who did see Hannah at the mall and did come to LE gave info that was directly reputed by the footage, as he gave the wrong ID. SO the value of those cameras were there, but alone would not have IDed JM, IMO.

If JM had been covering his tracks after the video was released, He'd have had that nasty car of his detailed. I'm surprised that the forensic evidence from that car which LE has, has not been able to lead LE to where that car had been in the recent past in terms of mud, dirt, grass and other such samples. I thought that was a reason it was nabbed for evidence, but I guess no specifics about terrain were obtained from it to narrow search parameters. Very disappointing.

 

[jamicat]

Hi Gilamon! JM allegedly worked at the hospital after Hannah disappeared. His co-workers said he ate lunch alone that week. He could have disposed of his clothes in the hospital dumpster as that was where he was supposed to be and it may not have drawn attention since he was employed at the hospital. I occasionally took a bag of trash to the dumpster at the school I worked at. (I wasn't disposing of anything nefarious, just had a full can at home.) Anyway, I wonder if the hospital has CCTV cameras and if LE has checked on this possibility. JMO

I hope LE has checked all video footage of his work. Yes, UVAMC would have cameras in many places. Also whether he dumped his thing in the hospital dumpster or the medical waste bins would be of interest. But then he could have dumped his things in any dumpster anywhere in the area. Long gone if that's the case. Not going to be going through landfills for clothes, a body maybe, not clothers.

 

[sixecho]

Perps don't always dispose of their clothes worn while doing their nasties. Many a perp has left that as evidence for LE to find. LE did search his car, has his car and searched his apartment. Unfortunately, JM was in the middle of a move, so he certainly had belongings elsewhere, and LE was not watching him and his roommates during that search. They out and out stated that they did not know when JM left during that process. Also, the search for the apartment came after they were searching the car, giving JM time to gather up anything he may not have wanted found from the apartment and taking them with him. IMO that search was bungled, from the info given by LE, but it is possible we don't have the full story.

The clothes could well be at Grandma's or other relatives places, and have been washed by now, but still, evidence has been gleaned from washed clothes, and also rips and tears could be key evidence. JM also could have left things with friends, acquaintances, and maybe by specifically mentioning the items, they could peek at what they have and if they actually see a bag of muddy, dirty, bloody clothes, it could shock them into calling LE when right now they may not be interested in helping LE, feeling that JM is being treated unfairly and not believing the charges.

The search has to cover even obvious things, just in case, JM did throw something out a window or along a ditch a swale. How careless LE would look (and have been if something like that were found much later) . Also, I don't think the video footage was clear enough and the info given out about it was so confusing that it's possible no one connected it the JM that was hanging around him. The jig was up because those interviewed by LE that week knew who he was and even that he was with Hannah, but it was those eye witness accounts that validated the video footage. WG who did see Hannah at the mall and did come to LE gave info that was directly reputed by the footage, as he gave the wrong ID. SO the value of those cameras were there, but alone would not have IDed JM, IMO.

If JM had been covering his tracks after the video was released, He'd have had that nasty car of his detailed. I'm surprised that the forensic evidence from that car which LE has, has not been able to lead LE to where that car had been in the recent past in terms of mud, dirt, grass and other such samples. I thought that was a reason it was nabbed for evidence, but I guess no specifics about terrain were obtained from it to narrow search parameters. Very disappointing.

I'm disappointed as well. JM is so sloppy. His car was a mess. It's like either he doesn't have the simplest understanding of forensics or he just doesn't care. I can't believe the car wasn't a goldmine. Also, JM had an expired car sticker yet abducted a girl in that vehicle. I would imagine that he'd want to get rid of a body as soon as possible. He could be pulled over by police at any second.

 

[teeandcee]

I'm disappointed as well. JM is so sloppy. His car was a mess. It's like either he doesn't have the simplest understanding of forensics or he just doesn't care. I can't believe the car wasn't a goldmine.

BBM. It possibly was a goldmine. We just don't know as they haven't said, which I understand from a tactical point of view but I'd sure love to know a lot more than we do. We will at trial unless there's a plea then we'll never know I guess.

 

[jamicat]

I'm disappointed as well. JM is so sloppy. His car was a mess. It's like either he doesn't have the simplest understanding of forensics or he just doesn't care. I can't believe the car wasn't a goldmine. Also, JM had an expired car sticker yet abducted a girl in that vehicle. I would imagine that he'd want to get rid of a body as soon as possible. He could be pulled over by police at any second.

LE seemed to be upbeat about all of the stuff they found in the car. It just hasn't led to a find in the search yet. Sorting out the DNA and other forensic evidence of that dumpster of a car has to be a nightmare of a job, and I'd be surprised if a complete check has been finished yet at the labs Could you just imagine?

 

[Nosy]

What a chilling idea. I hate to wonder if her body could have been disguised as medical waste, too. Does anyone know if medical waste is incinerated, or if there is a place where they can search through it.

I would think that LE has checked all of the hospital monitoring video for that timespan? They would have seen JLM entering with bags. JMO

 

[FindHG]

What up?

 

[Soulmagent]

<modsnip>

I know that alot of people are donating their time to help with the this search and its cost, I also know that people have donated food to feed the masses.
Not just on big search days either .

VA has a large number of missing and unresolved cases and this year they made a few good steps towards removing repeat offenders off the streets
I am sure that there are some parents who feel upset their child didnt get the same type of coverage or attention ,however I also believe these parents see the need to get JM off the streets.

We do not know if the over 4000 tips have yielded any evidence or not nor do we know if the searches have produced any evidence of forensic value, or not. All we know is they are looking for Clothing ,shoes and Hannah . They are not going to bump up his charge to murder until they have all the evidence they can get on him.

We also would not know if they found anything about any other missing person case until LE wanted us to know that. I am hoping that while they are looking over the area with the dogs ,they can rule out locations for other victims as well.

There are many familys who are happy this large scale search is happening and hopeful that something might reveal itself in there loved one case as well.
The list of possible JM victims should show you ,this search is not a waste of money. Just in case you still feel the same after reading about those victims, you could always head over to copley bridge today at 2 pm.

 

[Soulmagent]

It leaked that they found his car...it leaked about the DNA on Morgan connection...it leaked about the past sexual assault cases...it leaked about them interviewing Jesse for Morgan's case...it leaked about what they found in his sisters car...of course it would leak if they found anything useful during their search.

Leaked? I am pretty sure I heard all of this from MSM. Except the interveiwing Jesse for Morgan's case ,which was denied by LE .

 

[whiskers]

Yes, rifle season. I get the feeling there are more rifle hunters than bow hunters.

I agree. Now that the search is going into it's 5th week soon, I don't see a huge group of people finding anything. Like you said, more along lines of hunter or hiker.

It's a beautiful day for a hike and looking around. Had it not been for web sleuths and Twitter, I would never have known about a supposed sighting in Craigsville.

When Hannah disappeared the trees had not started to turn. Maybe a few were tinged with color, but not many. It's so sad. I just can't imagine how her parents feel.

I do too. It is like we heard the Craigsville tip and that was the end of that. And while I respect and value our local LE, they aren't known for being this tight-lipped.
Rifle hunting season will be upon us soon and IMO, it will be hunters/hikers that find anything. Tomorrow is my off day and just for the heck of it, I am going to walk along the river and train tracks through Rainbow Gap and maybe do some climbing. There are just one too many coincidences not to and the foliage is breathtaking.
One other thing. I cornered a county deputy tonight whose wife I am social with and drilled him lol. He told me to relax but to check my property and keep a lookout on the trails. Whatever that means.

 

[whiskers]

The search cannot go on forever. Maybe in a small capacity it can, but not with so many groups searching. So people who are worried that the search has continued too long, don't worry, it will probably decrease in size within the next few weeks.

As another poster stated, there are many of us who live in the area or not too far away, that are happy the search is happening. There are far too many women missing. And yes, it is a shame each one did not have such huge search efforts. The goal for LE is to obviously find Hannah, but also to piece together many clues and evidence from not only this case, but possibly many.