Happenings of December 26

[UKGuy]

One story that isn't straight on the 26th, or at least not straight with the narrative that develops after LS get's involved, is JRs insistence that the intruder did not break in by force. IOWs, JR is pushing the "inside job" theory.

JR makes sure the police know he checked all doors/windows to be sure they were locked. He also tells the silly story of breaking the window, months prior, when he supposedly forgets his house key. http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/08/clear-evidence-of-staging-basement.html

He tells police it must be an "inside job", e.g. someone with a key.

4 months later, at the police interviews, and ever since, he's pushing the intruder through the window theory.

Chrishope,
So what conclusion do you draw from your evidence?

I reckon JR is patently suggesting that JonBenet's killer was resident in the house.

This is not inconsistent from the evidence.

Your reference to a key is your assumption.

I simply think this is JR's first attempt at Not Me Guv, it was Burke!

JR knew how things looked he was simply playing along with what he thought might be LE's initial perception, he was not far wrong. Once LS arrived and the media pumped out his crazed pedophile theory, JR realized hey this this will take the heat off us, lets dump the insider theory, and so JR grew to love the media!


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[UKGuy]

The simplest explanation is Patsy didn't have time to shower and she was smart enough to come up with the story that she conveniently had last night's clothes handy. Unfortunately, she made the mistake of saying she applied her makeup the morning of JonBenet's death. No way does a clothing change and makeup application fit into the timeline.

BOESP,
mmm, so Patsy has time for makeup but not a change of clothes? That must mean she could have chosen to forego her makeup and change her clothes.

So Columbo thinks she deliberately kept her clothes on, there is nothing accidental about that decision?



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[Nom de plume]

Chrishope,
So what conclusion do you draw from your evidence?

I reckon JR is patently suggesting that JonBenet's killer was resident in the house.
This is not inconsistent from the evidence.

Your reference to a key is your assumption.

I simply think this is JR's first attempt at Not Me Guv, it was Burke!

JR knew how things looked he was simply playing along with what he thought might LE's initial perception, he was not far wrong. Once LS arrived and the media pumped out his crazed pedophile theory, JR realized hey this this will take the heat off us, lets dump the insider theory, and so JR grew to love the media!


.

BBM
Intersting take UK. Never considered that possibility before. He could have been pointing to BDI or PDI.

 

[UKGuy]

BBM
Intersting take UK. Never considered that possibility before. He could have been pointing to BDI or PDI.

Nom de plume,
OK here is an off the hook suggestion: its BDI and both JR and PR are doing their best to muddy the waters. So JR suggests what is obvious i.e. Its an inside job and PR dresses for the part?

I reckon they are covering for BR on the basis they both know at the end of the day not a lot can be proved?


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[BOESP]

BOESP,
mmm, so Patsy has time for makeup but not a change of clothes? That must mean she could have chosen to forego her makeup and change her clothes.

So Columbo thinks she deliberately kept her clothes on, there is nothing accidental about that decision?



.

My reading of what Patsy said about changing clothes is that she did, indeed, change from sleeping garments into street clothes. Her choice of street clothes was what she had worn to the White's Christmas party the night before.

Personally, I think she did keep her party clothes on all night long. I'm addressing the fact that based on what she told the cops her report of events does not fit the time line. She got up approximately 5:35 AM and she was on the telephone with the 911 dispatcher at 5:52. Add in everything she says she did, plus changing clothes and applying makeup. Nope, it doesn't add up in my opinion.

 

[UKGuy]

My reading of what Patsy said about changing clothes is that she did, indeed, change from sleeping garments into street clothes. Her choice of street clothes was what she had worn to the White's Christmas party the night before.

Personally, I think she did keep her party clothes on all night long. I'm addressing the fact that based on what she told the cops her report of events does not fit the time line. She got up approximately 5:35 AM and she was on the telephone with the 911 dispatcher at 5:52. Add in everything she says she did, plus changing clothes and applying makeup. Nope, it doesn't add up in my opinion.

BOESP,
I do agree. Yet if she did indeed apply makeup, then in the context of a staged crime-scene, this is consistent. This is Patsy's contribution to the we just woke up story?

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[Nom de plume]

Nom de plume,
OK here is an off the hook suggestion: its BDI and both JR and PR are doing their best to muddy the waters. So JR suggests what is obvious i.e. Its an inside job and PR dresses for the part?

I reckon they are covering for BR on the basis they both know at the end of the day not a lot can be proved?


.

I don't buy BDI, never have, and never will. Main reason: In order to buy into BDI one must believe he hit her in the head. He didn't do any serious damage when he hit her in the face with the golf club, so why believe he had enough strength to do the kind of damage that was done to her skull? Personally, I will always believe, until proven wrong, that the flashlight was the weapon used, for several reasons. (correct shape, prints wiped down, tough enough to cause damage done) Anyone familiar with a Maglite brand flashlight knows how heavy they are. I simply do not believe BR had the strength to swing that flashlight hard enough to do said damage. On top of that, even a seriously disturbed child is going to show some signs in the aftermath, IMO. His attitude was just "cool...she's gone and I don't have to fight for attention anymore." Disturbing, yes. Homicidal, not IMO.

 

[wengr]

I don't buy BDI, never have, and never will. Main reason: In order to buy into BDI one must believe he hit her in the head. He didn't do any serious damage when he hit her in the face with the golf club, so why believe he had enough strength to do the kind of damage that was done to her skull? Personally, I will always believe, until proven wrong, that the flashlight was the weapon used, for several reasons. (correct shape, prints wiped down, tough enough to cause damage done) Anyone familiar with a Maglite brand flashlight knows how heavy they are. I simply do not believe BR had the strength to swing that flashlight hard enough to do said damage. On top of that, even a seriously disturbed child is going to show some signs in the aftermath, IMO. His attitude was just "cool...she's gone and I don't have to fight for attention anymore." Disturbing, yes. Homicidal, not IMO.

I don't think that the flashlight fits with the skull damage. Imo the side of the lens housing when impacting the skull ala WS does not create the elipse that was left. Also I suspect its much less likely to create such damage when weilded that way. For it to be used baton style does of course create an elipse and is more condusive to the damage, including the long crack - However imo the shaft of the flashlight is not the right size to fit the hole. It's too large in cross section and therefore it's unlikely that it would leave a hole with the length to width ratio of the elipse. Due to the dimentions of the hole I have to believe that it was something thinner in cross section than the flashlight.
Whatever it was, I suspect it had some weight to it - however, I feel that the more the object weighed, the less strength would be required to inflict the damage. The more it weighs, the more momentum it carries into the skull, and therefore more damage can be done with less strength. Up until the point of course where it's too heavy for the assailant to wield it.
I have a 3D cell maglight here right now. I am sure that my 6yr girl could swing it wih devastating results. I have no reason to disbelieve that a ten year old boy would be any thing but completely capable.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
Yes, you are on sounder ground with your Columbo analogy. It could simply be its PDI and she rolled the dice and could not care less about the outcome, since she thought I can never win? JR on the other hand thought, well I have helped out Patsy, but I sure do not fancy a stay in jail, so he showers and changes, and sets up the legal representation, just in case Patsy decides to place him in frame?

.

If it was PDI she'd be in control of the timeline, knowingly, and I can't see her rolling the dice and not even trying. I can't see JR allowing that either. JR plays to win, shoots every angle, works every advantage. As a co-conspirator he'd make himself captain of the team. If he had time to shower and change, so did she, and it makes no sense to me that she didn't -unless, as I suspect, she had nothing to hide.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
So what conclusion do you draw from your evidence?

I conclude that he was attempting to stage an intruder break-in through the basement window, but had not completed staging when PR unexpectedly called 911.

With the grate in place and the spider web intact, it was obvious, even to BPD, that no one came in/out that window. He had to supply a reason for the broken pane.

I reckon JR is patently suggesting that JonBenet's killer was resident in the house.

Meaning he's pointing his finger at BR and/or PR. So much for women and children first.

This is not inconsistent from the evidence.[/qutoe]

True.

Your reference to a key is your assumption.

I think his reference to "inside job" is meant to have police considering suspects with a key.

I simply think this is JR's first attempt at Not Me Guv, it was Burke!

BDI is too silly for me to consider. Not much of a father if he's pointing his finger at a 9 year old. Still, it could be. Self preservation.

JR knew how things looked he was simply playing along with what he thought might be LE's initial perception, he was not far wrong. Once LS arrived and the media pumped out his crazed pedophile theory, JR realized hey this this will take the heat off us, lets dump the insider theory, and so JR grew to love the media!
.

LS, with his then sterling reputation, saved the day for JR. No reason to argue with the great detective. If he says intruders stood on a teetering suitcase and climbed out and replaced the grate and re-attached the web, well, that ought to be good enough for anyone. It was good enough for AH, which is all that really mattered.

 

[Chrishope]

I don't buy BDI, never have, and never will. Main reason: In order to buy into BDI one must believe he hit her in the head. He didn't do any serious damage when he hit her in the face with the golf club, so why believe he had enough strength to do the kind of damage that was done to her skull? Personally, I will always believe, until proven wrong, that the flashlight was the weapon used, for several reasons. (correct shape, prints wiped down, tough enough to cause damage done) Anyone familiar with a Maglite brand flashlight knows how heavy they are. I simply do not believe BR had the strength to swing that flashlight hard enough to do said damage. On top of that, even a seriously disturbed child is going to show some signs in the aftermath, IMO. His attitude was just "cool...she's gone and I don't have to fight for attention anymore." Disturbing, yes. Homicidal, not IMO.

I believe BR might have been strong enough. My problem is that BR can't be prosecuted and therefore there is no need for his parents to implicate themselves in murder/obstruction of justice. BDI falls down simply because there was no need to protect BR. Also the family is not spared any embarrassment by having the public think JR and/or PR did it.

 

[wengr]

I believe BR might have been strong enough. My problem is that BR can't be prosecuted and therefore there is no need for his parents to implicate themselves in murder/obstruction of justice. BDI falls down simply because there was no need to protect BR. Also the family is not spared any embarrassment by having the public think JR and/or PR did it.

Imo, the stager was acting in response to embarrasment and shame more than a fear of what law enforcement might do to a nine year old.
Someone wrote the note. It was written for a reason. I'm thinking that the reason is that in the mind of the stager, it turns the coming scorn and ridicule into empathy.

 

[Chrishope]

Imo, the stager was acting in response to embarrasment and shame more than a fear of what law enforcement might do to a nine year old.
Someone wrote the note. It was written for a reason. I'm thinking that the reason is that in the mind of the stager, it turns the coming scorn and ridicule into empathy.

The stager was trying to stage a kidnapping, hence the RN.

 

[midwest mama]

Chrishope, your quotes:

If it had been premeditated wouldn't it have been clearer? That is, wouldn't it be clearly a kidnapping -with the body gone- or wouldn't it have been a sex murder with the body all too obviously on display, and not redressed? Why two competing narratives that are at cross purposes?

I believe it was initially planned to take JB's body out of the house. There was something that changed the plan.

There were both a severe blow to the head -fatal in itself, if time were allowed to pass- then there was the strangulation. Why two different murder methods for a crime well thought out in advance?

The length of time lapse has been debated by professionals, with the autopsy report written to make them appear as nearly concurrent happenings resulting in death. It is my belief that there was an initial strangulation of JB, which the lower set of bruise marks on her neck in the autopsy photos might indicate. I think this initial strangulation was done because JB screamed, and she was choked enough (probably by twisting the collar of the red turtleneck, (which Patsy first told officers she had on) to shut her up, with a bash in the head being an unexpected addition of force, to make sure she was silenced, but the original plan was to use the ligature for strangulation to make it look like she was kidnapped by a pedophile, and then killed. Some minutes probably did pass before the killer was able to get JB changed out of the red turtleneck and into the white shirt w/star before the ligature could be positioned and used.

IMO, the crime scene/staging is not consistent with premeditation and prior planning. If the murder was not premeditated then the trip plans were not made with murder in mind.

I believe JB's death was premeditated - a couple of weeks before it happened, because of a combination of medical issues, and other unusual things JB was demonstrating - to teachers and other adults. And I believe that Christmas was chosen for her death by JR for a couple of reasons - related to his mental state due to the loss of Beth, coupled with some other hidden agendas of JR's that he managed to keep very well cloaked.

I think too much is being read into the Michigan trip. They owned a vacation home in Michigan. They owned a private plane. It doesn't strike me as odd that they'd arrange a Christmas gathering in Charlevoix. That's what vacation homes are for. I will say that the people I've known from Mich would consider it a vacation to be out of state at that time of year - FL/AZ, someplace warm. But JR grew up in Mich, maybe he liked the snowy "White Christmas" feel of the place. I'd always assumed that the Charlevoix house was the "summering" house, but when you think of it Charlevoix is the perfect "Christmas-y" sort of place, if you like that kind of thing.

Flying to Michigan at that time of year in a small plane would have been a risk. Bad weather is reason enough to avoid flying commercial planes, but an expected storm would ground a small plane for sure. Getting tickets, etc. lined up, with the possibility of having to cancel due to weather with only one day to celebrate just seems too unlikely. And Patsy said she had to gather winter clothing in plastic bags to take with them because they only kept summer things at the house. Summer things, for a summer house. Boulder would have been a wiser choice all around for a short celebration with the older kids: chance of White Christmas there too, another trip planned right away, and the older kids could have even hung around in Boulder for a while having the house all to themselves before going back to Atlanta.

It would have been a lot of extra flying for JAR/MR if they'd come to Boulder then back to Mich.

As pointed out, they could all have had Christmas together in Boulder but what's the fun of owning a 2nd house and a plane if you aren't going to use them?

If it had not been for the Disney trip scheduled for Patsy's birthday, which was to start with a commercial flight out of Denver on the 28th, then I could understand the risk (weather/flying problems) of planning a celebration in Michigan, since they could have spent a few more days or afforded to be stranded due to weather. Patsy was the one who wanted to do the Disney thing with the kids, so I imagine she orchestrated that trip, having no reason to suspect there would be anything to circumvent it.

JR put the Michigan trip into the mix, with Patsy initially disliking the idea due to all their other holiday plans. Knowing how much holiday/business entertaining was in store for them to be planned by a wife who had fought such a physical battle against cancer, and who also had a couple of pageants lined up for JB right after the Disney trip, you would think JR would have backed off on the idea once Patsy balked. Too important for him, IMO.

Then, there's this: (from acandyrose.com)
"The autopsy proves JonBenet's death was premeditated, said an attorney for John and Patsy Ramsey, the little girl's parents. "The autopsy details released today confirm what we have known for some time -- that this vicious murder was well-planned,'' attorney Hal Haddon said. "The person who prepared the ligature and garrote obviously put a lot of thought into this murder.''

The same lawyers that were hired to "prepare a defense" for JR, since the BPD initially thought he had written the note and killed JB (JR's words in DOI) and a source from within LE phoned to tell him he should get a lawyer?

 

[wengr]

LS, with his then sterling reputation, saved the day for JR. No reason to argue with the great detective. If he says intruders stood on a teetering suitcase and climbed out and replaced the grate and re-attached the web, well, that ought to be good enough for anyone. It was good enough for AH, which is all that really mattered.

Alot of truth here. AH wanted nothing more than to avoid having to try a case against the clients of the RST. And LS was a very useful idiot to that end.

 

[wengr]

The stager was trying to stage a kidnapping, hence the RN.

The real question is why the stager was trying to stage a kidnapping.

 

[Darlene733510]

I am beginning to think that the bash in the head was done either in JB's bedroom or her bathroom. So what would Be in her bedroom? I don't think the mag flashlight was there. So in her bedroom the trophies would be my guess. In the bathroom she could have been bashed by slamming her head against a hard surface. Then we have BR who demonstrated the 2 blows to the head, and he said it was done with a hammer. If it was that, it had to be a ball peen hammer with the rounded edge. As usual, we don't know what objects were in the basement, if it was done there, but I still think it happened upstairs, and that the bag with the rope under JAR's bed was hidden afterwards. Was that rope the same as the one used for the garrote, I don't remember?
I think JR assisted PR with writing the RN. When he was questioned about it, remember he said that he would have used a word processor, or not done the RN at all. I think he regretted writing that note when he realized it was so ridiculous to write a RN referring to kidnapping when the body was still in the house.

 

[midwest mama]

The real question is why the stager was trying to stage a kidnapping.

To lay out a plan for getting rid of a dead body, to which an attempt to hide previous sexual molestation had been done. In life, the dead body had become a problem to the molester, which was becoming a threat to the molester's mode of life: family, wealth, Christian reputation - Fat Cat.

Within the staging were things aimed at pointing to a crazed pedophile ( also the injury, trying to cover the former molestation), a part of a threatening group, to whom money would have to be delivered through an exhausting process. Maybe a process of delivery to a location that would have to be accessed by plane - conveniently readied for an expected trip.

If so, maybe the headlines on Dec 26th would have included this:
"Local Millionaire John Ramsey Disappears in Private Plane Delivering Ramsom Demand for Kidnapped Daughter - Search for Plane Has Begun"

Meanwhile, a Fat Cat is on the way to his next clandestine fuel stop, which is also part of a plan to get him far away with enough cash to start over - after all, starting from scratch worked once, why not again?:moo:

 

[otg]

I don't buy BDI, never have, and never will. Main reason: In order to buy into BDI one must believe he hit her in the head.

If that is the only thing keeping you from BDI, Nom, you're reason isn't on very solid ground. I won't try to convince you otherwise now, but I know from your posts that you are an intelligent poster, so keep an open mind.

He didn't do any serious damage when he hit her in the face with the golf club, so why believe he had enough strength to do the kind of damage that was done to her skull?

We don't know enough about the previous injury to be able to say what to expect from it. It could have been (and IMO most likely was) nothing more than a graze of the corner of a putter. People who knew about it thought Patsy was making too big a deal of it by even taking JonBenet to a plastic surgeon to see about it, so it couldn't be that it was a solid blow landing on her head. There are too many examples given by others here of cases where a child has seriously injured another child with a golf club (see redheadedgal's posts on the subject here). There was another case (and I don't have the link right now) where two young boys (friends) were playing and one accidentally landed a blow on the other boy's head with a child's putter. It caused a depressed fracture which killed him.

Personally, I will always believe, until proven wrong, that the flashlight was the weapon used, for several reasons. (correct shape, prints wiped down, tough enough to cause damage done) Anyone familiar with a Maglite brand flashlight knows how heavy they are. I simply do not believe BR had the strength to swing that flashlight hard enough to do said damage. On top of that, even a seriously disturbed child is going to show some signs in the aftermath, IMO. His attitude was just "cool...she's gone and I don't have to fight for attention anymore." Disturbing, yes. Homicidal, not IMO.

If I am able to disprove the Maglite as a possible weapon, would you reconsider? Would you reconsider if the weapon were much heavier and easy enough to swing?

 

[otg]

I don't think that the flashlight fits with the skull damage. Imo the side of the lens housing when impacting the skull ala WS does not create the elipse that was left. Also I suspect its much less likely to create such damage when weilded that way. For it to be used baton style does of course create an elipse and is more condusive to the damage, including the long crack - However imo the shaft of the flashlight is not the right size to fit the hole. It's too large in cross section and therefore it's unlikely that it would leave a hole with the length to width ratio of the elipse. Due to the dimentions of the hole I have to believe that it was something thinner in cross section than the flashlight.
Whatever it was, I suspect it had some weight to it - however, I feel that the more the object weighed, the less strength would be required to inflict the damage. The more it weighs, the more momentum it carries into the skull, and therefore more damage can be done with less strength. Up until the point of course where it's too heavy for the assailant to wield it.
I have a 3D cell maglight here right now. I am sure that my 6yr girl could swing it wih devastating results. I have no reason to disbelieve that a ten year old boy would be any thing but completely capable.

I couldn't agree with you any more on everything you stated here, wengr.