Happenings of December 26

[Linda7NJ]

I had a thought today, that I haven't had before.
If Patsy hit her, bashing her skull... Accidentally or not. Pasty would have heard it, felt it, and seen the immediate repercussions. Unable to rouse JonBenet, scared, unwilling to have less than a perfect child...suffering the effects of a severe head injury had she survived.
I can see Patsy finishing her off.


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[UKGuy]

I believe a true garrote has two handles.

The hair of JonBenet entwined in the knot, shows me it was tied while on the child. Not before, like a real garrote.
IMO the paintbrush handle was used as leverage...


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Linda7NJ.
BBM: ITA. Two handles for a garrote is correct, this is how the USofA miltary employ them. Alternatively the name garrote also applies to the use of a simple ligature, placed around the neck and pulled tight. Lookup thugee on your favorite search engine.

There is a lot of disinformation out there regarding the paintbrush/ligature. I find the best way to approach this is to suggest that JonBenet was ligature strangled upstairs but brought downstairs where the paintbrush handle was attached to mimic that of a garrote, but mimic is the operative word, since the asphyxiation device could not have functioned as advertised and if it had, there would be more extensive damage to the underlying structures of JonBenet's neck, including her hyoid bone, which was found intact, see the autopsy report.


Its all staging, since nobody needed to employ a paintbrush or ligature to asphyxiate JonBenet, a hand over her mouth and nose would be sufficient, or a pillow or plastic bag etc.

Also JonBenet was being kidnapped for ransom not for asphyxiation or sexual assault. There is no forensic evidence linking to any person identified outside the Ramsey household. I'll exempt the feces left in JonBenet's bedroom since nobody seemed to consider that it belonged to the intruder!

There is more forensic evidence in the form of fibers, fingerprints and touch dna linking all three Ramsey's to JonBenet's last hours alive than that of any foreign forensic evidence. That is there is zero foreign forensic evidence available.

All this talk about an Intruder is simply wishful speculation, nothing more nothing less. There is no evidence to support such a view.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda7NJ.

BBM: ITA. Two handles for a garrote is correct, this is how the USofA miltary employ them. Alternatively the name garrote also applies to the use of a simple ligature, placed around the neck and pulled tight. Lookup thugee on your favorite search engine.



There is a lot of disinformation out there regarding the paintbrush/ligature. I find the best way to approach this is to suggest that JonBenet was ligature strangled upstairs but brought downstairs where the paintbrush handle was attached to mimic that of a garrote, but mimic is the operative word, since the asphyxiation device could not have functioned as advertised and if it had, there would be more extensive damage to the underlying structures of JonBenet's neck, including her hyoid bone, which was found intact, see the autopsy report.





Its all staging, since nobody needed to employ a paintbrush or ligature to asphyxiate JonBenet, a hand over her mouth and nose would be sufficient, or a pillow or plastic bag etc.



Also JonBenet was being kidnapped for ransom not for asphyxiation or sexual assault. There is no forensic evidence linking to any person identified outside the Ramsey household. I'll exempt the feces left in JonBenet's bedroom since nobody seemed to consider that it belonged to the intruder!



There is more forensic evidence in the form of fibers, fingerprints and touch dna linking all three Ramsey's to JonBenet's last hours alive than that of any foreign forensic evidence. That is there is zero foreign forensic evidence available.



All this talk about an Intruder is simply wishful speculation, nothing more nothing less. There is no evidence to support such a view.

Agreed...


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[Anyhoo]

I never thought I would find myself agreeing with Scarlett against other RDI members but I do. No matter what you want to call it, there was a device around her neck that was used to strangle her to death. Don't get caught up over terminology. That said, I would like to focus on one little part of the strangulation device, the broken paint brush handle. I agree that JB's hair in the knot indicates the garrote was created around her neck and not pre-created. To me that indicates the garrote was an afterthought and not something someone premeditated, which fits with my staging theory, but the mystery to me is the paint brush handle. Something about the decision to break that off and use it as the handle of the strangulation device troubles me. It's hard to explain what I am trying to say but it is basically this: if I were the one creating this device, for the purposes of staging, it would be highly illogical for me to choose the paintbrush handle as part of it. The decision to use that goes contrary to the goal of staging (by a Ramsey) unless the person staging was so arrogant and supremely confident that they believed they could do almost anything and not get caught. The decision to use that broken paint brush reveals the killer's thought processes. No fear. The belief he or she is invincible, that they can leave any clues they want and still not get caught. This realization troubles me because it indicates a mind that is not a Ramsey. I have to admit that to myself. No person in the family fits that MO.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I never thought I would find myself agreeing with Scarlett against other RDI members but I do. No matter what you want to call it, there was a device around her neck that was used to strangle her to death. Don't get caught up over terminology. That said, I would like to focus on one little part of the strangulation device, the broken paint brush handle. I agree that JB's hair in the knot indicates the garrote was created around her neck and not pre-created. To me that indicates the garrote was an afterthought and not something someone premeditated, which fits with my staging theory, but the mystery to me is the paint brush handle. Something about the decision to break that off and use it as the handle of the strangulation device troubles me. It's hard to explain what I am trying to say but it is basically this: if I were the one creating this device, for the purposes of staging, it would be highly illogical for me to choose the paintbrush handle as part of it. The decision to use that goes contrary to the goal of staging (by a Ramsey) unless the person staging was so arrogant and supremely confident that they believed they could do almost anything and not get caught. The decision to use that broken paint brush reveals the killer's thought processes. No fear. The belief he or she is invincible, that they can leave any clues they want and still not get caught. This realization troubles me because it indicates a mind that is not a Ramsey. I have to admit that to myself. No person in the family fits that MO.

IMO that paintbrush handle points away from it being a man.
I believe it's extremely difficult to strangle someone to death simply pulling a rope tight. I believe a man would be capable or sustaining the force necessary but a woman would need the extra leverage the paintbrush handle would provide.
I don't believe it was staging at that point. It didn't become staging until her wrists were loosely tied, tape applied, wiped, changed & covered...

The more I think about it tonight... The more I'm in a Patsy only Patsy mind frame.




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[UKGuy]

I never thought I would find myself agreeing with Scarlett against other RDI members but I do. No matter what you want to call it, there was a device around her neck that was used to strangle her to death. Don't get caught up over terminology. That said, I would like to focus on one little part of the strangulation device, the broken paint brush handle. I agree that JB's hair in the knot indicates the garrote was created around her neck and not pre-created. To me that indicates the garrote was an afterthought and not something someone premeditated, which fits with my staging theory, but the mystery to me is the paint brush handle. Something about the decision to break that off and use it as the handle of the strangulation device troubles me. It's hard to explain what I am trying to say but it is basically this: if I were the one creating this device, for the purposes of staging, it would be highly illogical for me to choose the paintbrush handle as part of it. The decision to use that goes contrary to the goal of staging (by a Ramsey) unless the person staging was so arrogant and supremely confident that they believed they could do almost anything and not get caught. The decision to use that broken paint brush reveals the killer's thought processes. No fear. The belief he or she is invincible, that they can leave any clues they want and still not get caught. This realization troubles me because it indicates a mind that is not a Ramsey. I have to admit that to myself. No person in the family fits that MO.

Anyhoo,
JonBenet may have been ligature strangled independently of the broken paintbrush handle being attached. There is nothing that mandates they took place in the same location at the same time!

There is a piece of the paintbrush handle missing, so it could be this was used to assault JonBenet internally, with the other piece added as an afterthought to make the strangulation appear more violent?

It was not arrogance or confidence that motivated the stager but the desire to fake a realistic crime-scene. Except of course the fake ligature/paintbrush with JonBenet's hair tied into it and PR's fibers in the knotting, and that it could not function as advertised, all tell you the person arranging the crime-scene was an amateur!

Also the person who sexually assaulted JonBenet might not be the same person who whacked her on the head, and the latter might not be the same person who pulled the ligature tight around JonBenet's neck causing her to expire, similarly the latter person might not be the same person who added the paintbrush handle and wiped her down in the basement, then placed her in the wine-cellar.

One thing is certain as Kolar states there was not a foreign faction in the Ramsey household that night!


.

 

[Anyhoo]

IMO that paintbrush handle points away from it being a man.
I believe it's extremely difficult to strangle someone to death simply pulling a rope tight. I believe a man would be capable or sustaining the force necessary but a woman would need the extra leverage the paintbrush handle would provide.
I don't believe it was staging at that point. It didn't become staging until her wrists were loosely tied, tape applied, wiped, changed & covered...

The more I think about it tonight... The more I'm in a Patsy only Patsy mind frame.




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If PR had done it all, and I am willing to consider that possibility, would you agree that she would have had to be psychotic to do it? Can anyone deny that a parent who brutally kills their own child is psychotic? Did PR appear to be psychotic to you on any of the media appearances she made?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

The cord around the neck along with the handle was use to suspend the torso, the strangulation was already done leaving the bruising on the lower front neck.

The wrist ligatures were used to suspend the arms.

Both ligatures had the same purpose and function.

 

[otg]

This topic confuses me :blushing:

:lol: wrong thread!

Me too, bettybaby. What's this place coming to? I've found agreement with BlueBottle, Anyhoo agrees with Scarlett, and Scarlett agrees with Steve Thomas!

:crazy:

(Where's AK? Who's he gonna agree with?) :biglaugh:

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

If PR had done it all, and I am willing to consider that possibility, would you agree that she would have had to be psychotic to do it? Can anyone deny that a parent who brutally kills their own child is psychotic? Did PR appear to be psychotic to you on any of the media appearances she made?

It is a well known fact that sociopathic/psychopathic murderers functioned in society to varying degrees of success before and after their murders.

This is why they are difficult to detect, identify and prosecute.

Does Ted Bundy ring a bell?

 

[Venom]

Some thoughts...

I've always thought an actual garrote was a cord wound once around the neck with handles on each end that were pulled to cut off airflow. I've been searching for "garrotes" and have seen talk of a cord being tied around the neck and pulled, often with a knee pushed onto the victims back to help with leverage. Would that be how this "strangulation device" (thanks Tawny for the term ) was used?
Could she have been smothered with a hand and then the strangulation device be added afterwards? Hence that's how her hyoid bone not being broken.

 

[Venom]

Me too, bettybaby. What's this place coming to? I've found agreement with BlueBottle, Anyhoo agrees with Scarlett, and Scarlett agrees with Steve Thomas!

:crazy:

(Where's AK? Who's he gonna agree with?) :biglaugh:

I know right, who would have thought. :floorlaugh:

 

[Anyhoo]

Anyhoo,
JonBenet may have been ligature strangled independently of the broken paintbrush handle being attached. There is nothing that mandates they took place in the same location at the same time!

There is a piece of the paintbrush handle missing, so it could be this was used to assault JonBenet internally, with the other piece added as an afterthought to make the strangulation appear more violent?

It was not arrogance or confidence that motivated the stager but the desire to fake a realistic crime-scene. Except of course the fake ligature/paintbrush with JonBenet's hair tied into it and PR's fibers in the knotting, and that it could not function as advertised, all tell you the person arranging the crime-scene was an amateur!

Also the person who sexually assaulted JonBenet might not be the same person who whacked her on the head, and the latter might not be the same person who pulled the ligature tight around JonBenet's neck causing her to expire, similarly the latter person might not be the same person who added the paintbrush handle and wiped her down in the basement, then placed her in the wine-cellar.

One thing is certain as Kolar states there was not a foreign faction in the Ramsey household that night!


.

If one were wanting to fake a realistic crime scene, the choice of the paint brush handle as the strangulation device handle would be most illogical, in the same way
as writing a RN using a pad and pen from the house was most illogical. A realistic crime scene would not use something that pointed directly back to the family, IMO. Do you consider the RN a realistic crime scene? I don't. Nor do I consider the garrote fashioned around her neck and using the broken paint brush handle realistic. It is like the person who did it didn't care if it was realistic or not, kind of like the RN.

I agree with on many points you said but I am still troubled by this one part of it. The garrote reveals a lot about the killer, staging or not. The decision to use that stick shows the emotions and thought processes of the person doing it. Any normal person would be terrified because of what they were doing: killing a child, but this person was not terrified. This person didn't care. This person might even have enjoyed it.

 

[Venom]

If PR had done it all, and I am willing to consider that possibility, would you agree that she would have had to be psychotic to do it? Can anyone deny that a parent who brutally kills their own child is psychotic? Did PR appear to be psychotic to you on any of the media appearances she made?

Psychotic? Maybe, but I'd tend to think more along the lines of mentally ill. Or as otg has stated, sometimes good people do bad things.

 

[Linda7NJ]

If PR had done it all, and I am willing to consider that possibility, would you agree that she would have had to be psychotic to do it? Can anyone deny that a parent who brutally kills their own child is psychotic? Did PR appear to be psychotic to you on any of the media appearances she made?

No. I think she was a stressed out, unorganized, narcissistic woman.
I think perhaps when they got home John went to bed leaving Patsy the job of getting kids snacks, into bed, packing for two trips, last minute wrapping etc...
I'm
Not sure what happened...but she could have whacked her in a split second of rage.
Rather than face what she'd done, and being wildly dramatic and over the top simply desired to distance herself from it all.


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[Linda7NJ]

Me too, bettybaby. What's this place coming to? I've found agreement with BlueBottle, Anyhoo agrees with Scarlett, and Scarlett agrees with Steve Thomas!

:crazy:

(Where's AK? Who's he gonna agree with?) :biglaugh:

Full moon?
Time change?


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[Venom]

If one were wanting to fake a realistic crime scene, the choice of the paint brush handle as the strangulation device handle would be most illogical, in the same was as writing a RN using a pad and pen from the house was most illogical. A realistic crime scene would not use something that pointed directly back to the family, IMO. Do you consider the RN a realistic crime scene? I don't. Nor do I consider the garrote fashioned around her neck and using the broken paint brush handle realistic. It is like the person who did it didn't care if it was realistic or not, kind of like the RN.

I agree with on many points you said but I am still troubled by this one part of it. The garrote reveals a lot about the killer, staging or not. The decision to use that stick shows the emotions and thought processes of the person doing it. Any normal person would be terrified because of what they were doing: killing a child, but this person was not terrified. This person didn't care. This person might even have enjoyed it.

Anyhoo, that's where I tend to think it was an accident and cover up, hence they couldn't just run down to wal-mart and buy a pen and paper as they might be seen, receipt traced back to them so they had to use what they had. But you think they would have gotten rid of the pad and pen I dunno, maybe just overlooked the pad and pen and it was too late to get rid of them so they got stuck back where they belong. How does that explain JR giving LE the pad?
So many twists and turns and possibilities.
I wish this case would be solved one day and I still be around to know how the puzzle goes together.

 

[Venom]

No. I think she was a stressed out, unorganized, narcissistic woman.
I think perhaps when they got home John went to bed leaving Patsy the job of getting kids snacks, into bed, packing for two trips, last minute wrapping etc...
I'm
Not sure what happened...but she could have whacked her in a split second of rage.
Rather than face what she'd done, and being wildly dramatic and over the top simply desired to distance herself from it all.


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Yes, I could see that. Haven't we all (moms) been there?

 

[bettybaby00]

I never thought I would find myself agreeing with Scarlett against other RDI members but I do. No matter what you want to call it, there was a device around her neck that was used to strangle her to death. Don't get caught up over terminology. That said, I would like to focus on one little part of the strangulation device, the broken paint brush handle. I agree that JB's hair in the knot indicates the garrote was created around her neck and not pre-created. To me that indicates the garrote was an afterthought and not something someone premeditated, which fits with my staging theory, but the mystery to me is the paint brush handle. Something about the decision to break that off and use it as the handle of the strangulation device troubles me. It's hard to explain what I am trying to say but it is basically this: if I were the one creating this device, for the purposes of staging, it would be highly illogical for me to choose the paintbrush handle as part of it. The decision to use that goes contrary to the goal of staging (by a Ramsey) unless the person staging was so arrogant and supremely confident that they believed they could do almost anything and not get caught. The decision to use that broken paint brush reveals the killer's thought processes. No fear. The belief he or she is invincible, that they can leave any clues they want and still not get caught. This realization troubles me because it indicates a mind that is not a Ramsey. I have to admit that to myself. No person in the family fits that MO.

BBM

As far as logic, someone posted the other week, and of course it's been stated by all the "experts," staging is used to deflect, and mislead. In that regard they were very successful. And IA also with the comment, the more heinous the better to never consider a Ramsey.

In fact for me, the arrogance you've just described doesn't make me believe RDI any less, b/c so much of their post crime behavior was extremely arrogant, IMO.

Prior to this tragedy, I'm sure their wealth and status in Boulder afforded them many opportunities and advantages that would be out of reach for most others. During the investigation, they operated above the rule of law, and believed they deserved that treatment. The transcript of PR regarding BR's safety from 2000 posted in the "burke involved thread" is a prime example as to the level of that arrogance. L. Wood is just......slimy is the word that immediately comes to mind, takes a lot of B**** to try and manipulate like that. And PR just let him "handle it," b/c hey that's what privilege is all about, right?

All MOO of course

 

[Linda7NJ]

BBM



for me, the arrogance you've just described doesn't make me believe RDI any less, b/c so much of their post crime behavior was extremely arrogant, IMO.



Prior to this tragedy, I'm sure their wealth and status in Boulder afforded them many opportunities and advantages that would be out of reach for most others. During the investigation, they operated above the rule of law, and believed they deserved that treatment. The transcript regarding BR from 2000 posted in the "was burke involved thread" is a prime example as to the level of their arrogance.



All MOO of course

They wouldn't see it as arrogance.

Money buys privilege and others are too easily lead to cater to it.


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