It is doubtful she was somewhere else- livor mortis was fixed by that time, but rigor mortis was forming and manipulating the body will "break" rigor. Once broken, it will not re-form. She was in FULL rigor when found and brought up at 1 pm, so we know no one handled the body. However, there is one way to explain why FW did not see her. That room was L-shaped. When you looked in from the hall outside, you couldn't see the main part of the room unless you STEPPED INSIDE. FW has said he did not actually enter the room. Nor did he turn on the light because he could not find the light switch, which was on a wall outside the room, and in an odd place down low on the wall. Had her body been deep in that main part of the room, he would not have seen her. When JR heard FW tell police he had looked in that room, by this time JR WANTED her to be found because by then he realized police were not going to leave until they themselves had to leave. In other words, the Rs were not going to be left alone in the house to "discover" that JB "had been returned- dead". He HAD to find her because if they had to leave the house with her still hidden there, she'd be decomposing - and then cadaver dogs would have found her. No open coffin in a frilly pageant dress and tiara at that point. So JR could have used the opportunity that Det Arndt so stupidly gave him to pull her closer to the doorway. He didn't need to handle her much- he could have simply pulled her along the floor.
Happenings of December 26
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It is doubtful she was somewhere else- livor mortis was fixed by that time, but rigor mortis was forming and manipulating the body will "break" rigor. Once broken, it will not re-form. She was in FULL rigor when found and brought up at 1 pm, so we know no one handled the body. However, there is one way to explain why FW did not see her. That room was L-shaped. When you looked in from the hall outside, you couldn't see the main part of the room unless you STEPPED INSIDE. FW has said he did not actually enter the room. Nor did he turn on the light because he could not find the light switch, which was on a wall outside the room, and in an odd place down low on the wall. Had her body been deep in that main part of the room, he would not have seen her. When JR heard FW tell police he had looked in that room, by this time JR WANTED her to be found because by then he realized police were not going to leave until they themselves had to leave. In other words, the Rs were not going to be left alone in the house to "discover" that JB "had been returned- dead". He HAD to find her because if they had to leave the house with her still hidden there, she'd be decomposing - and then cadaver dogs would have found her. No open coffin in a frilly pageant dress and tiara at that point. So JR could have used the opportunity that Det Arndt so stupidly gave him to pull her closer to the doorway. He didn't need to handle her much- he could have simply pulled her along the floor.
elannia
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The open casket kinda freaks me out... I could not (myself) have an open casket for my daughter that had been brutally murdered. Of course we are talking about the R's so of course they had to have her all dolled up for everyone to see. Anyways on another note... do you think they expected JB to be found? But then of course they would have been considered suspects then too. Im just wondering if LE did find her that morning what the R's reaction to that would be... For example " uh yes we found JB and she is dead in your basement", something to that effect. Wonder what they would have said to that.
midwest mama
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ITA. In spite of a couple of ways I see this crime could have begun and been carried out, I always end up seeing JR stashing JB'S body in that wine cellar. IMO, JR knows how she died.
I think it is certainly possible that JR could have moved the body slightly to be visible from the door. However, it would certainly be helpful to have FWs testimony about this. From what I gather, JR was standing in the same spot FW had been standing, with no lights on. How could he have seen something FW didnt? It would be helpful to know if FW was able to see the body when he was with John? But from what I understood, he couldn't, or I've never read anything to the contrary.
FW is an interesting guy. I've never heard him speak publicly about what he saw and did that day. He obviously had big doubts about the Ramsey's from day one, and was passionate about getting the case solved. But he's never spoken publicly about the facts. I believe he is afraid that JR would drag his name in to it further than he already had, and he simply didn't want that. JR was a powerful man and FW was afraid of him IMO.
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FW is an interesting guy. I've never heard him speak publicly about what he saw and did that day. He obviously had big doubts about the Ramsey's from day one, and was passionate about getting the case solved. But he's never spoken publicly about the facts. I believe he is afraid that JR would drag his name in to it further than he already had, and he simply didn't want that. JR was a powerful man and FW was afraid of him IMO.
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Mama2JML
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FWIW...
http://b.heart.50megs.com/ramsey/Light_and_the_WR.htm
"Powerful" in what capacity? FW isn't exactly a weakling... Why would he have been intimidated by JR? How could this perceived power/influence negatively affect FW?andreww said:
i had read a while back that police conducted a test in the basement just outside the wine cellar to determine whether someone standing where FW claimed to have been could see a white blanket on the floor with no lights on in the room but with only the light from the area just outside the room. I believe they determined that FW should have been able to see her if she had been there when he looked the first time. Had the blanket been dark, maybe not. But white would have reflected enough of the light from the outer area to be visible. I believe that during the period (approximately between 10 am and noon) that Det Arndt "lost" JR he could have been in the basement, having slipped away unnoticed, and he could have brought her closer to the door. By that time he needed her to be found. I was wondering why he didn't just claim to have "found" her then- why bring her closer, why not just bring her up-like he did a few hours later? But I figure it was because he either wanted someone else to find her or wanted someone else to witness him finding her- so he could pretend to be surprised. FW had said that JR "saw" her before he turned on the light and it surprised him, because he hadn't been able to see her when he looked without the light on.
I often think about whether they wanted her to be found. I think they actually did NOT want her found at first- I think they expected police would eventually leave (to find the "kidnapper") and then they could have called police back, saying the found her and she had been killed because they disobeyed the note and called police (along with everyone else they knew). When they realized police were not going to leave until they themselves had to leave, they had to have her found at that point. No way would they be able to leave her to rot in the basement. Within a day, the odor of decay would be noticed from outside the house- even in winter. Police would be called back to the house and it would have been a horrible sight. I honestly believe they could not face a decomposed corpse of JB - whether they would have had to see it or not. A missing child found dead in their home always implicates the parents (or anyone else present at the time of the crime). A missing child found dead BY a parent implicates them even more so.
DeeDee249,
Where would the R's have found her, wine-cellar, front door step?
I reckon the R's expected BPD to find JonBenet when it was obvious this was not going to happen, JR used this period to alter and remove evidence, including transferring BR. Then later after some foot tapping and nail biting JR decided to discover JonBenet, crying out as he opened the wine-cellar door, seeing a sight that had eluded Fleet White earlier that morning!
Mama2JML
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If this is true there were measures they could have taken to ensure LEOs 'found' JB. Any one of the Rs could have prompted LE to complete a more vigorous search of the home, the door to the WC could have been left open, or the body could have been left in a more obvious location, altogether.
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Mama2JML,
I do not mean they planned that she should be found, only that the R's expected JonBenet would be found during the house search phase.
I agree with you that if the R's wanted her found, she would have been left out in the open, e.g. lying on her bed the victim of a pedophile intruder.
I'm speculating that once this did not happen, JR revised his plans and moved BR out of the house, under normal police procedures this should never have occurred. Also its possible JR re-arranged forensic evidence, even moving Jonbenet to the wine-cellar, who knows?
JR realizing the police were not going away, must have decided to find JonBenet whenever the opportunity arose. Since, unless they were going to have another cleanup if the police left, the R's were still going to have to explain away finding JonBenet in the wine-cellar?
Just where could they say they found her if their original plan had worked?
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I think they would have left her where she was (in the wine cellar) and said she must have been there all along, or said she must have been mysteriously put in there while they were home (expecting people to actually believe such nonsense). To tell you the truth, I have no doubt there would have been plenty of idiots who would have believed them. The world has no shortage of stupid.
DeeDee249,
It could be they never had this aspect figured out completely. Since JR was prepared to fly interstate that day and leave JonBenet behind, my guess is, this is what they might have eventually done, leaving the mess to their attorneys and blaming it all on some unspecified intruder.
.
Right. None of it makes sense. If JBR was "kidnapped" by an intruder, and the note was legit, I find it hard to believe their very FIRST action would be to do exactly what the note explicitly said not to. Maybe a less well off family, but not the R's, who could have easily made ransom and done so discreetly to get JBR back. If there was an accident and a cover-up, with the note obviously part of the cover-up, then yes, why not wait until 10 am to make the 911 call, as a way to explain JBR's death - "we didn't follow directions, they killed her"? The ONLY reason the call HAD to be made at 5:52 AM as opposed to later is because the family was set to fly to Michigan. So supposedly the R's are coherent and clear-minded enough to realize they can't simply wait it out and postpone their trip, because the ensuing investigation will inevitably disclose that they were supposed to be leaving early, and did not for whatever reason, pointing suspicion to them. They COULD have gotten away with this if they waited until 10, no call came, THEN called police. But they didn't. They called right away, which doesn't jibe with either cover-up scenario (kidnapping gone wrong, wait to call 911, deviating from instructions causes JBR death, body found later VS. calling immediately, both JR and PR knowing what happened, but them trying to blame it on a mysterious intruder - WHY WOULD YOU EVEN CALL??) IMO, PR could not have known about JBR being dead in the basement at that moment in time. As a cover-up for herself, JR, or BR, it's a dumb idea to call 911 at that point when they could have just waited. I can't make PR's 911 call at that specific time fit into any theory where she is involved. The contrasting nature of their behaviors is strange to me. JR & PR are thinking clearly enough to create this ridiculous, far-fetched kidnapping, remembering that their intended departure to Michigan that doesn't happen has to be explained, but are not thinking clearly enough to realize that calling 911 means everything is out of their control from that point on?
questfortrue
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Assuming RDI, why the call was put through at 5:52 am, and why not later? DeeDees thoughts about this work for me, i.e., the Rs believing an opportunity would arise once the police left, to later call them and tell them about the discovery of JBs body. They may indeed have had concerns about a decaying corpse and the associated smell. A situation launched too late would contribute to the likelihood of such unmistakable odors.
Also, there are stray details which had the potential to trip them up by waiting to place the call at 10:00. The pilot had to be told something. Hes waiting for them to show up. The kids who are to meet them in Michigan needed to be reached and told that theres been an emergency, and they should stay in Atlanta. So by those phone calls, theyve broken the mandates of the RN not to talk to a stray dog. They couldnt very well make those calls and still justify not contacting the police as was instructed in the RN.
Another thought about this 911 call comes to mind, too. Its advantageous according to journalists and people involved in public relations to be the first on the block with a story and repeat it over and over. In their nightmare of nights, without sleep, theres a high level of anxiety and a Lets just do this now pressure building. Its important that everyone know this as a kidnapping -
To the police: We have a kidnapping.
To the friends: Come over now, JBs been kidnapped.
To the pilot: JB has been kidnapped
To the children meeting them in Michigan: JB has been kidnapped
Dont know if most are familiar with the Rs book DOI, The Rs, in tackling accusations from the press, wrote a chapter in DOI titled Tell it Often Tell it Loud. The chapter launches with an account attributed to Joseph Goebbels, Hitlers minister of propaganda about people believing any lie (alluding to the horrible press) if its big enough and told often and loud enough. Personally, I cant help but perceive a macabre irony here. JMHO.
Also, there are stray details which had the potential to trip them up by waiting to place the call at 10:00. The pilot had to be told something. Hes waiting for them to show up. The kids who are to meet them in Michigan needed to be reached and told that theres been an emergency, and they should stay in Atlanta. So by those phone calls, theyve broken the mandates of the RN not to talk to a stray dog. They couldnt very well make those calls and still justify not contacting the police as was instructed in the RN.
Another thought about this 911 call comes to mind, too. Its advantageous according to journalists and people involved in public relations to be the first on the block with a story and repeat it over and over. In their nightmare of nights, without sleep, theres a high level of anxiety and a Lets just do this now pressure building. Its important that everyone know this as a kidnapping -
To the police: We have a kidnapping.
To the friends: Come over now, JBs been kidnapped.
To the pilot: JB has been kidnapped
To the children meeting them in Michigan: JB has been kidnapped
Dont know if most are familiar with the Rs book DOI, The Rs, in tackling accusations from the press, wrote a chapter in DOI titled Tell it Often Tell it Loud. The chapter launches with an account attributed to Joseph Goebbels, Hitlers minister of propaganda about people believing any lie (alluding to the horrible press) if its big enough and told often and loud enough. Personally, I cant help but perceive a macabre irony here. JMHO.
The 911 call was actually placed later than it should have been IMO, probably because a cleanup was still in effect. Think about it, if you are flying across the country and scheduled to leave your house at 6:30 am, are you likely to be just be going down to start making coffee at 5:45 when both kids are still sleeping? IMO everyone in that family should have been up by 5:30 as the kids would both need to dress, brush teeth, eat breakfast, use the bathroom, etc. It simply doesn't appear to me that there was any urgency to get out of that house that morning.
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Was the Ramsey vehicle ever checked thoroughly? We know that they called off delivering their last presents because it was too late, but I figure it was only sometime between 8:30 and 9:00. Could something have happened in the car? JR, being a pilot, would probably be the type of person to keep something like a flashlight in the glovebox. Could the kids have gotten out of control and someone overreacted?
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PurpleBunnyEars
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if it was a private plane/charter, the plane won't leave till you get there and you can just go straight to the plane and board. So if the airport was close by, they could leave at 6:15 and get to the plane by 6:30, though I would expect that they would have called a cab or driver to take them, not taking their personal vehicle and that would have had to have been scheduled at least a day in advance. I can't imagine they'd leave their car at the airport the whole time. But they had gotten home late that evening, hadn't packed, hadn't even done laundry prior to the dinner party. Could it be as simple as JR got up and got mad at PR for not having everything packed; JBR heard them arguing and someone got in the way of their argument and one of them hit her by accident but killing her or even one of them got so outraged that they just took JBR and did all this to her before even realizing what they did which freaked out the other parent who decided they better cover it up? Maybe they didn't think they had killed her, but put her down there at which point someone finished her off - they expected her to wake up at some point and reappear and they all be relieved and rejoiced and realize the kidnappers had only hidden her in the house, not took her off somewhere?
Both stated in their interview that the plane needed to take off at 6:00 so they could rendezvous with the rest of the family who were taking a commercial flight.
I don't really find it suspicious that they called the Police. I think at that point, the issue isn't about whether or not you could raise the ransom and, in all fairness, I think my instinct would be to call. However, I would make it clear that the RN specifically instructed against it and threatened my daughters life so that the PD would be discreet and I would probably assume they are trained for such situations. Which, of course, would have been wrong. BPD clearly wasn't trained for much.
However what I find totally ridiculous is that they then contacted half of the population of Boulder to "come on over". That, to me is the first major red flag as to their guilt. Followed closely by that absurd RN.