Happenings of December 26

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
(respectfully snipped, and rearranged for clarity)

The sexual assault was not staged. An attempt was made to cover up the sexual assault.

Meyer never said she was "digitally penetrated". He said (according to accounts, because he didn't write it in the AR) that she had been assaulted in a way "consistent with digital penetration". While it doesn't mean she couldn't have been, it does not mean that there were two assaults with two different objects. The paintbrush being used alone would cause injuries "consistent with digital penetration".

And as far as anything Spitz has to say, you should just learn to ignore. He's a publicity hound and an idiot. He claimed to have special insight in this case because of information that had been shared with him. Yet since he claimed that and made statements publicly that have since been proven to be flat-out falsehoods (due to information that has been leaked since he made the statements), you can absolutely ignore this idiot.

(Did I leave any doubt about how low an opinion I have of Spitz? Do I really have to go into what he did in a few recent high-profile murder cases as an "expert witness"?)



That's too much of an assumption, UKG.



(See above reference to Spitz.)



There is nothing redacted from the AR. Originally there was when it was first released, but a judge long ago ordered that the original AR be released without the portions that had been redacted from the public at first. You can even see a scanned copy of the actual report at Smoking Gun, so you can see for yourself that there is nothing redacted.

(Again you refer to Spitz! See above reference to Spitz, and take a look at my avatar.)

otg,
Now where should I start? Well nothing you post is inconsistent with what I have posted. What I am attempting to highlight is the staging via the sexual assault.

Meyer never said she was "digitally penetrated". He said (according to accounts, because he didn't write it in the AR) that she had been assaulted in a way "consistent with digital penetration". While it doesn't mean she couldn't have been, it does not mean that there were two assaults with two different objects. The paintbrush being used alone would cause injuries "consistent with digital penetration".
I accept your thesis that two assaults were possible but not probable. My thesis is that JonBenet was sexually assaulted on 12/25/1996, and that subsequent represention of her predicament was staged with the intent purpose of masking the chronic abuse, i.e. that JonBenet was a sexual victim.


.
 
Did LHP ever publish her book? Because I can't find it for sale anywhere.
 
Hi DeeDee249 - I didn't know she had written a book either. If you find out please post it on here so we can find out where to get it.
 
So far there was only one chapter that got out and it really wasn't done in good taste..When I get back to my home computer,I will send the link...But for the whole book no...But somewhere here someone had the link, and that's how I seen it...But also google LHP name and her first chapter will be there...I haven't been on for so long,and I have to remember how to send a link....
 
(snipped for clarity, because this conversation was just getting too darn confusing with all the wrapped quotes)Okay, ignoring (for the time being) the medical aspects and what others have said, think about exactly what was found around her neck when the coroner first saw her (since this is the first documentation we have of it). How do you think it was used to strangle her? Was it simply pulled, was it somehow twisted, or was it used like a tourniquet (as some have suggested) with the stick placed under the cord and turned to tighten it?

I see there being too many problems with each of these methods for any of them to be possible.

Hmmm, well, it sounds like you have an interesting theory about this.

From the photos, it appears to me that it tightens as it's pulled. I seem to recall it had to be cut off. (though perhaps that is to save the knot for specialist examination and not because it couldn't be untied - but the point is it couldn't be loosened while preserving the knot) The AR states asphyxiation as the cause of death (along with the trauma to the head) So, I'll have to go with door number 1 - it was pulled.

Actually (and this is important to note), what we learned from Kolar was that one doctor (Dr. Lucy Rorke-Adams) expressed her opinion that it could have been that long. Of all the doctors’ opinions I have read, she is the only one who felt that it could have been that long, and she based her opinion on the pictures and the brain sections she was provided. So her opinion was based on her knowledge and the quality of the specimens she was provided. Since you’ve said you’re not inclined toward studying the medical aspects, I won’t go into the details (and actually it’s too complicated to try and address here), but keep your mind open to the fact that she may have been wrong on the length of time between the two injuries.
Thank you for pointing out that it's just one opinion. I will remain open as to the time between the blow and the garrotte.

Remaining open of course still allows for the 90 minutes to be right. One thing that has always troubled me is that while I think the blow to the head was accidental (could be wrong, but I lean towards accident) the garrotte was deliberate. It always struck me as odd that someone accidentally hit her then in short order decided on murder. The 90 minutes allows for some thought and time to screw up one's courage to do the deed.

I agree on that. This was not a case of EA -- for the enjoyment of anyone.
Good. Then we probably agree that the garrotte was not for the purpose of staging some kinky sex murder. It may or may not be staging, but (imo) it's not meant to make anyone think about a sex killer.


There are more than two sides on which to jump from this fence, and you don’t have to jump until you feel you know what’s on each side.
Agreed. So why do you think someone would, as you suggest, wrap a cord around her neck to strangle her after having struck the head blow? She was already unconscious at that point. If the intent was to kill her, why not some other more effective method, or as you say, just whack her again? The knife was there. She was already unconscious, so why not just pinch her nose and hold her mouth, or stab her? Why this freaky, never-before-seen “garrote”?
The knife would be too messy.

I basically lean towards the simple answer - the garrotte ensures her death. If I'm understanding the knot correctly, it does not loosen at all when tension is released. IOWs the more it's pulled the tighter it gets, and it doesn't loosen up. It guarantees she'll die of asphyxiation. There are other methods as effective, but none more so, as far as I can see.

Pinching the nose and covering the mouth would require attention to her breathing. That might fail, as the signs of life could become so faint one might think she's dead before she really is. Also it requires some sustained effort for a few minutes. The garrotte, if I'm correct about the knot, is a sort of "set it and forget it" method.

If we speculate on how a parent (or brother, to be fair to BDI theory) would kill a daughter (or sister) the garrotte might not seem so freaky.

A gun would alert the neighbors, and though many people have guns, relatively few have silencers on them. Also a gun makes a heck of a mess and one can't pretend to have slept until nearly 6am if she was shot at say midnight. It's one thing not the hear the scream that may never have occurred. It's another not the hear a gunshot.

The knife, as mentioned, is also quite messy - though quiet.

She could have been hung, which is really just a variation on the "asphyxiation" theme.

If hit in the head repeatedly, she'd probably die, but that might also get messy, and it leaves some uncertainty - unless taken to the point where the head is stove in.

She could have been drowned, but that might not fit the planned scenario - if the killer was thinking ahead.

I should add that I'm not in the camp that says this was a super sophisticated killing device that only a CIA trained "double naught" spy could make. This was a piece of rope with a simple knot. In fact, I'll go a bit further and say that's it's not very "sailorly" (if that's a word). Sailors usually prefer knots that are both secure and easy to untie.

I'm not quite sure what to make of your comment that the garrotte was "never before seen".

Sadly, yes. Sooner or later, hopefully, someone who lives in Colorado will file for FOI status, and maybe we'll have more evidence and insight into what happened.


We can hope.
 
Assuming that we do, at this point, think the use of the garrote was to "ensure death" of JB, and also assuming that it was one of the Ramseys in the house that night who used it, my only question is: in your own mind, which one of the three would have been the one most likely to have chosen it for the deed?
 
But somewhere I read that the knots on her wrist was loosely done so this part around the wrist could had been apart of staging since the garrote was the cause of death in the autopsy report...And if we assuming one of the Ramsey's in this deed I would have to say JR...Cause to me if someone had knowledge of knots, they sure make it look like someone that didn't know anything about knots if we was staging...I still believe JonBenet knew her killer...
 
Assuming that we do, at this point, think the use of the garrote was to "ensure death" of JB, and also assuming that it was one of the Ramseys in the house that night who used it, my only question is: in your own mind, which one of the three would have been the one most likely to have chosen it for the deed?

if the garotte was the murder weapon and was used to ensure JB's death why did he/they leave it there?it's a huge risk ...this was always a huge problem as far as I am concerned.if this was premeditated then it means that whoever did it used gloves and put them on BEFORE assembling it...and I don't think BR would have thought of using gloves....I don't think PR would have used her OWN paintbrush,that would have been pretty stupid!for now I tend to believe that the garotte was meant to cover up for a manual strangulation but am not sure
 
So far there was only one chapter that got out and it really wasn't done in good taste..When I get back to my home computer,I will send the link...But for the whole book no...But somewhere here someone had the link, and that's how I seen it...But also google LHP name and her first chapter will be there...I haven't been on for so long,and I have to remember how to send a link....

@bold
ITA...it made me sick....it's all about gossip when it comes to LHP IMO....that's why I NEVER considered her to be a reliable witness....and I won't read her book either...yeah,the fact that the Ramsey's weren't close (intimacy) is important but we already saw&observed that (their behavior)...and I really don't need the spicy details re their sex life,it's low to bring that up and it doesn't help me understand the case better either
 
Assuming that we do, at this point, think the use of the garrote was to "ensure death" of JB, and also assuming that it was one of the Ramseys in the house that night who used it, my only question is: in your own mind, which one of the three would have been the one most likely to have chosen it for the deed?



I'm assuming it ensured death, but I'm open to other ideas.

Which R chose it? There is nothing about the garrotte itself, imo, that tells us that. We must use other info to decide who the killer was.

If it was pulled, as I speculate it was, then the handle may have assisted with that. I'll throw a bone to the IDIs and say that a handle would help a small person with weak hands. IMO a 9 year old could have pulled the rope tight w/o the handle, but the handle might have helped.

It's possible the handle was added later, though there is no way to know that. More time was spent on the knot on the handle end than on the knot at her neck.


otg apparently has a problem with it being pulled and it will be interesting to see what he has to say about that.

It wasn't twisted. i don't think it was used as a tourniquet either.

For me this is similar to the suitcase or fibers - one can make up a scenario that is consistent with the evidence, but another person can make up a different scenario, equally consistent. It won't help us solve the case and we are likely to see it from an angle that conforms to the theory we already hold.
 
Does anyone think that a pillow could have been used to suffocate JB? Would the Coroner know if she was suffocated? Where did the blood on the pillow come from? BPD most likely did not look to see if any of the R's had any scratches or wounds. Maybe that could be why they got rid of BR so fast. Maybe the blood on the pillow did not come from JB.
 
Does anyone think that a pillow could have been used to suffocate JB? Would the Coroner know if she was suffocated? Where did the blood on the pillow come from? BPD most likely did not look to see if any of the R's had any scratches or wounds. Maybe that could be why they got rid of BR so fast. Maybe the blood on the pillow did not come from JB.

this is exactly what I was thinking about earlier today but then I went to check the A Report again and it says asphyxia by strangulation which IMO rules out JB being suffocated with a pillow,palm,etc...am not an expert but I guess a coroner can tell the difference?hope those who know this stuff better can explain
 
I read somewhere that it belonged to JB,that's why the cops were asking PR about JB having nose bleeds or something
 
and all the rest of the abrasions and contusions (back,leg,right shoulder,face)....I think she fought back....she wasn't just hit on the head ...the more I think about it and the more I look at these photos....someone was pretty angry with JB...this wasn't an accident...it was rage
 
(respectfully snipped, and rearranged for clarity)

The sexual assault was not staged. An attempt was made to cover up the sexual assault.

Meyer never said she was "digitally penetrated". He said (according to accounts, because he didn't write it in the AR) that she had been assaulted in a way "consistent with digital penetration". While it doesn't mean she couldn't have been, it does not mean that there were two assaults with two different objects. The paintbrush being used alone would cause injuries "consistent with digital penetration".

And as far as anything Spitz has to say, you should just learn to ignore. He's a publicity hound and an idiot. He claimed to have special insight in this case because of information that had been shared with him. Yet since he claimed that and made statements publicly that have since been proven to be flat-out falsehoods (due to information that has been leaked since he made the statements), you can absolutely ignore this idiot.

(Did I leave any doubt about how low an opinion I have of Spitz? Do I really have to go into what he did in a few recent high-profile murder cases as an "expert witness"?)



That's too much of an assumption, UKG.



(See above reference to Spitz.)



There is nothing redacted from the AR. Originally there was when it was first released, but a judge long ago ordered that the original AR be released without the portions that had been redacted from the public at first. You can even see a scanned copy of the actual report at Smoking Gun, so you can see for yourself that there is nothing redacted.

(Again you refer to Spitz! See above reference to Spitz, and take a look at my avatar.)

otg,
The paintbrush being used alone would cause injuries "consistent with digital penetration".
Nope, I disagree. Coroner Meyer used the phrase "digital penetration" deliberately. Note he did not say assaulted with a blunt instrument or "Assaulted with a cylindrical object" etc. When he uses the term consistent he is saying he can see no reason for not assuming JonBenet was assaulted by someones finger.


The reason for this assumption is temporal since I assume the paintbrush was employed long after JonBenet had been sexually assaulted and whacked on the head.
That's too much of an assumption, UKG.
Well it will fall down if the paintbrush handle was used initially?

One interpretation of the forensic evidence is that someone sexually assaulted JonBenet and later someone either used the paintbrush handle or their finger to further assault JonBenet so transferring the splinter internally.
 
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceright.jpg

Looking at this photo (again,I am not an expert so everything I say is just my opinion and observations re injuries)...I just don't think all those marks around/ below the ligature are caused by the garotte...

madeleine,
I agree that and the head injury seem to be out of place in nearly every theory I've read, or simply not mentioned.

I reckon the ligature was used to mask what you are referring to. Similarly someone may have injured her with the paintbrush to mask any digital penetration?


.
 
otg,

Nope, I disagree. Coroner Meyer used the phrase "digital penetration" deliberately. Note he did not say assaulted with a blunt instrument or "Assaulted with a cylindrical object" etc. When he uses the term consistent he is saying he can see no reason for not assuming JonBenet was assaulted by someones finger.

Well it will fall down if the paintbrush handle was used initially?

One interpretation of the forensic evidence is that someone sexually assaulted JonBenet and later someone either used the paintbrush handle or their finger to further assault JonBenet so transferring the splinter internally.

I go back again to the 3-fold assault on JB.
1) Sexual assault which caused other physical battery as a control attempt against her struggling, which included some form of strangulation.
2) A bash to the head during the struggle to render her helpless against her attacker.
3) The final ligature strangulation which had a dual purpose: a) to end the unconscious life that did not surrender to the previous force of the blow to the head who could never be allowed to live to reveal her attacker, and b) to deflect from the initial rage strangulation/battery assault by making it look like someone who intended to "behead" JB was just as heinous as he threatened (becoming one of the fictitious kidnappers in the RN).

I agree there could have been an additional sexual assault rendered while JB was unconcious from the head bash as an attempt to "worsen" the looks of the severity of the attack, with the hope it would cover any other signs of former molestation as well.
 
I go back again to the 3-fold assault on JB.
1) Sexual assault which caused other physical battery as a control attempt against her struggling, which included some form of strangulation.
2) A bash to the head during the struggle to render her helpless against her attacker.
3) The final ligature strangulation which had a dual purpose: a) to end the unconscious life that did not surrender to the previous force of the blow to the head who could never be allowed to live to reveal her attacker, and b) to deflect from the initial rage strangulation/battery assault by making it look like someone who intended to "behead" JB was just as heinous as he threatened (becoming one of the fictitious kidnappers in the RN).

I agree there could have been an additional sexual assault rendered while JB was unconcious from the head bash as an attempt to "worsen" the looks of the severity of the attack, with the hope it would cover any other signs of former molestation as well.

midwest mama,
I agree with much of what you write.

I think events unfolded something like this:

1. Sexual Assault.

2. Asphyxiation by accident.

3. Head blow rendered antemortem to stage a reason for JonBenet being unconcious.

4. Digital or paintbrush assault internally to mask event 1.

5. Ligature asphyxiation rendered to mask event 2.

When we look at JonBenet in the wine-celler I think we are viewing a staged crime-scene.

This was the R's plan: they sought to minimise the forensic trail and thus create plausible deniability?


.
 
Some of the marks on her neck are petechial hemorrhages. The other marks are the red ligature furrows and one white circumferential mark, which had to have been made postmortem. There were no larks made by her fingernails, despite the misinformation over the years.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
145
Guests online
2,399
Total visitors
2,544

Forum statistics

Threads
601,978
Messages
18,132,744
Members
231,201
Latest member
ThatMeryl
Back
Top