... yes thats the point...the parts ....
Harley in the Hangar: Chop Shop?
- Thread starter bessie
- Start date
Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread
- Status
musicaljoke
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 20, 2013
- Messages
- 7,325
- Reaction score
- 38,812
I wonder how often a mechanic would see parts with the VIN defaced. Is this common, or would finding such a thing be Red Alert? Any mechanics onboard?
There is no offence stemming from the possession of a defaced VIN. There is an offence in possession of property obtained by crime. In establishing whether a part or a vehicle has been obtained by illegal means a defaced VIN makes it the responsibility of the person in the possession of the item to establish that they are the legitimate owner and the defacing of the VIN was for a legitimate reason (as per CC 353.1(3)).
So, let's get this straight already: 1) The possession of a vehicle with a defaced VIN is not an offence. (The possession of property obtained by crime is). 2) The defacing of a VIN is an offence unless done for a legitimate reason. 3) Having in a possession a vehicle or a part with a defaced VIN makes it incumbent on the holder to establish a legitimate provenance of the item.
Best,
J.
Archangel7
Verified Law Enforcement
- Joined
- May 15, 2013
- Messages
- 1,420
- Reaction score
- 16
BBM
It is an offense and you can be arrested without a warrant. Even under the Traffic Safety Act.
Again.....In R v Sandy 2007(see the bolded text at bottom)
[62] In the case of the Traffic Safety Act, police officers are authorized to arrest without warrant only with respect to specified offences. This power is governed by s. 169, which provides:
Arrest without warrant
169 (1) A peace officer may arrest a person without warrant if the peace officer, on reasonable and probable grounds, believes that
(a) the person has committed an offence in respect of any of the provisions set out in subsection (2), and
(b) the person
(i) will continue or repeat that offence if not arrested, or
(ii) has provided the peace officer with inadequate or questionable information as to the person’s identification.
(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), the following are the provisions for which a person may be arrested without a warrant:
(a) sections 51(a) and 94 relating to the operation of a motor vehicle without having a subsisting operator’s licence;
(b) section 52(1)(a) and (d) relating to the operation of a motor vehicle without having a subsisting certificate of registration;
(c) section 53(1)(b) relating to the displaying of a licence plate other than one authorized under this Act;
(d) section 61 relating to the defacing of licence plates;
(e) section 68(2)(a) relating to possession of a motor vehicle or serially numbered part,
(i) where a serial number or other authorized identifying number or mark is not displayed in the space provided for displaying that identification by the manufacturer, or
(ii) where the serial number has been removed, defaced, covered, altered or destroyed or become illegible;
Link to complete case...... http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highli...GljbGUgSWRlbnRpZmljYXRpb24gTnVtYmVyAAAAAAAAAQ
Let's just accept the law on defaced VINs and move on.
We were discussing Criminal Code, not Traffic Safety Act. So, you will have to show us where possession of a VIN is a criminal offence in Canada.
J.
Archangel7
Verified Law Enforcement
- Joined
- May 15, 2013
- Messages
- 1,420
- Reaction score
- 16
<modsnip> It states you can be arrested without warrant for what it specifically stated concerning VINs, EVEN under the Traffic Safety Act, which further supports and re enforces the fact it's a criminal act.
AND 354(2)CCC says so and was already posted earlier.
Having a vehicle with a missing/damage/defaced VIN is a criminal code violation in Canada. Obviously if you wrecked the vehicle AND the VIN became damaged without you knowing it, common sense would prevail.
Otherwise one would have to prove how one came about possession of a vehicle with altered VIN.
I'm looking forward to MSM asking LE how many "fewer than 10" stolen vehicles were recovered at the hangar. Also, I was wondering if the alleged theft of the biker's Harley has to be added to the charges against DM or if it and any other stolen vehicles found at the Hangar just automatically roll into the existing charge of theft over $5,000.
I have asked a mechanic and apparently so many parts come from wreckers that its often not possible to keep track of numbers.... also the rusting factor...etc
Archangel7
Verified Law Enforcement
- Joined
- May 15, 2013
- Messages
- 1,420
- Reaction score
- 16
Here's the wording and Case law references....
A count is the specific wording of the charge itself. It sets out the specifics of the allegation.
For a count to be valid under s. 581 it must apply to a single transaction and must contain a statement that the accused committed the offence specified.
A crown cannot join two or more offences into a single count on an information.[3]
↑ R. v. Saunders, 1990 CanLII 1131 (SCC), [1990] 1 S.C.R. 1020
R. v. Jimmy, [2004] B.C.J. No. 1555
R. v. Gauthier 1995 B.C.J. No. 1527 (C.A.)
R v. Katsiris 2008 BCCA 251
There is what's called duplicity and multiplicity but let's just say each count stands as a separate crime to be judged, and any other ruling of motion must not prejudice the defendant's ability to prepare and defend themselves on the count or if ruled so, counts(combined) IMO
<modsnip>
The fact that someone may be arrested without warrant by a traffic police officer does not make the legal issue criminal. I commented originally to state that the possession of a vehicle with a tampered-with or obliterated VIN is not a criminal offence in Canada. I stand by what I said and you have offered nothing to contradict that.
The case you brought forth is from an Alberta case relying on Alberta provincial Traffic Safety Act. It deals with offences in operating motor vehicles, not possession of property illegally obtained ! In Ontario, a similar act exists (Highway Traffic Act) and in so far as I have seen driving with a VIN removed is not enumerated as one of the offences for which an arrest without warrant can be made by a police officer (subsection 217.(2)). At any rate, it's irrelevant whether it is or not as we are not discussing offences under provincial highway acts but offences under Canada's Criminal Code exhibited in the Bosma case. You seem to believe that being arrested automatically implies a criminal matter and a felony. Well, it does not !
The reason why to drive without a VIN is an offence subject to immediate arrest in some places has to do with enforcing highway safety (in this case having the positive means of identifying the vehicle in case of a serious accident), not primarily for preventing car theft.
J.
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2004
- Messages
- 10,700
- Reaction score
- 172
To the many posters here who ADD information and provide links to further the discussion...THANK YOU!
Good night all!
Good night all!
Is this really true? Can a police officer arrest someone for suspicion of something other than a criminal offence? I'm truly not trying to be disrespectful, Solo... just can't wrap my head around this concept.
Archangel7
Verified Law Enforcement
- Joined
- May 15, 2013
- Messages
- 1,420
- Reaction score
- 16
From 354 CCC
Obliterated vehicle identification number
(2) In proceedings in respect of an offence under subsection (1), evidence that a person has in his possession a motor vehicle the vehicle identification number of which has been wholly or partially removed or obliterated or a part of a motor vehicle being a part bearing a vehicle identification number that has been wholly or partially removed or obliterated is, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, proof that the motor vehicle or part, as the case may be, was obtained, and that such person had the motor vehicle or part, as the case may be, in his possession knowing that it was obtained,
(a) by the commission in Canada of an offence punishable by indictment; or
(b) by an act or omission anywhere that, if it had occurred in Canada, would have constituted an offence punishable by indictment.
I drove right past the hanger today on my way to a destination in north Waterloo...the wood chipper is still in the parking lot, just where is was in the news video. I guess that rules out the possibility that it was stolen (or used to dispose of evidence).
There were also two vehicles blocking the entrance, a white pickup and a blue car parked on angles across the road. My guess was private security.
There were also two vehicles blocking the entrance, a white pickup and a blue car parked on angles across the road. My guess was private security.
Were there any other vehicles around? Look like business as usual? Were there not reports in MSM a week or two ago about business resuming?
None that I noticed...but it was a quick drive-by and I was focused on the wood chipper.
Hrmmmm. Two men from Toronto and Brantford have been arrested and charged for motorcycle theft ($600K worth of motor cycles). This may have nothing to do with DM or MS, but alarm bells started ringing when I read this.
http://m.680news.com/2013/06/21/police-arrest-two-men-in-gta-motorcycle-theft-ring/
(I hope it's ok to post this - it doesn't name any names)
The ages of the men charged, the Brantford and TO connection and the fact that it was another theft ring has peaked my curiosity. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of this...MOO
http://m.680news.com/2013/06/21/police-arrest-two-men-in-gta-motorcycle-theft-ring/
(I hope it's ok to post this - it doesn't name any names)
The ages of the men charged, the Brantford and TO connection and the fact that it was another theft ring has peaked my curiosity. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of this...MOO
Other news agencies are saying that one of the men was from Bradford, not Brantford.
http://barrie.ctvnews.ca/bradford-man-charged-in-motorcycle-theft-ring-1.1335920
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/06/21/two-busted-in-alleged-gta-motorcycle-theft-ring
Good catch! York Regional Police arrested men from Bradford and Toronto.
http://www.yrp.ca/docs/press_releases/[2013-06-21] MOTORCYCLE THEFT RING SUSPECTS ARRESTED.pdf
Looks like a typo on 680's part.:blushing:
Last October, we had 4 vehicles go missing from driveways on my street in one night/morning. 2 2012Toyota Highlanders and 1 2013 Acura MDX and a 2012 BMW 6 series. The SUV were stolen between 9 pm and midnight, all on a quiet street...all loaded on to trailers. The BMW was stolen when the parents walked their child to school. We live in North Toronto where crime rates are low but theft is high. My neighbor got a call that they found her car in a storage container being shipped overseas. When she went to identify it, she was shocked that it was just a container of parts. For her untrained eye the only connection that she made was an orange skate lace on the floor of the container that had been on her sons hockey skates that had been in the car. No signs of anything else. In the end, apparently the dealership had a service person whom had access to private information of clients coming in for servicing and was working on the side for a "Russian mafia" connection. The Acura and BMW were just picked up because they saw them when coming by. It makes no sense to me but apparently the $$ was in the parts?
- Status