Harvard Professor Arrested--Gates Black in America

[oh_gal]

You make some excellent points, Rubelet. There are always two sides to every story, and I don't think we've heard either of them, totally.

 

[oh_gal]

I know it! So these Mayberry cops don't know when they see a distinguished black man; what kind of rubes are they? Seriously.

Methinks they would arrest Obama too, or Clarence Thomas.

I also presume that if he had been WHITE he never would have been arrested.

Forgive me for stating the obvious, Theonly1, but that type of attitude is also a form of racism.

 

[Theonly1]

I don't understand why there is so much being made of this. This man's neighbor reported a possible break-in. The police show up and ask for proof that this man was the owner of the house. What were they supposed to do? Take his word for it and leave? The man's neighbors who should have recognized him reported a break-in. He didn't have to act the way he did, and he wouldn't have been arrested. Instead of acting all high and mighty when asked to prove he lived there he should have just given them the proof and been glad police were doing their job protecting his house by checking out the report called in by his neighbor.

I can just imagine what would be said if the police had said ok, you say you live here so we'll just take your word for it and leave without checking your ID. The big story then would probably be that the police didn't protect the house because it was a black man's residence.

BTW, being educated doesn't automatically giv e you a pass to behave any way you want toward the police.

Hi Jack,

I understand what you're saying. However, once Gates provided his driver's license which logically had the same address as the house he was breaking into on it and his Harvard I.D. (showing he is a professor), the conversation should have been like this:

"Okay, Mr. Gates, it is obvious you live here. You know we have to come out when we get called out on these things. Sorry for the inconvenience."

Even if he's getting all huffy at this point. People are allowed to get all huffy with the police and it is not a crime to do so (while I don't ADVOCATE it). I understand how Mr. Gates might have gotten really irritated once he proved to them (with his d/l that he lived at the house).

As I understand it, the police officer did not like that Mr. Gates asked him for his badge number and supervisor.

 

[Mendara]

snipped by me...

Couldn't we also look at it from the other side as well? In this day and age people of colour are being pulled over, searched, interrogated, arrested, etc. based only on the colour of their skin, based on the fact they fit a flawed profile of "criminal" deeply rooted in discrimination and racism rather than fact. Maybe Mr. Gates, after showing his driver's license and identifying himself as the resident of the house, got upset that a police officer kept questioning him without reason? Thus, he concluded he was being profiled based on the colour of his skin and was not going to let it go unnamed.

The case you mention about an an old woman being tazered is totally insane (though I am not familiar the case), but injustice is injustice no matter how the scenario relates to other incidents.

Firstly - I am Puerto rican - my brother is adopted and he is black and is 6 feet tall and over 200 lbs. He is the sweetest kid ever, but women and men cross the street when they see him coming, he is the profile, however he is 19 and he does NOT blame the people crossing the street to avoid him - he blames the actual criminals - because if a cop gets a description of a black man who just mugged someone - guess WHAT PEOPLE - he is NOT going to be pulling over white guys. He is going to question my brother and other black men who fit the profile of the actual person they are looking for.

My cousin is a police officer he tells me how dangerous this job can be - how every single time he even looks at a black man - he is immediately called a racist, he is cursed at, he is being threatened, spit at - even if his job is to find a black suspect who looks like the ten guys he is trying to sort out..it gets violent just trying to question them.

I HIGHLY DOUBT if The highly regarded well educated Mr. Gates would have laughed with officers and told them - Ah guess my neighbors thought I was breakign into my own home, here is my IDs thank you for checking it out" that he would have been arrested. Instead I bet he yelled screamed, cursed and made a huge scene (how very educated of him) and the police officers decided that he was disorderly - there is no law for screaming at a police officer you are right, but if you out right refuse to cooperate then it shouldn't be okay - because then we have real criminals doing the same - so which is it? I bet at no time did Mr. Gates brign his tone down and quiet the situation - I bet Mr. Gates loves being in the news.

On a different note: If you are screaming in a public place or in your home and your arms are flying everywhere and you are looking like you are going to cause some damage to yourself or others - expect to be tased. Or shot - have your pick. Cops don't know you or what you are capable of.

 

[Theonly1]

\On a different note: If you are screaming in a public place or in your home and your arms are flying everywhere and you are looking like you are going to cause some damage to yourself or others - expect to be tased. Or shot - have your pick. Cops don't know you or what you are capable of.

Hi Mendara,

If one feels threatened, our self-defense laws only allow like for like. So unless Gates made threatening remarks to the police (like I'm gonna kill you) then they can't draw down on Gates. He can bark at them, ask them for their badge numbers, have eyes that are popping right out of his head, engage them in tit for tat, verbal sparring, etc. They can't just tase him and draw down on him (especially once he has provided his DL with his home address on it and his Harvard I.D.).

If Gates got mad and yelled at the cops (and I don't know that he yelled but I am sure he was angry) then the cops still did not have cause to arrest him for that. I think you can be as disorderly as you want in your own home--Gates was not in a public place.

Respectfully, what I think really pissed off the police was the verbal sparring and the request for the badge number and supervisor. Once the police knew that they could not arrest him for breaking and entering they needed to leave and not further engage Gates in verbal sparring. But sometimes when tempers flare, especially with males, they don't want to back down.

I have a relative who is a police officer so I am not anti-police.

If there was a scintilla of evidence that the arrest was viable then the charges would not have been dropped.

 

[Mendara]

Hi Mendara,

If one feels threatened, our self-defense laws only allow like for like. So unless Gates made threatening remarks to the police (like I'm gonna kill you) then they can't draw down on Gates. He can bark at them, ask them for their badge numbers, have eyes that are popping right out of his head, engage them in tit for tat, verbal sparring, etc. They can't just tase him and draw down on him (especially once he has provided his DL with his home address on it and his Harvard I.D.).

If Gates got mad and yelled at the cops (and I don't know that he yelled but I am sure he was angry) then the cops still did not have cause to arrest him for that. I think you can be as disorderly as you want in your own home--Gates was not in a public place.

Respectfully, what I think really pissed off the police was the verbal sparring and the request for the badge number and supervisor. Once the police knew that they could not arrest him for breaking and entering they needed to leave and not further engage Gates in verbal sparring. But sometimes when tempers flare, especially with males, they don't want to back down.

I have a relative who is a police officer so I am not anti-police.

If there was a scintilla of evidence that the arrest was viable then the charges would not have been dropped.

Oh no - my taser remark was on a different note not about Gates - it was to the poster I quoted. I do not think gates needed to be tased! ha! That would have sent Al Sharpton into a fit.

A quick story about Al Sharpton - when I was a little girl in east new york brooklyn and Al Sharpton was having a march right in front of my apartment building for that girl who claimed to have been raped by 5 marines or something which turned out to be a lie. I ran out into the street and up to him (I was about 11) I think. And I said something like "right on" - he looked at me and told me that I would never understand and waived me away. I am a light skinned Puerto Rican - he must have thought I was white and I was crushed - ever since then that man makes me sick. PURE SICK.

ahhh end of rant

I bet Gates got arrested for being an a-hole not for being black.

 

[Openmind]

For me, the crux of the matter is who got pissy first. The police had to respond to the call. Truthfully, I am impressed they got there that quick. I don't think race had anything to do with this since the call came from a neighbor that did not recognize the owner. The police would have been negligent if they had not asked for ID, and this is where real problem begins. If Gates took that as an insult, he shouldn't have. To assume everyone knows who you are and that they will just take your word is foolish. I could see this happening to any male in this situation. How you handle it is what escalates the situation. If this happened to a white guy, and it could have, no one would give it a second thought. He would have been just some old white dude that should have kept his mouth closed.


The policeman that arrested Gates is not apologizing.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/07/cop-in-gates-arrest-says-he-will-not-apologize.html

 

[oh_gal]

(Originially posted by Theonly1)
Respectfully, what I think really pissed off the police was the verbal sparring and the request for the badge number and supervisor. Once the police knew that they could not arrest him for breaking and entering they needed to leave and not further engage Gates in verbal sparring. But sometimes when tempers flare, especially with males, they don't want to back down.
(Bolded by me) I agree!


If there was a scintilla of evidence that the arrest was viable then the charges would not have been dropped. [/quote]

(Bolded by me)
Unless LE decided to cut their losses and avoid further bad publicity.

Police can arrest someone who is yelling at them and getting in their face -- if it is impeding an investigation. It's a judgement call on the part of
the police officer. Like you, I also come from a LE family, so may I'm a little biased.

(Respectfully snipped by me)

 

[oh_gal]

Oh no - my taser remark was on a different note not about Gates - it was to the poster I quoted. I do not think gates needed to be tased! ha! That would have sent Al Sharpton into a fit.

A quick story about Al Sharpton - when I was a little girl in east new york brooklyn and Al Sharpton was having a march right in front of my apartment building for that girl who claimed to have been raped by 5 marines or something which turned out to be a lie. I ran out into the street and up to him (I was about 11) I think. And I said something like "right on" - he looked at me and told me that I would never understand and waived me away. I am a light skinned Puerto Rican - he must have thought I was white and I was crushed - ever since then that man makes me sick. PURE SICK.

ahhh end of rant

I bet Gates got arrested for being an a-hole not for being black.

Just for the record, I don't think Gates should have been tased, either...actually, I completely forgot the little old lady was tased (or tasered, which is it?) -- I was only commenting on her ranting and raving and being arrested due to it.

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

From what I've heard of this story, it is the professor that is the racist, throwing out racist slurs, saying everything is racist. He's the one thinking everything in life is about color.

The officer was the one responding to a break in. What would have happened if the officer just said ok and left when someone really was breaking in.

 

[Openmind]

Oh no - my taser remark was on a different note not about Gates - it was to the poster I quoted. I do not think gates needed to be tased! ha! That would have sent Al Sharpton into a fit.

And I said something like "right on" - he looked at me and told me that I would never understand and waived me away. I am a light skinned Puerto Rican - he must have thought I was white and I was crushed - ever since then that man makes me sick. PURE SICK.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sadly, culturall[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]y, it seems broad assumptions are made about each other based on race, gender, religion, geographical location, occupation, and people are quite [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]dismissive of others based on their presumed "story" or they become totally enamored. And once you pick up the victim's cause, no one can be a bigger victim than me. Instead of being more empathetic, people become more prejudice. IMHO -- Bias on any side of an issue is wrong. [/FONT]

Respectfully, what I think really pissed off the police was the verbal sparring and the request for the badge number and supervisor. Once the police knew that they could not arrest him for breaking and entering they needed to leave and not further engage Gates in verbal sparring. But sometimes when tempers flare, especially with males, they don't want to back down.

I agree with this -- more of a male issue. And, yes, that is a biased comment.

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

(Originially posted by Theonly1)


Police can arrest someone who is yelling at them and getting in their face -- if it is impeding an investigation. It's a judgement call on the part of
the police officer.
(Respectfully snipped by me)

Police officers can't just allow people to be that disrespectful. Sometimes you have to teach someone that their behavior is not appropriate.

The man should have been thanking the officer for coming to his community to make sure no one was breaking into his home. He should have thanked the officer for taking the time to protect his residence.

 

[STEADFAST]

Police officers can't just allow people to be that disrespectful. Sometimes you have to teach someone that their behavior is not appropriate.

The man should have been thanking the officer for coming to his community to make sure no one was breaking into his home. He should have thanked the officer for taking the time to protect his residence.

Once Gates showed LE his I.D., the officers should have apologized for the mistake, dropped the matter and left -- just the way they would have done if the same thing had happened with, say, me.

I wouldn't be grateful or gracious if the police entered my home acting all confrontational and aggressive because my neighbor couldn't even recognize me and called the cops. What is the point of the Constitution if LE is allowed to storm into your house at any time and demand you prove who you are?

But, see, that wouldn't happen to me, because as a middle-aged white woman, I could be crawling in the window and the police would begin with the assumption I was locked out and go from there with their investigating.

I think this incident had everything to do with race.

 

[rubelet]

On a different note: If you are screaming in a public place or in your home and your arms are flying everywhere and you are looking like you are going to cause some damage to yourself or others - expect to be tased. Or shot - have your pick. Cops don't know you or what you are capable of.

This is completely messed-up. And I don't understand it at all. How much damage could one do to oneself or another by waving their hands and yelling? Definitely not enough to justify lethal (or potentially lethal - tazers are often deadly). But that's kindof getting off topic. It's not really about what could have occurred in the situation. And I guess it's not about my opinion on force. :waitasec:

As has been mentioned, the problem might be that Henry Louis Gates asked for the officer's identification. The report only said that Gates was arrested for "loud and tumultuous behaviour in a public place." I am not certain why his house was a public place. And the officer only stated he was confused by Gates' behaviour. He did not report feeling threatened.

I don't know, it just seems like the whole situation escalted unnecessary. Ideally, Gates would have kept his cool but this is an individual whose entire life's work is analysing the issue of race in America, he is the director of Harvard's centre of African and African American Research. This is likely a person as highly in tune and aware of race as police officers. If we can look at the situation from the officer's point of view, I think we should also be able to look at it from Gates' point of view. He is someone politically and socially engage with issues of discrimination and racism.

Each one of us has some perspective that might define us as priviledged or opressed. Some are visible, others are not. But those issues are intersect emotion and politics. I guess I was just trying to think about it from a both points of view.

 

[rubelet]

Once Gates showed LE his I.D., the officers should have apologized for the mistake, dropped the matter and left -- just the way they would have done if the same thing had happened with, say, me.

I wouldn't be grateful or gracious if the police entered my home acting all confrontational and aggressive because my neighbor couldn't even recognize me and called the cops. What is the point of the Constitution if LE is allowed to storm into your house at any time and demand you prove who you are?

But, see, that wouldn't happen to me, because as a middle-aged white woman, I could be crawling in the window and the police would begin with the assumption I was locked out and go from there with their investigating.

I think this incident had everything to do with race.

I agree completely!! This is such a wonderfully expressed summary of the issues in this case. :clap:

 

[Openmind]

But, see, that wouldn't happen to me, because as a middle-aged white woman, I could be crawling in the window and the police would begin with the assumption I was locked out and go from there with their investigating.

I think this incident had everything to do with race.

It is a good assumption but then the police would probably assume the neighbor would recognize the white lady crawling into the window was the owner of the house.

 

[MCDRAW]

This same thing happened to my brother who is white. Of course, because he is white there was absolutely no media attention.

 

[opme]

For an obviously intelligent and educated man .. he certainly acted like an *ss.. What was the point of his wanting a badge number .. to report or comlain about an officer who was doing his job? Who had he not questioned a potential B&E subject thouroughly would have been failing to do his job..

For cripes sake the man in stead of being happy that the police were going to the lengths of making sure there was no crime in progress and his property was safe. Instead he wants to report the officer for questioning him.. and then acts like an *ss.. sorry regardless your skin color it would have had the outcome or should be

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

I think the real question is the order that things happened. I believe the professor when he says the police came into his residence. i believe the professor when he says he showed his ID and I believe him when he says he was arrested. Is what you don't hear from him is the order that things happened. A person that instigates the situation intentionally leaves out details like "it was 10 minutes later after i threw out all sorts or racial accusiations that I showed my ID" He never says "as soon as the officer showed up, i showed him my ID and we established that the home was his.

Putting together the ambiguity of the professor and the fact that he doesn't state he immediately showed ID, or was orderly, etc. and combining that with the officer's comments I come up with the following story:

Police are called with break-in and show up. Police confront professor. Professor doesn't co-operate and starts using racial accusations. Professor finally shows ID and establishes his home, and continues to be confrontational. Professor gets arrested due to bad behavior.

That is the way i read the story.

 

[hockeymom]

I live in a town where teenage boys( of any race) are profiled. I have told my kids, no matter how unfair it may seem,keep your mouth shut and be respectful of LE. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. May not be right,but it usually works. If you are not doing anything wrong,they let you go. If you mouth off,well,you might get in trouble. A Harvard professor should know better.